Humiliation/Embarrassment

[Allyourbase]

(...) i am never made to feel the object of (female, mind you) sexual desire. Other things than sexual desire that just might lead to sex, sure (like pity, curiosity, amusement, loneliness, sadism or desperation - oh, yeah, or love, which is definitely wonderful, don't get me wrong on that account). But not desire.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I used girls instead of women. Boys are subjected to masculinization very early in life. "Big boys don't cry", "Men don't cry", "Stop crying, you're acting like a girl", "Stand up for yourself, don't be a girl".

Whereas with girls it happen later in life, early they don't see anything wrong with a boy being like they are. Although girls at that age are well on their way to being feminized.

Oh, I hadn't spotted the deliberate use of 'girls', that makes sense. My personal experience with the tolerance of 'girls' (or young kids in general) is pretty fucked up, so I'm of the school who doesn't think kids are ever innocent. But I'm just bitter.

Oh and insert off topic snarky comment about feminizing and pink princess toy aisles here.

Oh and, if you ask me, it's men that are all the sexy and women who are meh, they're just meatblobs, whatever. (Speaking from a binary perspective, obvs.)

*pffffwhaha* meatblobs...

That is going to get stuck in my head. I bet I will now look at a perfectly enjoyable pair of b00bs and my head will randomly say: 'meatblobs, whatever'. Probably mine.

Men, yes. And butches too. Le hawt.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Yes, from that first-person point of view, there is nothing sexy about /being/ male. As in, i am male and straight (well, <2 on the Kinsey scale), and i am never made to feel the object of (female, mind you) sexual desire. Other things than sexual desire that just might lead to sex, sure (like pity, curiosity, amusement, loneliness, sadism or desperation - oh, yeah, or love, which is definitely wonderful, don't get me wrong on that account). But not desire. i'm willing to allow that it may be nothing more than the result of cultural programming, but it's my life experience.

Sexual desire from other men is another question, entirely. And, i have to admit, not entirely unwelcome. Feeling desired is wonderful (the more so when it's so rare), even if you have little desire for the one making you feel that way.

i figured i was setting myself up to be called un-fuckably ugly with this one. But, i had to be honest and clear about the point i was making. And, it's not like i haven't long since grappled with that kind of self-esteem issue.

Flip the genders, and my guess is that there are plenty of straight, conventionally unattractive females who would say the same thing about themselves.

There are a lot - because our cultural ideals are so absurd, a great many, indeed - of women who feel they are physically less attractive than they should be or want to be (and there are industries that make billions playing on those feelings). But, even the least conventionally attractive women get hit on if they put themselves out there and set their standards low enough (and sometimes even if they do neither). They will likely be very unappealing men - losers with nothing to offer but their not-too-discerning lust - but being the object of sexual desire is a universal part of the female experience in our culture. Indeed our society tells women that men's bad behavior towards them is /their own fault/, for being objects of desire (even as it tells them they must try to meet an impossible standard of beauty).

Decades ago, I was a young, straight, male athlete with reasonably fortunate genetics regarding hair and face. From that first-person point of view, I'd say straight women do feel purely physical desire, and express it, though they're usually more subtle than guys. Probably because society frowns on blatant expression of female urges, especially in relation to strangers.

I don't doubt that young ladies find athletes attractive. "Attractive" for a man in our cultural quagmire, though, is not the same thing as "object of sexual desire."

i also figured that someone would point out that there are men out there figuratively beating the ladies off with a stick. Yeah, there are, there are men surrounded by women eager to put out in order to bask in their status, acquire a little intimacy, or whatever.


Hm... to clarify "object of desire." To a man, a woman is not just a sex-object that he can use to gratify his sexual desire, she's also a sex-object that inspires that desire (and, yes, to a less reprehensible man she's also a human being deserving of love and respect, but that's not germane atm). To a woman, a man might be a means of achieving sexual gratification - though readily-available mechanical aids are a much more dependable, less dangerous means of doing the same - but he's not something that inspires that need.

(...)i am never made to feel the object of (female, mind you) sexual desire. Other things than sexual desire that just might lead to sex, sure (like pity, curiosity, amusement, loneliness, sadism or desperation - oh, yeah, or love, which is definitely wonderful, don't get me wrong on that account). But not desire.

Thanks. It is kinda ironic that part of what i'm doing in this discussion is complaining that, while i have love, commitment, and intimacy, i don't feel objectified enough. It's strange what human beings can "need" to feel "fulfilled."

