Individual Style VS Perfect Edits & the problem of AI.

[lil_jenni]

Don't confuse the mechanics of writing with style. One can craft a mechanically sound sentence yet affect a style antithetical to effective communication with a given audience.

 

[SimonDoom]

Why do proofreading tools flag passive constructions? I get that active voice is preferred in journalism, business, and academic writing for clarity and directness, but does it matter in fiction?

Definitely. There's no absolute rule against passive voice, but prose usually is livelier and more fun when active voice is emphasized.

 

[SimonDoom]

What the fuck is SPAG?

It's code we use so we can talk about you without you realizing it.

 

[XerXesXu]

SPaG. Most style guides recommend not capitalizing short prepositions unless they are the first or last words in the title.

What about conjunctions?

 

[Bramblethorn]

SPaG. Most style guides recommend not capitalizing short prepositions unless they are the first or last words in the title.

That's correct for title case, but AMD's use isn't title case. It's an acronym, and for acronyms usual style is to capitalise all letters.

 

[Bramblethorn]

(Given the recent fracas, I'd like to note that I am discussing general principles here and not commenting on any specific story or author. I would suggest that if somebody has indicated a preference to let a particular matter rest, it's probably better not to tag that person into discussion about that matter.)

God forbid we use a comma instead of a semicolon or vice versa, right?

Me? I'd rather read an amateur author with a unique voice and style who may botch some technical stuff but still manage to tell an entertaining tale then some perfectly polished thing with all the heart, soul and individuality of it drained away by “PERFECT” editing.

And better than either of those is the amateur author with a unique voice and style who doesn't botch the technical stuff. We don't have to choose between getting the technicals right and telling a story with heart, because the heart of a story is unlikely to depend on, e.g., its use of semicolons vs. commas.

There are times when it's appropriate to break the conventions. If the style manual gets in the way of a specific effect I'm trying to achieve, and if I consider that effect important enough to justify any negatives that come from breaking with standards, then bye-bye style manual. And of course dialogue should be informed by how the character would speak.

But most of the time when reviews/comments criticise non-standard SPAG, that non-standard use is not an artistic choice, it's just an oversight and fixing that oversight wouldn't have harmed the story in any way.

 

[KeithD]

Why do proofreading tools flag passive constructions? I get that active voice is preferred in journalism, business, and academic writing for clarity and directness, but does it matter in fiction?

It's considered unnecessarily weaker prose in most cases, yes, but there would be more reason to use it in fiction than in nonfiction.

 

[lil_jenni]

If the style manual gets in the way

It's really more of a guide.

 

[Djmac1031]

(Given the recent fracas, I'd like to note that I am discussing general principles here and not commenting on any specific story or author. I would suggest that if somebody has indicated a preference to let a particular matter rest, it's probably better not to tag that person into discussion about that matter.)

Your probably right. But I felt it was better to simply be up front about what sparked my thoughts rather than beat around the bush with it.

I'll take the heat on it if that upsets anyone.

 

[KeithD]

It's really more of a guide.

There actually are very few instances in which you couldn't stay in bounds of the style guide. The issue here largely seems to be that there are different style guides for fiction (what we write here) and nonfiction or business English (which most of the grammar programs are supporting) or high school essays (e.g. Strunk and White).

 

[Bramblethorn]

Your probably right. But I felt it was better to simply be up front about what sparked my thoughts rather than beat around the bush with it.

Agreed that it was probably better to be up-front about the impetus for the post. I was commenting specifically about the tagging - if I use @Djmac1031 you will get a notification of the post, if I write just Djmac1031 you won't, and if I think this is a discussion you don't want to see I'll take the latter option.

 

[lil_jenni]

There actually are very few instances in which you couldn't stay in bounds of the style guide. The issue here largely seems to be that there are different style guides for fiction (what we write here) and nonfiction or business English (which most of the grammar programs are supporting) or high school essays (e.g. Strunk and White).

