I hate men!

[catalina_francisco]

I think it is trolling, frankly.

Or attention, which I must say has worked.

 

[niteshade]

I try really hard not to hate anyone or anything... it is very bad for you to expend so much negative energy on something that is not going to be changed by your hate. Besides... hating them just gives them that much more importance. I try to reserve that for specific people who have earned it.

 

[Lust Engine]

Haven't I seen this post somewhere before?

You have. It's evolved from a rant to a tantrum.

 

[JupitersGirl]

It's raining men....





oops! sorry.....wrong thread...

 

[fallon2]

Jupiter's Girl . . .

Well, maybe not "raining Men" but I have come in out of the rain to say that I think something has happened to Sweet and that is why she has written her post. I think we need to wish her a really, really, "have a better day tomorrow" and pm me if you ever want to talk.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Yes, I did post this on *a few* different boards. Different people in different places. I think that it was over-emotional, and not really well thought out. I think I could have made a better argument with more effort, but instead chose to rant and generalize. I apologize, it wasnt' very constructive.

Still, it's interesting to see how people choose to respond to such a bold statement. I don't claim to speak for all women, I use 'we' to make some points, becuause I do *belong* to the group of people known as women- so when refering to women as a group, I did at times use the pronoun 'we.' I appreciate the thoughtful responses from both men and women to what was a very unpopular stance.

When I posted this on the GB, a certain male member posted and "I hate women" thread, which went widely ignored. I think there is a certain stigma -beyond sexism- that goes with 'man-hating' By that I mean, women who are feminists and/or lesbians are often labled as 'man-haters' as if this is the worst thing in the world. It's obvioulsy not good to hate half of the worlds population (or slightly less), but I think its something more than that. ONe woman posted that she much prefered the company of men and listed some of the negative stereotypes of women's friendships- and no one seemed to feel that that was sexist at all. It seems that it is acceptable for women to distain female friendships, but not acceptable to have that distain for men. I felt at the time that I just needed to fly in the face of that stigma, and declare that I hate men, something that women the world over seem to fear being accused of. I guess in a similer way that women have tried to reclaim words like 'bitch' 'slut' and even 'cunt.'

I did not mean to imply that I spoke for anyone other than myself, or to say much of what is being assumed that I meant by my admittedly over emotional rant. I don't hate *all* men, I have a problem with them as a group. I didn't say that they where assholes (although I did point out some bad behavior) or that one was an asshole, therefor they all are. It seems to me, that by pointing out bad behavior which in my oppinion is not mearly one isolated incident after another, I am interpreted as saying "men are assholes."

I am accused of generalizing- yes, I did that. My statements were general, my feelings are toward men *in general* not toward any specific male. I do realize that we are all individuals, however group dynamics do exist. Men *in general* do not like their wives to refuse to take their last name. Of course there are some who don't mind. But *in general* it is still truth. Generalizations are not neccessarily false, they mearly don't apply to every single member of a group. YOuu can't really talk about life without makeing some generalizations, IMO. Generallly, men are taller than women. Generally bridesmaids wear ugly dresses. Generally teenagers prefer rockandroll over Chopin. Generally men don't drink Cosmopolotins.

And generally, i like every body on lit, male or female. I can even put up with a little Hans now and then. I appolgize for having offended so many of you, and for not thinking through what I posted. I try not to hate anybody but sometimes things seem overwealming, and you just need to vent. Although my orriginal post does seem trollish, and was not in the least bit diplomatic, I feel that in someways, it has started some interesting and important conversations.

_____________
Sweet-- trying not to be so bitter.

I'd like to know why this thread is on every board on Lit. It makes it hard to take as anything more than an emotional overreaction.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Welcome to the Feminist cause Sweet...if you are ever interested in some good literature, don't hesitate to PM and I can give you some titles to read. They not only inform, but light a good fire in the belly, empowering those who wish to to have some effect in bringing about change.

Catalina

 

[Squeezenplease]

Isn’t it cute how the Little Rascals form a club called, “The He-Man Woman Hater’s Club” and exclude all girls and ‘girl sympathizers?’ And isn’t it something that men grow up and form their ‘good ‘ol boys’ networks and act pretty much the same? And what do we call men when they behave in a sexist and inappropriate way? Sometimes we say that they are chauvinistic pigs- comparing them to cute harmless farm animals. Sometimes we call them dogs- man’s best friend! If we want to be really nasty, we call them misogynists, but they usually don’t know what that means anyway.