 

[JMohegan]

i figured i was setting myself up to be called un-fuckably ugly. But, i had to be honest and clear about the point i was making. At least you were polite and subtle about implying it.

And, it's not like i haven't long since grappled with that kind of self-esteem issue.

There are a lot - because our cultural ideals are so absurd, a great many, indeed - of women who feel they are physically less attractive than they should be or want to be (and there are industries that make billions playing on those feelings). But, even if the least conventionally attractive women get hit on if they put themselves out there and set their standards low enough (and sometimes even if they do neither). They will likely be very unappealing men - losers with nothing to offer but their not-too-discerning lust - but being the object of sexual desire is a universal part of the female experience in our culture. Indeed our society tells women that men's bad behavior towards them is /their own fault/, for being objects of desire (even as it tells them they must try to meet an impossible standard of beauty).

I agree with your last sentence, but not with the bold.

Women in our culture who are too old, too fat, or too genetically unfortunate are routinely mocked or just plain ignored. But if they somehow "set their standards low enough" to fuck "very unappealing men", are the very unappealing men not then getting fucked as well?

On a related note, I found this clip fascinating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xPAat-T1uhE

I don't doubt that young ladies find athletes attractive. "Attractive" for a man in our cultural quagmire, though, is not the same thing as "object of sexual desire."

i also figured that someone would point out that there are men out there figuratively beating the ladies off with a stick. Yeah, they're are, there are me surrounded by women eager to put out in order to bask in their status, acquire a little intimacy, or whatever.


Hm... to clarify "object of desire." To a man, a woman is not just a sex-object that he can use to gratify his sexual desire, she's also a sex-object that inspires that desire (and, yes, to a less reprehensible man she's also a human being deserving of love and respect, but that's not germane atm). To a woman, a man might be a means of achieving sexual gratification - though readily-available mechanical aids are a much more dependable, less dangerous means of doing the same - but he's not something that inspires that need.

I appreciate the clarification, but still disagree. I believe that men absolutely can, and do, inspire that need in a straight female. But of course, I defer on this issue to females themselves.

 

[BrightlyGo]

BrightlyGo, it's not that msubs don't exist-- on the contrary, they exist with such force and power as any other man. It's just, it seems to me, that the combination of that force + the incredible desire to do away with it that makes people so uncomfortable, and (because, as in Stella's sig essay, lots of self-identified msubs are more just mbottoms) the fdom image so rigid.

So msubs definitely exist, but they're not real?

Thanks.

When i say the msub "doesn't exist," i mean figuratively, within the relationship dynamic: after the power-exchange, he has nothing to offer - because (presumably due to the sexism of our society), neither he nor his Domme can acknowledge that he has any value as a sex object.

Obviously, there are many self-identified msubs out there, looking to be topped (another factor that - supply & demand, y'know - makes us undesirable).

Women in our culture who are too old, too fat, or too genetically unfortunate are routinely mocked or just plain ignored. But if they somehow "set their standards low enough" to fuck "very unappealing men", are the very unappealing men not then getting fucked as well?

Fucked, yes, desired, no. And, i think there's enough guys drooling over SSBBW porn to illustrate that no, there is no woman too fat to be the object of sexual desire. There's also septuagenarian cougars out there who have no trouble getting dates.

I appreciate the clarification, but still disagree. I believe that men absolutely can, and do, inspire that need in a straight female. But of course, I defer on this issue to females themselves.

i'll accept that it's a possibility (it certainly seems like it should be), but i'm afraid that if it is, it's one that our culture successfully suppresses.

 

[JMohegan]

Fucked, yes, desired, no. And, i think there's enough guys drooling over SSBBW porn to illustrate that no, there is no woman too fat to be the object of sexual desire. There's also septuagenarian cougars out there who have no trouble getting dates.

i'll accept that it's a possibility (it certainly seems like it should be), but i'm afraid that if it is, it's one that our culture successfully suppresses.

Are we talking about societal norms, or the entirety of the species here?

Yes, of course there are guys with the hots for big women, old women, etc. But there's a reason they've got there own separate link on porn sites.

I'd say that our culture successfully suppresses the expression of female sexual desire, in most cases. That doesn't mean the desire doesn't exist (and it doesn't mean that men can't inspire it). What it means is that "nice girls" aren't supposed to be sexually aggressive or even open about their needs and urges. It's the slut/stud double standard.

 

[Dyslexicea]

On a related note, I found this clip fascinating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xPAat-T1uhE

I was intending to post this clip myself, I just wasn't sure where to post it. In my opinion all men and women need to watch.

