Is it wrong to have age be vague?

[lovecraft68]

It irks me, too, but I simply make certain my character is at least 18 if I post a story to Lit. It's that simple. Even in published stories, though, where I can make a character younger, I don't make them as young as was really the case in much of antiquity.

What's funny is having to age the parents, because if I have all those eighteen year olds running around having first time sex, and I want them to have parents who were similarly legal, I'm dealing with ages where, historically, elders were often dead.

I understand why people want to bend the rules. I get it, it's their kink. Why they think everyone else needs to agree with their logic is what makes for interesting forum reading.

It's a kink when the entire purpose of the story is that the girl/guy is 13. when that is the sole attraction. It is not a kink if in certain situations the age makes sense. for people with that kink there is always asstr

why people like to try to bend rules here (well yeah there are the ones with the kink) is that its the number one site and thy would like their story here, but feel there is a reason (period piece or otherwise) that it makes sense to have the character younger.

 

[TimothyM]

I’m a real novice at Literotica, so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Why is it not OK to criticize the 18 year age limit on this site and saying that it is unrealistic and gives problems for authors? Or at least not without some people assuming that the reason you want to ‘circumvent the rule’ is that you want to write about ‘messing around with children’. I really hate paedophilia (and incest), but I’m still chafing under the underage limit being 18. It is annoying that I have to change my stories to comply with this rule (and no I have not submitted any stories yet, they need to be translated).
The age of consent in most countries in Europe (which is where I’m based) is around 15 or 16. Since the 1960ies that has also been the sex debut age for many young people not under moral restrictions from religion or parents etc. So although I realize that the 18 year limit imposed by Literotica probably has to do with legal matters not related to age of consent, and that there is no way around it, I still think it is fair to discuss how an author can write under this restriction and still come across as believable in his or her story.

 

[lovecraft68]

I’m a real novice at Literotica, so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Why is it not OK to criticize the 18 year age limit on this site and saying that it is unrealistic and gives problems for authors? Or at least not without some people assuming that the reason you want to ‘circumvent the rule’ is that you want to write about ‘messing around with children’. I really hate paedophilia (and incest), but I’m still chafing under the underage limit being 18. It is annoying that I have to change my stories to comply with this rule (and no I have not submitted any stories yet, they need to be translated).
The age of consent in most countries in Europe (which is where I’m based) is around 15 or 16. Since the 1960ies that has also been the sex debut age for many young people not under moral restrictions from religion or parents etc. So although I realize that the 18 year limit imposed by Literotica probably has to do with legal matters not related to age of consent, and that there is no way around it, I still think it is fair to discuss how an author can write under this restriction and still come across as believable in his or her story.

First off the reason it is wrong to express your opinion is that the owners of the site are NEVER wrong here. At least not in the eyes of the several toadies who will be descending upon you soon for having the gall to not agree. You will recognize them.

They all have the same response "If you don't like it leave" They would love you to because it leaves them here alone. Their loyalty is rewarded in contest wins and favoritism.

Now as to why they have the rule, it is simply their site and they can have whatever rules they wish. Pure and simple.

I understand your age of consent point. It's 16 throughout the majority of the US and that is about as young as I would ever want to write anyway. I like you, have no desire to write kiddie porn, but in categories such as 1st time everyone being 18+ annoys me.


I do write incest and in reality that would always occur before the ages of 18+ you're also screwed here if you want to try to really develop a character because it is difficult to even use an under 18 age even if there is no sex.

They claim they will allow that, but half the time they see the age and bother to write no further.

But again, it's their house and their rules, just like you have rules in your home so you have to deal with it or post under age stuff on storiesonline or another site smart enough to accept it.

I do want to stress one more point, and one that pisses off the masses here, but is the truth.

Literotica states they have the 18+ rule in effect to stay "out of trouble" with the Government and Law enforcement. Okay this is a bold face lie. There is no trouble to get into.

writing underage in fiction is legal. There are underage stories all over other sites and they have gotten in no trouble.

This is where some kool aid drinking dink comes in and says that underage draws pedo's to the site and that the law follows the pedo's and that is how the site could get in trouble.

Bullshit. There is no bigger pedo draw than facebook with its millions of teenage girls posting revealing pics of themselves and pedo's on the pretending to be teenage boys. There is undercover law enforcement all over that siet and they are not "in trouble"

It is simply the owners belief not to have underage stories and obviously they are entitled to that, but they feel the need to lie about their reasons just as they aren't straight forward or honest in any of their dealings.

again this is where someone steps in and cries about how they are god like in their honesty and can do no wrong. Soend enough time here you'll see the courtesy that the authors who make this site money are treated with.

They have a 1/2 dozen favs (as proved by the five or six writers who win the majority of the themed contests years after year) and everyone else can go to hell.

 

[cocput]

I just hate that disclaimer line

Write the bloody line on top and get it posted. Every reader who reads and votes your story, will easily figure out what was the intended age. At the end of the day, the number of votes is the only safe guarantee on the actual number of people who had read your story.

In incest category, the moment you write that a character had turned 18, the reader knows that you are lying about the actual age.
The best stories I have read had nothing to do with the age of the person. It's all about how the story was built. The readers want to know is how emotional aspects of the taboo was dealt with. Why should the son accept mom's sexual approaches or vice versa? The only exception is incest romance, where it is inherently understood that the problem is more about how characters convey their feelings than how they broke the relationship barrier.