I see you don't get the reference.

But to be serious, you do know there is not one official, authoritative style guide, right? And you do know that different style guides may differ, right?

Also, you do know that style guides are for style, right? For example, starting a sentence with 'and' (see above) may be poor form for a certain audience but not ungrammatical on its face.

 

[KeithD]

I see you don't get the reference.

But to be serious, you do know there is not one official, authoritative style guide, right? And you do know that different style guides may differ, right?

Also, you do know that style guides are for style, right? For example, starting a sentence with 'and' (see above) may be poor form for a certain audience but not ungrammatical on its face.

I write for marketplace publication. Even what I've posted to Literotica is written for marketplace publication. Every publisher I've ever been connected with (and I am a professional, credentialed book editor) uses the Chicago Manual of Style as the highest authority for fiction writing (some other style guides offer help on a few issues Chicago doesn't). So, for me there's only one official, authoritative style guide, yes. Which makes editing life pretty simple for me.

If you aren't in the business and are only writing for Literotica, I suppose you can use any style guide you want that gets you published here. Everything I submit gets published here the way I've submitted it.

Not following a uniform style to keep readers comfortable isn't an ego challenge for me. It isn't all about me and limited knowledge of the disciple.

 

[XerXesXu]

Also, you do know that style guides are for style, right? For example, starting a sentence with 'and' (see above) may be poor form for a certain audience but not ungrammatical on its face.

The confusion of style and grammar is a common theme on AH. Grammar is what you learn before you go to school, it makes spoken language a means of communication, style is what you learn after you go to school, it makes written language conform to Miss's expectations.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I honestly don't really HAVE a true point other than to openly discuss the topic of technical VS style when it comes to amateur writers.

Two different things, in my mind.

You can have a piece of text with perfectly grammatical, properly punctuated and correctly constructed sentences, and it can be as exciting as a contract to read, dull as dishwater. Style is far more than mechanics, but I think too many people conflate the two, rather than correlate the two.

 

[lil_jenni]

I write for marketplace publication. Even what I've posted to Literotica is written for marketplace publication. Every publisher I've ever been connected with (and I am a professional, credentialed book editor) uses the Chicago Manual of Style as the highest authority for fiction writing (some other style guides offer help on a few issues Chicago doesn't). So, for me there's only one official, authoritative style guide, yes. Which makes editing life pretty simple for me.

If you aren't in the business and are only writing for Literotica, I suppose you can use any style guide you want that gets you published here. Everything I submit gets published here the way I've submitted it.

Not following a uniform style to keep readers comfortable isn't an ego challenge for me. It isn't all about me and limited knowledge of the disciple.

Style guide? I don't need no stinking style guide! I'm a pirate of the SPAG, living free on the high seas of creative expression.

Oh, and the Chicago Manual of Style is preferred in publishing and highly influential, but it is neither official nor authoritative.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The bull is fucking dead. No more need for daggers. The entertainment is over. Go the fuck home.

 

[Stimtheone]

This was a thought I have when dismissing like two thirds of Grammarly's suggestions. There is a limit to how "correct" you can be and still be bloody human. Humans make mistakes. Hell, I read my first work and cringe at the many mistakes I made.

 

[KeithD]

Style guide? I don't need no stinking style guide! I'm a pirate of the SPAG, living free on the high seas of creative expression.

Oh, and the Chicago Manual of Style is preferred in publishing and highly influential, but it is neither official nor authoritative.

You do you. It needn't impinge on my life.

 

[SimonDoom]

These threads have a way of evolving to the point that it seems you have to make a choice between the grammar Nazi "you must step in line" point of view and the free-wheeling "don't tell me what to do" point of view. I think it's a false choice.