Dustin Hoffman is a man with heart and he's sexy, very sexy, just not in a conventional way.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Are we talking about societal norms, or the entirety of the species here?

effdup western cultural norms, the counter-cultural/political movements opposing them, and how individuals do or don't tend to overcome them, i guess.

I'd say that our culture successfully suppresses the expression of female sexual desire, in most cases. That doesn't mean the desire doesn't exist (and it doesn't mean that men can't inspire it).

But it does make it pretty easy for a guy to go through life without ever perceiving that desire. OTOH, there's a committed attempt to countering the societal standard of beauty. That is, girls who don't feel so attractive will be told that they are, and that the standard is absurd.

It's the slut/stud double standard.

Yeah, there's that. I see cracks in that one, though. JLo, for instance, goes through men pretty quick, but isn't thought of as a slut. Tiger Woods got a lot of negative press for being so studly (cheating on his perfectly-conformed-to-standards-of-beauty wife).

 

[Dyslexicea]

Oh, I hadn't spotted the deliberate use of 'girls', that makes sense. My personal experience with the tolerance of 'girls' (or young kids in general) is pretty fucked up, so I'm of the school who doesn't think kids are ever innocent. But I'm just bitter.

Oh and insert off topic snarky comment about feminizing and pink princess toy aisles here.

My experiences would differ from yours. Until I moved to Miami just before I was sixteen to live with my Aunt, I attended an all girls prep school. Which I loved, at least until I came out and found out what some girls can be like but they treated me no worse than my father and my twin sister.

 

[welkin]

after the power-exchange, he has nothing to offer - because (presumably due to the sexism of our society), neither he nor his Domme can acknowledge that he has any value as a sex object.

Doesn't he still have a nice body and a nice cock that the domme can take advantage of? I occasionally switch and tell my boyfriend that he's just my human dildo. And even when he is bound and helpless and being humiliated by me, I do still very much love his cock.

In other words, men can indeed be the objects of desire... and in fact, it's something they want to be at times, e.g. most men, given the option, would prefer to think a woman is fucking him not out of pity but because she found him attractive, no?

 

[KoPilot]

So msubs definitely exist, but they're not real?

Thanks.

When i say the msub "doesn't exist," i mean figuratively, within the relationship dynamic: after the power-exchange, he has nothing to offer - because (presumably due to the sexism of our society), neither he nor his Domme can acknowledge that he has any value as a sex object.

No? Just a different sort of real than the world permits for fsubs.

Keeping a domesticated animal as a pet requires a different sort of arrangement than, say, a bear. Both are pets, just different.

And yeah, I would think that he's got tons to offer. Now I'm not a dom/me (I can play one on TV) but there's the whole cock thing, the labor thing, and the "I've got an exotic pet" thing. Plenty from where I'm standing.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Doesn't he still have a nice body and a nice cock that the domme can take advantage of?

i've often wondered what constitutes a 'nice' cock... i mean, clearly they're not all the same, but apart from size, are there any aesthetic factors or anything that y'all are into? Is it a matter of individual taste? Or is it like boobs (we have our preferences, but they're all still boobs)? Or is it that, as Xaviera Hollander said, "there are very few un-deserving cocks?"

I occasionally switch and tell my boyfriend that he's just my human dildo. And even when he is bound and helpless and being humiliated by me, I do still very much love his cock.

(i've heard the 'human dildo' thing before, but it's still hot, every time.) Anyway, i don't pretend to understand switches, but, looking at it from the outside, doesn't that mean that the power-exchange is relatively short-term? So you have a more complex dynamic, and his role as Dom is in your mind even when you've switched? Or am i completely off base, there?

and in fact, it's something they want to be at times, e.g. most men, given the option, would prefer to think a woman is fucking him not out of pity but because she found him attractive, no?

Well, YES. But, what makes a guy attractive tends to be things that translate to power - being strong or athletic, being wealthy or having status, being successful or accomplished - and power does not belong on the msub side of the relationship.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, YES. But, what makes a guy attractive tends to be things that translate to power - being strong or athletic, being wealthy or having status, being successful or accomplished - and power does not belong on the msub side of the relationship.

For god's sake, man, set aside the goofy 'power exchange' nomenclature and look at this from a real world perspective. This abstract power obsession is making you spout nonsense.

Who decides what happens, where & when? That person is the D. Who defers? That person is the s.

A close friend of mine is a female D, smart, petite, and very lovely, with a tall, strong, affluent, professionally successful, male s partner. She values him as a sex object... and as someone who obeys her household chore instructions... and as a conversationalist... and as a source of comfort when she's sad... and as someone who makes her laugh... and as someone who can move heavy furniture. Etc. You know, he's a PERSON.

