Is a song a poem?

[Liar]

Good point, so how do they?

Pretty darn well.



Now and then.

 

[Tzara]

Bogusbrig said it all for me- most lyrics are not complete as poetry. They are created with an additional element, and you just can't take that away- it's like printing a poem without any vowels. The music is integral to the form- most of the time.

I think I generally agree with this. Most popular music lyrics are not intended to stand on their own as poetry. The purpose is different. The same is true for, say, opera librettos. Even when written by established poets (W.H. Auden, John Hollander), they aren't intended to be standalone poems. (I did come across an interesting semi-counter example today. An opera libretto for the movie Nosferatu published by Graywolf Press, a noted poetry publisher. What makes it interesting is that the author did not compose it for a specific composer, but rather as a kind of poem.)

Another interesting consideration. Is Homeric verse poetry? As originally performed, it was "sung" to musical accompaniment (this site has some samples of what it might have sounded like).

 

[bogusbrig]

So, if a song is not poetry, what makes a poem? Does not a poem have rhythm, beat and cadence? Isn't that a song?

Not necessarily but that is another discussion. Song lyrics often don't have rhythm, beat and cadence, often these elements are provided by the music and it's the need for a musical element that makes words a lyric. One only has to look at the lyric thread to see most of the lyrics make for anemic poetry at best.

 

[sugarmountain]

The First Time Ever I saw Your Face

The first time ever I saw your face
I thought the sun rose in your eyes
And the moon and stars were the gifts you gave
To the dark and the empty skies, my love,
To the dark and the empty skies.

The first time ever I kissed your mouth
And felt your heart beat close to mine
Like the trembling heart of a captive bird
That was there at my command, my love
That was there at my command.

The first time ever I lay with you
I felt the earth move in my hand
I thought our joy would fill the earth
And last 'till the end of time, my love,
And last 'till the end of time.
____________________________

even without music....poetry

 

[Stella_Omega]

The first time ever I saw your face
I thought the sun rose in your eyes
And the moon and stars were the gifts you gave
To the dark and the empty skies, my love,
To the dark and the empty skies.

The first time ever I kissed your mouth
And felt your heart beat close to mine
Like the trembling heart of a captive bird
That was there at my command, my love
That was there at my command.

The first time ever I lay with you
I felt the earth move in my hand
I thought our joy would fill the earth
And last 'till the end of time, my love,
And last 'till the end of time.
____________________________

even without music....poetry

well... I can't read the words without hearing the music, can you?

As a matter of fact, I can't read them without hearing Roberta Flack's soaring voice!
And seeing, in my mind, the High School ceramics studio where I ditched all my classes. The truant officer would send someone up to get me, rather than go out looking on the streets. The sun poured into the south windows, and the instructor let me do pretty much anything I wanted, I mixed glazes for her, sculpted, threw porcelain on the wheel. She let us keep a little radio on. This is the song that would reduce the classroom to silence...

And so would this one;

Ground Control to Major Tom
Ground Control to Major Tom
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on...

But then- I can't see your handle, without hearing Neil Young!

 

[bogusbrig]

The first time ever I saw your face
I thought the sun rose in your eyes <- anyone who wrote this line in a poem would be slaughtered
And the moon and stars were the gifts you gave <-poetic? Do me a favour!
To the dark and the empty skies, my love,
To the dark and the empty skies.

The first time ever I kissed your mouth
And felt your heart beat close to mine <-Could you really put this in a poem and get away with it?
Like the trembling heart of a captive bird <-This too, it's so yuck as a poem
That was there at my command, my love
That was there at my command.

The first time ever I lay with you
I felt the earth move in my hand
I thought our joy would fill the earth
And last 'till the end of time, my love,
And last 'till the end of time. <- The whole last verse is cliche ridden!

even without music....poetry

Nope, it's not poetry or at the very best it's very anemic poetry on a life support system but it is a great song.

 

[sugarmountain]

The first time ever I saw your face
I thought the sun rose in your eyes <- anyone who wrote this line in a poem would be slaughtered
And the moon and stars were the gifts you gave <-poetic? Do me a favour!
To the dark and the empty skies, my love,
To the dark and the empty skies.