But when women dare to notice and name sexism, we are usually accused of being sexist ourselves. As if by recognizing hundreds (maybe millions) of years of oppression, by calling men on it- by demanding equal treatment, equal rights- we are now oppressing them. And what do we call a woman who hates men? Do we call her a harmless barnyard animal? She gets labeled a “femi-nazi.” Yes, hating women is wrong but hating men is simply unacceptable. Ever notice how people who say, ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’ don’t throw up half as much fuss over the first wrong as they do the second? It may be wrong, after all, but it’s just the way it is. Let’s not go messing with the status quo.

When men show up, they always try to take over. They think that just because they are men, they should be in charge. The women may have been doing all the work all along, but the men will step in and take charge and then take the credit. Ask a man to do anything, and he will ask- ‘why?’ no matter how simple the request. Point out there bad behavior and they tell you that you are generalizing, that they are not like ‘other men.’ Funny, by separating themselves from ‘most men’ they acknowlege the truth in your ‘generality.’ Men just hate being lumped together, even if they know you are right. It offends their sense of individuality.

Women who don’t let the men take over are usually seen as ball busters. They’re bitches, or nags or otherwise marginalized, shushed, or dismissed. Sometimes it’s very effective, because women don’t like being called names. We want people to like us. It’s a no-win situation and most of us know it. But we are afraid to say so.

Speaking about the oppression in our society that is very real, women are told, It’s all in your head, you’re over reacting, that’s just the way it is. In other words, sit down and shut up. More often than not, women are then accused of playing a ’victim’ card and trying to oppress or victimize men. Yes, naming oppression has made up the oppressor! What an odd twist.

Men do have a knack for turning everything around on us. Even what they do wrong is always our fault. We are too sexy, we were in the wrong place, we wouldn’t shut up, we nag too much. (God, if men would only *listen* us women wouldn’t have to nag.)

Someone will no doubted say that I’m just ‘bitching and whining’ and not doing anything about it. But naming the problem is doing something, as obviously nothing *can* be done until the problem is identified. And besides, I *am* bitching. That’s because I have something to bitch about. So don’t try to marginalize me or shut me up or accuse me of being sexist. Because I don’t care. I see injustice and it pisses me off. Yeah, I know that the worlds not fair- but that doesn’t mean that women should just lie back and take it. It doesn’t mean we don’t do anything about it. It means that when we see something we don’t like, we raise our voices and say so. There are some men that I like as individuals, but overall, *I hate men.* And you know what- they deserve it.

I have to tell you I love women and men, but that load of crap you wrote is more than anyone could swallow...get real bitch

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bitch = Babe In Total Control of Herself.......I'm sure Sweet will be pleased you hold her in such high esteem!!! Bored are we?

Catalina

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: I hate men!

I have to tell you I love women and men, but that load of crap you wrote is more than anyone could swallow...get real bitch

Well that was pointlessly crude - don't you think???

 

[catalina_francisco]

some tips for women that hate men

I just could not resist.

First you start by seducing them to come to you .

And then once you have them in your power.

Francisco.

PS I promise no more smilies and animations for a while.

 

[niteshade]

Re: some tips for women that hate men

I just could not resist.

First you start by seducing them to come to you .

And then once you have them in your power.

Francisco.

PS I promise no more smilies and animations for a while.

oh don't promise that... you have been doing so well. And they are nearly as entertaining as our little troll.

 

[BrightFlower]

Re: some tips for women that hate men

PS I promise no more smilies and animations for a while. [/B]

Hey! Those smilies and animations are priceless!

 

[Netzach]

But that's what I do to the ones I love!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Psst keep that a secret, you would not want to frighten the subs away.

Francisco

 

[sweetnpetite]

sexism in advertising

"The exploitation of women in the media has become so commonplace, particularly in advertising, that most people fail to get outraged or even notice it anymore. But many women do care about these images and understand their true power. "

"More viewers watch the Super Bowl each year than any other television event, and the shocker is that nearly half of that audience is female! Companies like Pepsi and Anheuser-Bush were willing to pay $2.2 million for 30 seconds of airtime during this year's game because they believe that advertising has the power to influence people. If commercials are so effective at selling products, they also must be capable of selling stereotypes."

"In January, the NOW Foundation released its first-ever Feminist Super Bowl AdWatch. Our Watch Out, Listen Up! campaign, which has issued reports on the TV networks' primetime shows over the last three years, recruited volunteers to grade the ads and choose the best and worst based on their portrayal of women, people of color and other groups that are often used as easy punchlines."

"The report generated mail both pro and con, with the strongest comments coming from men determined to discourage the NOW Foundation from any further criticism of the advertising industry. They employed two simple methods that have been used against feminists for decades:

1.Name-calling. Foes of feminism labeled NOW women as "a bunch of humorless, shrieking harpies," "fat, ugly lesbian types," and "bitter old women who couldn't find a husband," in an attempt to humiliate and intimidate us.