 

[Dyslexicea]

i've often wondered what constitutes a 'nice' cock... i mean, clearly they're not all the same, but apart from size, are there any aesthetic factors or anything that y'all are into? Is it a matter of individual taste? Or is it like boobs (we have our preferences, but they're all still boobs)? Or is it that, as Xaviera Hollander said, "there are very few un-deserving cocks?"

Cocks, cocks, cocks or not cock at all, who cares no one has a relationship with a cock, or boobs or pussy. You have whatever, live with it.

For god's sake, man, set aside the goofy 'power exchange' nomenclature and look at this from a real world perspective. This abstract power obsession is making you spout nonsense.

Who decides what happens, where & when? That person is the D. Who defers? That person is the s.

A close friend of mine is a female D, smart, petite, and very lovely, with a tall, strong, affluent, professionally successful, male s partner. She values him as a sex object... and as someone who obeys her household chore instructions... and as a conversationalist... and as a source of comfort when she's sad... and as someone who makes her laugh... and as someone who can move heavy furniture. Etc. You know, he's a PERSON.

What JMoegan says, except replace the man with woman. Although we do have to move the heavy furniture together as a team.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Who decides what happens, where & when? That person is the D. Who defers? That person is the s.

i wish it were that clear - that abstract, ironically enough

 

[welkin]

i've often wondered what constitutes a 'nice' cock... i mean, clearly they're not all the same, but apart from size, are there any aesthetic factors or anything that y'all are into? Is it a matter of individual taste? Or is it like boobs (we have our preferences, but they're all still boobs)? Or is it that, as Xaviera Hollander said, "there are very few un-deserving cocks?"

That's exactly how I don't know how some vaginas are nicer than others...
If the cock is clean and hard when I want it to be hard, I'd say that's a good start for me.

(i've heard the 'human dildo' thing before, but it's still hot, every time.) Anyway, i don't pretend to understand switches, but, looking at it from the outside, doesn't that mean that the power-exchange is relatively short-term? So you have a more complex dynamic, and his role as Dom is in your mind even when you've switched? Or am i completely off base, there?

Yes we don't do complete power exchanges. Even when I sub I still hold a lot of power. You are right in that when I top, I don't necessarily view my bf as "useless thing with a cock", part of the excitement does come from getting to "overpower" someone who is normally my Dom. But then again, I don't think he treats me as objects of desire and nothing more. What I am trying to say is, men and women both want partners who are physically attractive, but at the same time they also both want partners who are strong enough to support them, little letter or big letter doesn't matter. No one would really be attracted to someone who's a dim witted doormat.

Well, YES. But, what makes a guy attractive tends to be things that translate to power - being strong or athletic, being wealthy or having status, being successful or accomplished - and power does not belong on the msub side of the relationship.

So as I said, sure, that could be *part of* how a man can be attractive, but I don't see why success, intelligence, confidence, etc can't also be part of a woman's charm.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As examples of men who are admired first and foremost for their looks and their sexual promise-- At least by women-- I present to you almost every youthful rock god ever. From young Frank Sinatra to young Justin Beiber.

"What gooood are they!" say so very many men. "They can't doooo anything!" Meanwhile the women are lining up in the halls of the hotel to get a shot at the dude's dick. They don't want anything more than that, actually.

Also every male actor where the husbands said "I don't know what she sees in him." Rudolf Valentino. Carey Grant, and also Cary Elwes. Johnny motherfucking Depp. Ben Wishaw, the current obsession of half the horny dames I run into on the Internet.

Hell, there are women currently obsessing over the boy who blew up the Boston Marathon. He's really pretty. They would so tap that. You think that's disgusting, so do I-- but there it is.

Don't make the mistake of believing that your experiences are absolute and universal.

 

[KoPilot]

I'm sorry, I just can't take a man seriously when he openly pines about men not being considered sexy by society at large, and in the same breath holds that women are The Sexy Ones.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm sorry, I just can't take a man seriously when he openly pines about men not being considered sexy by society at large, and in the same breath holds that women are The Sexy Ones.

Yep

 

[BrightlyGo]

So as I said, sure, that could be *part of* how a man can be attractive, but I don't see why success, intelligence, confidence, etc can't also be part of a woman's charm.

They absolutely can be. Even vanilla men purportedly find confidence attractive, for instance. Success is trickier: some successful women do complain that success 'intimidates' men who aren't as successful.