As others like Keith or EB have pointed out, there are relatively few instances where knowing, and usually following, the conventions of a guide like the Chicago Manual of Style will in any way inhibit your creativity. It's a red herring. Using normal grammar and style conventions usually will improve your ability to get your point across and communicate with your reader. It enhances creativity rather than inhibiting it. Clinging to the false "inhibition" school is like believing that knowing the proper use of tools will inhibit your creativity as a carpenter. We intuitively understand this is false about carpentry, or almost any human endeavor. But for some reason some of us hew to these ideas when it comes to art and writing.

I've been mulling over AwkwardMD's pizza delivery analogy, and I can't quite agree to that. I think of the delivery car as more like the device I'm viewing the story on, or perhaps the Site's user interface. The SPAG is, for me anyway, part of the artfulness of the communication. It's directly related to the pleasure I get from the story. I truly wince when I read badly punctuated dialogue, because it's such an easy thing to correct. All you have to know is about 7 basic rules, and they're easy to find and easy to learn. Nothing whatsoever is gained by being sloppy and unconscious about punctuating dialogue. Or unconscious tense shifting. Or shifting points of view without a reason to. Or having no clue when to use commas, semicolons, and periods. These things are, for me, an essential part of the pizza. They may not be for everyone. But here's the thing. You will lose some readers with bad SPAG. You will not lose anyone with good SPAG. There's no downside, just upside.

 

[XerXesXu]

The SPAG is, for me anyway, part of the artfulness of the communication. It's directly related to the pleasure I get from the story. I truly wince when I read badly punctuated dialogue, because it's such an easy thing to correct. All you have to know is about 7 basic rules, and they're easy to find and easy to learn. Nothing whatsoever is gained by being sloppy and unconscious about punctuating dialogue. Or unconscious tense shifting. Or shifting points of view without a reason to. Or having no clue when to use commas, semicolons, and periods. These things are, for me, an essential part of the pizza. They may not be for everyone. But here's the thing. You will lose some readers with bad SPAG. You will not lose anyone with good SPAG. There's no downside, just upside.

That's you and your emotional response to style, many people may share your emotions, I don't. That's possibly a cultural response. I'm from a different culture and read through deviations from spelling or style or homonyms (commas are your strength, but notably weak on homonyms) completely untroubled if the words buzz and flow and the story is well-paced. Also, I believe style and punctuation are also included in the creative process. Were you genuinely upset by James Joyce and Cormac McCarthy?

I like to experiment with deviating from stylistic norms because it's creative, it's fun to do. Others may too. Think of the upside.

 

[SimonDoom]

Also, I believe style and punctuation are also included in the creative process. Were you genuinely upset by James Joyce and Cormac McCarthy?

I like to experiment with deviating from stylistic norms because it's creative, it's fun to do. Others may too. Think of the upside.

We're talking about two different things. You know what the conventions are, but you choose to deviate from them. James Joyce and Cormac McCarthy obviously wrote with an intense level of consciousness over every word choice. They knew the rules cold, but they knowingly chose to deviate from them. I see nothing wrong with that and I think it can work brilliantly. Picasso knew how to draw a lifelike portrait, but his art evolved beyond that. Would he have been as good an artist if he had not spent his early years learning how to draw lifelike portraits? Not a chance.

The deviations one sees here at Literotica are, far more often than not, unconscious, because the author simply doesn't know what the rules are, or doesn't pay attention while writing. I don't see James Joyces and Cormac McCarthys. The deviations one sees here are mostly NOT conscious creative choices.

 

[Priscilla_June]

I see nothing wrong with starting a sentence with "And" or "But" in fiction. It's conversational style. (https://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/starting_a_sentence_with_and_or_but.htm)

I cringe when I bring myself to the point I need to use and or but to start a sentence, but it happens.