2.Accusations of overreacting. Some writers—attempting to belittle and discredit NOW's concerns—provided this advice: "Maybe you should stop fighting everything and go along with the flow, ride it out, life is too short," and "Try directing your energy to more worthwhile causes like third-world hunger, or your city's homeless population."

Feminists often face insults and patronizing comments when we question the status quo. By analyzing the Super Bowl commercials, however, the NOW Foundation remained true to perhaps the most important principle of feminism—that many, many factors work together to limit women's status in society."

"But feminists also know that she/he who controls the media controls the flow of information and the power of perception."

"On Super Bowl day, and pretty much every day of the year, the mainstream media promote women as eye candy, valued for little more than their desirability and eagerness to please. Until the media and the advertising industry develop a newfound respect for women, the struggle to be taken seriously and viewed as equals will continue. Feminists can lead them toward that respect."

to view the entire article:
http://www.now.org/nnt/spring-2003/superbowl.html

In short, sexism does still exist, and it is pretty mainstream- not the exception. If this were not true, adversisers would not spend big bucks promoting and trading off these attitudes. In general, they like to spend advertising dollars in ways that are effective-- and belittleing and exploiting women has proven to be so. Unfortunatly, it creates a cycle, by encouraging and enforcing these attituede media strenthens and contributes to sexism, yet as long as those attitudes are seen as funny, ok, or in some way desirable, they will continue to be used.

If sex sells, sexism apparently does too.

 

[sweetnpetite]

. Interesting how the loud mouthed, swaggering, macho image males fall so much more quickly than the rest when challenged.

Catalina

The harder they are on the outside, the softer they are on the inside.

 

[sweetnpetite]

You have. It's evolved from a rant to a tantrum.

I prefer to call it, "standing my ground."

but infantalizing women when they assert themselves isn't an uncommon way to dismiss what we have to say.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I guess it depends how you look at it. I wrote a paper for a diehard Feminist lecturer while at University who warned me I was going to risk my top of the class mark and my hard earned credibility in the feminist community if I wrote on the topic I submitted I would. Wel I took on the challenge and managed to get her to look at the issue of exploitation of women from a different perspective than NOW is famous for.

I based the paper on the premise that feminism is about freedom of choice for women, and that the areas many contended were exploiting women, were the only areas on the planet where a women could earn more than any man any day, and the men had to pay. I questioned if the argument against the exploitation was really doing women who chose of their own free will to work in the modelling, porn, and sex worker industry a favour, or if it was actually playing into the hands of the male population who have objected since time began to paying for a woman's services.

If women are comfortable with their choice of career, what right do other women have to put them down and call them exploited? That to me is coming from the patriarchal society views based on the beliefs of religion, once again ruled by men, and at this point costing them financially to enjoy. Why should a woman deny herself using her body for income anymore than her mind or her hands?.....they are all parts of the whole person. Why should women feel guilty for being attractive, and if she so chooses, wearing makeup and sexy clothes to feel better, or attract partners? And has there been an absence of male figures scantily clad or otherwise in the media advertising, or the sex industry? Don't knock women just because men are more willing to pay then are most women.

To me, it is honest for those who chose to live it, and much better than inviting men to go back to using women and expecting to give nothing in return. I think perhaps women have once again alowed men to dictate what they should do and think and not even realised it. The problem is not that women are being exploited (because according to the dictionary exploiting means: to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage ), which I don't see when they are paid and usually well, but that some women adopt the tactic's men use to denigrate women in the hope of shaming them into submission to men's desires alone.

It all comes down to thinking about the issue for yourself and not buying the first theory you read, questioning the truth and evidence, then dciding if what you have heard or read is true and serves women or harms them. And guess what, my paper topped the class for that year, was stolen, was used also in a University publication for innovative thought (lucky I kept a copy!!), and won the admiration of the lecturer who admitted it had given her food for thought where she thought it had all been figured out.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Has anyone ever heard of demographics?

Companies do study the market they are trying to target and then create an advertising line accordingly.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I agree with what you have said here, but I don't think that it excludes what was said in the article. Actors in those comercials are certainly not the ones getting the big payoff or profeting hugely from them.

I think that a woman's body is her own, and she should be able to profit from her as she pleases. Its funny in this day and age that the only one who is frounded on for marketing or profeting from a women's body is the woman herself- it's fine for others to make their buck off her.