As examples of men who are admired first and foremost for their looks and their sexual promise--

Celebrities, by definition, have some fame and success...

I'm sorry, I just can't take a man seriously when he openly pines about men not being considered sexy by society at large...

i was kinda getting that impression. Thanks for your honesty.

 

[KoPilot]

BrightlyGo, if you're having such a hard time understanding... why don't you just ask your domme what her opinion is? Hers is really the only one that matters anyways.

 

[KoPilot]

PS- be the change you want to see in the world. Start finding men hot

 

[BrightlyGo]

BrightlyGo, if you're having such a hard time understanding... why don't you just ask your domme what her opinion is? Hers is really the only one that matters anyways.

As She was holding me while i sobbed my eyes out, she said: "of course you have value, you have value because I love you."

i decided against sharing that when it happened ('TMI' i figured), but, you asked directly, and i am here to express myself, so there it is...

She also advised me to "get out of my own head" and stop getting so wrapped up in over-analyzing abstractions like this. But She didn't /tell/ me to get off Lit or stop participating.

That was last week.

And, i'm still at it. It really is kinda a compulsion of mine. It's fascinating to dig into difficult questions with no clear answers, even when i do find an answer that that i really (really!) don't like.


Plus, this environment - where i (and even just using 'i' instead of 'I' and having people get what that means is amazing) can express myself in ways that i can't afford to in more mainstream venues - is just seductive.

PS- be the change you want to see in the world. Start finding men hot

Like i said, i'm not exactly a 0 on the Kinsey scale. ;P But, it's not like there aren't plenty of men who already find other men hot. And the change i want to see isn't in anyone's orientation - i'd just like to see society maybe not have such stringent gender roles, or maybe even just use a smaller hammer when forcing us odd-shaped pegs into acceptably round or square holes...

And, really, just understanding bits of the world here or there...

 

[welkin]

Like i said, i'm not exactly a 0 on the Kinsey scale. ;P But, it's not like there aren't plenty of men who already find other men hot. And the change i want to see isn't in anyone's orientation - i'd just like to see society maybe not have such stringent gender roles, or maybe even just use a smaller hammer when forcing us odd-shaped pegs into acceptably round or square holes...

Lit board may not be your target audience then, because as I see it, people are telling you exactly what you ask for, the blurring of gender roles ie "no men can be sexy too" and "women don't have to resign to being objects of desire", and you are only arguing against it...

Do you really believe in what you ask for? Do you think when you surrender to your domme that you cease to be attractive and sexy? You might need to work this out within yourself first before convincing others...

 

[Netzach]

The whole "women only graft themselves onto men because power" is kind of a harsh helping of binary gendered crap. Like we're not "really" sexual enough to just want to bone?

Patriarchy or no, straight and straight enough women are plenty capable of deciding they want to fuck a guy's brains out because of pure raw visual and visceral appeal, and making this decision quickly, without a lot of deliberation.

I'm sorry that not every self proclaimed dominant woman is secure enough, PIV sex oriented enough, or sexually libidinous enough to know how to use a necktie to steer a man while he's balls deep in her, but that's not going to make me re-evaluate my interest in men as just some knee jerk reaction that has nothing to do with who I am and what I want. I know what I want and when I want to fuck, really, it's just that.

Plenty of second wave feminists have worried about whether my pussy is simply conditioned by The Man, and I have little patience for that from any corner. Listen and believe: some men are sexy and women aren't lying when they express it. Some of us aren't anyway. Submissive can be hot, and not. Just like gay men can be hot and not. Just like women can be hot and not.

The bonus is that not everyone believes in the same thing as hot. There is a fan base for ginormous women over 45, men with bald spots in the back, men with uncut cock or pendulous nuts that MUST hang slightly to the right to be "hot" - the diversity of what we like is a saving grace for those who aren't a CK ad.

You asked what's "good cock" for example. 20 different people, at least 10 different answers if not 20 if you get specific.

 

[Dyslexicea]

The whole "women only graft themselves onto men because power" is kind of a harsh helping of binary gendered crap. Like we're not "really" sexual enough to just want to bone?

BrightlyGo, Netzach has hit the nail on the head. If I as a lesbian can see men as sexy, sensual and even at times as sex objects. Why would you ever think women who do desire men sexually wouldn't more so.

Ya want to know something dear, I desire women, I at time lust after women, I see women as objects of desire but I do not only see other women in that light. We contrary to what you seem to think want to be desired sexually and sometimes that's all we really want from another person. At times we can be just as fuck them and leave them as any man can be.

We are many, many things and one of those things is sexual.