The first time ever I kissed your mouth
And felt your heart beat close to mine <-Could you really put this in a poem and get away with it?
Like the trembling heart of a captive bird <-This too, it's so yuck as a poem
That was there at my command, my love
That was there at my command.

The first time ever I lay with you
I felt the earth move in my hand
I thought our joy would fill the earth
And last 'till the end of time, my love,
And last 'till the end of time. <- The whole last verse is cliche ridden!




Nope, it's not poetry or at the very best it's very anemic poetry on a life support system but it is a great song.

So, you're saying the song is a poem in this case, but one you don't care for without the voice and music.
On my part, I like it as both., and although cliche', it does not make it's romantic message any less beautiful. Not all good poetry has to be clever and cloaked in hidden meanings and undecipherable metaphor.
Don't misunderstand me, I enjoy a well-worked image, just don't think all poetry needs to be so wrapped up in itself,imho.

 

[bogusbrig]

So, you're saying the song is a poem in this case, but one you don't care for without the voice and music.
On my part, I like it as both., and although cliche', it does not make it's romantic message any less beautiful. Not all good poetry has to be clever and cloaked in hidden meanings and undecipherable metaphor.
Don't misunderstand me, I enjoy a well-worked image, just don't think all poetry needs to be so wrapped up in itself,imho.

No, I'm saying to me it isn't poetry but if someone insists it is poetry, there is no argument other than to counter their subjective view of what poetry is with my own subjective view of what poetry is so if I am left to judge it as poetry, it is very cliched and anemic poetry.

 

[Liar]

As always it boils down to that, the individual's definition of poetry.

And frankly, I see people saying "This isn't poetry", when they encounter verse like the one above.

But so far, when I have asked "Why? Why do you call it 'not poetry', instead of just 'bad poetry'?" I haven't gotten a coherent answer. It seems to me like poetry-defining is mainly an excluding-sport for those people, where 'poetry' is what is left when you have taken away all that is 'not'.

To me poetry is the utilization of all language devices except mere semantics to enhance the experience for, and the reaction within, the reader. There is poetry in song lyrics, there is poetry in prose, and there is poetry in stand-up comedy monolouges. And you know, there is a lot of non-poetic elements in almost all poems too. Lines that just tell it, without any catalysator. Or maybe with the context as it's only catalysator. The way it seems to me is that people draw lines in the sand where it feel just about right for them, but when called upon, have a hard time defending why they draw them there.

So, brig, since you said it, and I know you are an articulate fella: What IS in your definition, poetry, as compared to what is not? And why do you call that 'not' instead of 'bad'?

Just curious.

 

[bogusbrig]

To me poetry is the utilization of all language devices except mere semantics to enhance the experience for, and the reaction within, the reader. There is poetry in song lyrics, there is poetry in prose, and there is poetry in stand-up comedy monolouges. And you know, there is a lot of non-poetic elements in almost all poems too. Lines that just tell it, without any catalysator. Or maybe with the context as it's only catalysator. The way it seems to me is that people draw lines in the sand where it feel just about right for them, but when called upon, have a hard time defending why they draw them there.

So, brig, since you said it, and I know you are an articulate fella: What IS in your definition, poetry, as compared to what is not? And why do you call that 'not' instead of 'bad'?

Just curious.

Now you've muddied the waters a little more. I thought we were comparing song lyrics to what are classically known as poems. I have to agree there is poetry in many uses of language and in the broadest sense of the word there is poetry in song lyrics. But if you are comparing song lyrics to what we classically call poems, I would say they aren't poems while they are poetic. Ultimately this is my opinion and a definition can only be reached through accepted consensus.

 

[TheRainMan]

The first time ever I saw your face
I thought the sun rose in your eyes
And the moon and stars were the gifts you gave
To the dark and the empty skies, my love,
To the dark and the empty skies.

The first time ever I kissed your mouth
And felt your heart beat close to mine
Like the trembling heart of a captive bird
That was there at my command, my love
That was there at my command.

The first time ever I lay with you
I felt the earth move in my hand
I thought our joy would fill the earth
And last 'till the end of time, my love,
And last 'till the end of time.
____________________________

even without music....poetry

What poetry is, is a subject that could be discussed endlessly, from every slant under the sun.

All I know is that when I read this without the music and voice, I cringe.

 

[Angeline]

What poetry is, is a subject that could be discussed endlessly, from every slant under the sun.