Case in point- why do we view stippers as lower than the men who go to see them? There is a song called, "what would you do?" where a guy is at a party and he sees this girl there he knows from school and he takes her outside and says to her, "what are you doing here dancing for cash, I guess a whole lots changed since I've seen you last." She then goes on to tell him her reasons and asks, "What would you do?" and his reply is "Get up on my feet and stop making tired excuses, girl I know if my mother can do it you can."

I would have been like, "excuse me? how the fuck do you think that you are any better than me. Get you sorry self away from me."

A lot of people probably don't think that they view stippers as lower, but trust me, even for a woman, it is more acceptable to admit to being a patron at a strip club than a dancer.

I thnk prostitution should be legal, but pimping (which ironically is coming into the mainstream as a word to mean someone quite cool- he has all the girls and all the money, he's the master of 'handlin his business' he is 'the man') and exploitation (such as sweatshop labor or any other type of human abuse) should be illegal. Managers and agents should have strict qualifications that distinguish them from pimps. (ie- non-abusive, fair percentage as payment, ect) so that pimps coudn't simply renaime themselves and claim rights as 'business men" and also so thst women could benefit from a fair and protective relationship such as she might find in a well run brothel or "escort service" In all cases the rights of the women are ptotected, and her body belongs to herself, to do withas she pleases.


I would love to read your paper, please pm me to discuss. Thanks.

I guess it depends how you look at it. I wrote a paper for a diehard Feminist lecturer while at University who warned me I was going to risk my top of the class mark and my hard earned credibility in the feminist community if I wrote on the topic I submitted I would. Wel I took on the challenge and managed to get her to look at the issue of exploitation of women from a different perspective than NOW is famous for.

I based the paper on the premise that feminism is about freedom of choice for women, and that the areas many contended were exploiting women, were the only areas on the planet where a women could earn more than any man any day, and the men had to pay. I questioned if the argument against the exploitation was really doing women who chose of their own free will to work in the modelling, porn, and sex worker industry a favour, or if it was actually playing into the hands of the male population who have objected since time began to paying for a woman's services.

If women are comfortable with their choice of career, what right do other women have to put them down and call them exploited? That to me is coming from the patriarchal society views based on the beliefs of religion, once again ruled by men, and at this point costing them financially to enjoy. Why should a woman deny herself using her body for income anymore than her mind or her hands?.....they are all parts of the whole person. Why should women feel guilty for being attractive, and if she so chooses, wearing makeup and sexy clothes to feel better, or attract partners? And has there been an absence of male figures scantily clad or otherwise in the media advertising, or the sex industry? Don't knock women just because men are more willing to pay then are most women.

To me, it is honest for those who chose to live it, and much better than inviting men to go back to using women and expecting to give nothing in return. I think perhaps women have once again alowed men to dictate what they should do and think and not even realised it. The problem is not that women are being exploited (because according to the dictionary exploiting means: to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage ), which I don't see when they are paid and usually well, but that some women adopt the tactic's men use to denigrate women in the hope of shaming them into submission to men's desires alone.

It all comes down to thinking about the issue for yourself and not buying the first theory you read, questioning the truth and evidence, then dciding if what you have heard or read is true and serves women or harms them. And guess what, my paper topped the class for that year, was stolen, was used also in a University publication for innovative thought (lucky I kept a copy!!), and won the admiration of the lecturer who admitted it had given her food for thought where she thought it had all been figured out.

Catalina

 

[sweetnpetite]

Has anyone ever heard of demographics?

Companies do study the market they are trying to target and then create an advertising line accordingly.

Of course I have heard of demographics. Is football the sexist pig demographic? Does that make it ok? To promote that that is what it means to be a man? Demographics does not refute my point, it strengthens it.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I prefer to call it, "standing my ground."

but infantalizing women when they assert themselves isn't an uncommon way to dismiss what we have to say.

On the other hand, claining victimization is an easy way for someone to avoid legitimate criticism.

 

[A Desert Rose]

On the other hand, claining victimization is an easy way for someone to avoid legitimate criticism.

This thread has gone from a bitch about what pigs men are to what a piggish bunch the media and society at large is.


~~~~~~~~~~~~

Companies study their target audience.... that is a fact and if anyone thinks that showing "eye candy" is some kind of offense to women at large, that is a mistake. We have had this conversation before on this board regarding exploitation of women in media, advertising etc.

There is a lot of "eye candy" at porn boards.... just look at a few AV's and picture threads. Are these women exploiting themselves for some piggish males? Do you think they think they are? I think they are doing what they want to do and presenting themselves as they want to.

More power to them. And more power to those of us who enjoy seeing it.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I think there are probably legitimate complaints that can be made, but childish ranting makes it difficult to focus on those complaints.