 

[XerXesXu]

We're talking about two different things. You know what the conventions are,

Really! What are they?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've been mulling over AwkwardMD's pizza delivery analogy, and I can't quite agree to that. I think of the delivery car as more like the device I'm viewing the story on, or perhaps the Site's user interface. The SPAG is, for me anyway, part of the artfulness of the communication. It's directly related to the pleasure I get from the story. I truly wince when I read badly punctuated dialogue, because it's such an easy thing to correct. All you have to know is about 7 basic rules, and they're easy to find and easy to learn. Nothing whatsoever is gained by being sloppy and unconscious about punctuating dialogue. Or unconscious tense shifting. Or shifting points of view without a reason to. Or having no clue when to use commas, semicolons, and periods. These things are, for me, an essential part of the pizza. They may not be for everyone. But here's the thing. You will lose some readers with bad SPAG. You will not lose anyone with good SPAG. There's no downside, just upside.

My pet analogy for this one is road signs.

Driving is cognitively demanding. I need to think about the big picture - where am I going, what time will I get there, what's the weather doing and do I need to change my plans? At the same time, I need to be on top of micro details - what's the speed limit right now? Is that guy up ahead about to cross in front of me? Is there a motorbike in my blind spot? There's so much to take in; so many accidents happen because of information overload.

Anything that can be done to make that smoother and simpler is important. A lot of thought goes into things like dashboard design precisely so that I don't have to consciously think about the design of my dash while I'm driving. And in particular, road signs are standardised, so that when I see a red octagon that means the same thing in just about any country in the world. I'm so used to it that I don't have to give it a moment's thought; my brain interprets that STOP sign pretty much on autopilot.



But imagine if every stop sign was created by an artist who wanted to impose their own unique vision on the design. Sometimes the sign for "stop" is a red octagon with STOP written in it. Sometimes it's a green circle with a picture of a guy sitting down. Sometimes it's a little figurine of Gandalf doing his YOU SHALL NOT PASS scene. Sometimes instead of a physical sign, it's a sample of the Supremes singing "Stop! In the Name of Love!" and sometimes it's a hologram of a group of nuns walking across the road.

Maybe every single artist is a creative genius who's come up with their own way to symbolise "stop", far better than the red octagon could ever be.

It would still be awful, because every time I saw a stop sign I'd have to process it and figure out what it meant. No matter how good the design is, I can't just handle it on autopilot. It chews up processing power that I might need for something else like remembering my turnoff or spotting a pothole in the road.

That's how non-standard SPAG affects me as a reader. It's distracting, I have to think about what it's supposed to mean, and that takes my attention away from the actual story I'm trying to read.

In some modes of communication, it's not a big deal. If I'm texting with a friend to make plans to meet up for dinner, there are only a small number of things to be considered - time, your place of mine, anything I should bring. If they just write "7 urs <wine bottle emoji>" that's not hard to interpret, and the more often I talk to that friend the more chance I have to get familiar with their writing quirks.

But fiction on a site like this is cognitively demanding. You're writing for people who don't know you, who probably aren't familiar with your style, and you're often trying to establish an entire fictional world and important stuff about characters they've never met, all in a few thousand words, while leaving room for an actual story. That's a lot to take in. If you're able to follow standards on the little things, that makes it easier for them to appreciate the big things, and maybe a bit more leeway to break with conventions when that's actually important to the story.

"What's up?"

"I'm sorry, it's stupid. I got a cold and I was trying to prepare for a review but Professor Cheng's away at a conference and he's not answering his emails and I found a nice flat but I didn't have my ID with me and by the time I got it somebody else had already -"

Here, I deliberately wrote a long run-on sentence with no punctuation to convey that the speaker is agitated and overwhelmed, and to put them in the mind of the protagonist who's listening to her. Granted, dialogue isn't subject to the same rules as narration - we can write just about anything if it can be excused by "that's how the character talks" - but that doesn't make it easier for the reader. I don't want it to be easy, I have specific narrative reasons for wanting that sentence to feel like too much.

But in order to make that work, it has to stand out from the rest of the story. If I wrote every sentence like that, my readers would get exhausted very quickly, and if any of them made it to this sentence they wouldn't think "whoa, the speaker is really upset here!" because it'd just be yet another run-on sentence with no punctuation.