All I know is that when I read this without the music and voice, I cringe.

It's subjective. You cringe, he finds it poetic.

Was it Liar who said that most poems have some music in them and most music has some poetry in it? Something to that effect? And was it Tzara who brought up the point about Homeric verse being written to be sung? Maybe the poetry in all art, intended to be experienced as poetry or not, has more to do with the individual's reaction to it than anyone's (artist included) attempt to classify it.

And I think that is the point of your first statement, which is why I personally find questions like is a song a poem (all due respect sweet Charley) um pointless. There is no definitive answer.

 

[Liar]

Was it Liar who said that most poems have some music in them and most music has some poetry in it?

No, but it sounds cool, so I'll take the credit.

 

[champagne1982]

It's subjective. You cringe, he finds it poetic.
<snip>And I think that is the point of your first statement, which is why I personally find questions like is a song a poem (all due respect sweet Charley) um pointless. There is no definitive answer.

I'm so glad you're feeling better . While all the rest of us brace to reply, I can hear your voice

Resistance is futile. You have no argument. Repeat after me -- There is no right or wrong​

 

[Maria2394]

Im with TheRainMAn on the cringing at certain songs. I love many of them, when they are with music, but since I got serious about poetry, I find myself actually hearing the words and the structures, more than I used to. I listen to the way they are put together. Like today, Stand By Me came on the Lite station, and I thought, what a lovely poem. I love the PLatters too, their music was poetry to me before I had even thought about what a poem really is.

Yes, a song CAN be a poem, but a poem cannot always be a song, just my opinion. One I heard today made me cringe at the awful rhyme, it was Pat Benetar's Hit Me with Your Best Shot.

My daughter cracked up laughing at the "one tough cookie" line, all I could do was giggle, because I thought it was dorky when I heard it the first time, manyyears ago,....

and it rhymes and rhymes and rhymes, and they are bad rhymes, too ( again just my opinion)

 

[Maria2394]

It's subjective. You cringe, he finds it poetic.

Was it Liar who said that most poems have some music in them and most music has some poetry in it? Something to that effect? And was it Tzara who brought up the point about Homeric verse being written to be sung? Maybe the poetry in all art, intended to be experienced as poetry or not, has more to do with the individual's reaction to it than anyone's (artist included) attempt to classify it.

And I think that is the point of your first statement, which is why I personally find questions like is a song a poem (all due respect sweet Charley) um pointless. There is no definitive answer.

hey sis

while it may be pointless, tis a good point to ponder, is it not? Helps one define his/her own ideals of what constitutes poetry and how they might use that to shape their own work. debate and discussion are always good, especially if it causes poetry to happen in it's wake

 

[denis hale]

poet chick fight! YAY!

 

[normal jean]

poet chick fight! YAY!

NEVER!!! Maria LOVES angeline, and she was basically agreeing with her. Ange was the first one to welcome her to the poetry board besides WE

How the hell have you been, Mr Hale? and did you ever get a home ( besides here) For my favorite poem of yours? Cannon Beach Turnaround?

ohh, swooon, I love that poem...

IT should be a song...

 

[denis hale]

awwww

They could have a fake fight,
like the "WWF" {Wicked Writer Females}


Wow, I'm glad you like that poem.
I do believe it is still up at Lit.

Maria said she liked that poem too.


I know! I can tell her I'm gonna yank it down, unless she fights Angeline!

 

[annaswirls]

poet chick fight! YAY!

Happy Birthday, Mr. Hale!

 

[denis hale]

Thank You, Ms. Swirls!

 

[annaswirls]

Thank You, Ms. Swirls!

are you here to submit or just to encourage violence amongst the lovely ladies? I have to visit your blog, I have no idea what you are up to anymore. Trouble no doubt-- don't be a stranger, good to see your name on these boards. It is not the same without you. Throw us a bone every now and then, would ya?

 

[Maria2394]

are you here to submit or just to encourage violence amongst the lovely ladies? I have to visit your blog, I have no idea what you are up to anymore. Trouble no doubt-- don't be a stranger, good to see your name on these boards. It is not the same without you. Throw us a bone every now and then, would ya?

Hey, if he starts throwing his bones around, I am first in line!!!

oo, oo, do me first, do me first




happy b'day, dennis