 

[TimothyM]

Thank you for the reply, lovecraft68. I’m fine with Literotica making any rules they like, and that people might tell me just to accept it or leave the site. And I couldn’t care less about the site favourites thing - or about winning contests, as I’ll never enter my stories in a contest (assuming I dare to submit them at one point), claim a prize or want any kind of fame.
I’m just happy that other people also find it silly that the underage definition on Literotica is the age of majority (18 years) and not the age of consent. The logical thing in relation to sex is to use the latter limit for whatever country and age you are writing about, or they could use the present age of consent in the US, if they wanted to avoid people exploiting the lower age limit of other places in earlier times. And I’m so glad there does not seem to be a clear reason for the Literotica underage definition, i.e. some logical explanation I just very stupidly missed
In my own case, I have decided to see this as a challenge to my skills as an author: how good am I at inventing a realistic reason why this specific character did not have sex, or at least did not have the sexual experience that I’m describing, until he or she was 18. If it cannot be done without becoming too artificial, the story will just have to remain unsubmitted, frustrating as it may be.
So rather than a discussion about the unfairness of things unchangeable, I would like to see other authors share how they managed to make the age vague and get away with it, or how they dealt with the restriction in other ways. And not for incest stories, please, although this was the initial posting in this thread, because I agree it is even more ridiculous for that category considering the content. I liked the hints about ‘marriageable age’ above, but that does not work for contemporary times.

 

[Darkniciad]

For contemporary times and locations, you're always going to be dancing on the line. Your character is going to have to be mature beyond his or her years, the story is going to have to avoid any mentions of school ( which is pretty unrealistic for a character of that age ) so on, and so forth.

In all honesty, it's not worth the effort. Odds are that all the things you're going to have to gloss over or tweak are going to be part of the very reason you envision the character that age anyway.

If I have a story where it's that important ( only one so far ) I just post it elsewhere. You lose the massive number of readers you'd have at Lit, but that's just the way it is. If you have some way to connect your work across multiple sites ( Website, Blog, Facebook, Twitter, etc. ) then your core readers can cross over and find it easily enough.

 

[lovecraft68]

Thank you for the reply, lovecraft68. I’m fine with Literotica making any rules they like, and that people might tell me just to accept it or leave the site. And I couldn’t care less about the site favourites thing - or about winning contests, as I’ll never enter my stories in a contest (assuming I dare to submit them at one point), claim a prize or want any kind of fame.
I’m just happy that other people also find it silly that the underage definition on Literotica is the age of majority (18 years) and not the age of consent. The logical thing in relation to sex is to use the latter limit for whatever country and age you are writing about, or they could use the present age of consent in the US, if they wanted to avoid people exploiting the lower age limit of other places in earlier times. And I’m so glad there does not seem to be a clear reason for the Literotica underage definition, i.e. some logical explanation I just very stupidly missed
In my own case, I have decided to see this as a challenge to my skills as an author: how good am I at inventing a realistic reason why this specific character did not have sex, or at least did not have the sexual experience that I’m describing, until he or she was 18. If it cannot be done without becoming too artificial, the story will just have to remain unsubmitted, frustrating as it may be.
So rather than a discussion about the unfairness of things unchangeable, I would like to see other authors share how they managed to make the age vague and get away with it, or how they dealt with the restriction in other ways. And not for incest stories, please, although this was the initial posting in this thread, because I agree it is even more ridiculous for that category considering the content. I liked the hints about ‘marriageable age’ above, but that does not work for contemporary times.

Not sure many authors will post their "tricks" mainly because another author will find the story and report. Sadly things like that happen here.

As to the going with the age of consent in every country this site is read worldwide and not posted separately per country so that would be impossible.

It is fun to find your way around things to a degree, but like I said earlier and Darkincaid just reaffirmed if the age is a true factor post somewhere else.

BTW if you want anyone to help you slip around this, turn your private messaging on. As I said people will not post publicly, but will send you some private suggestions.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

TimothyM:

You might get a better discussion if you switch on your Private Messages. Go to User CP (top left of this page) then click on Edit Options (in the left hand column) and then tick Enable Private Messaging in the second box down. Make sure that the next box down (Receive Private Messages only from Buddies and Moderators) is NOT ticked. Finally click Save Changes at the bottom of that page.

 

[cocput]

Not sure many authors will post their "tricks" mainly because another author will find the story and report. Sadly things like that happen here.

Thanks for the warning. I was about to post a "trick".

PM sent.

 

[cocput]

You guys have made me think about a story where I will have to deal with a guy growing up.

The following query is for educational purposes only.

Can we say anything about the broad anatomy at all?

What I want to say is roughly:

Unlike other girls, Erica was pretty flat-chested. Even the girls who looked flat were having a small bump in their chest, but I could never make out anything in hers. Maybe, I should get her naked like Kiki to see it. Kiki had much bigger buttons than other girls. She had gone wild when I suckled it as i took her virginity.

Which are the words that are going to annoy the bot in the above passage?

I am not sure suckle will pass, but my guess is that others should create no problem.

PS: I will edit out the passage as soon as the doubt is cleared.

 

[PennLady]

I’m a real novice at Literotica, so forgive me for asking stupid questions. Why is it not OK to criticize the 18 year age limit on this site and saying that it is unrealistic and gives problems for authors? Or at least not without some people assuming that the reason you want to ‘circumvent the rule’ is that you want to write about ‘messing around with children’. I really hate paedophilia (and incest), but I’m still chafing under the underage limit being 18. It is annoying that I have to change my stories to comply with this rule (and no I have not submitted any stories yet, they need to be translated).

It's fine to criticize the age limit; you can even write to Laurel and Manu and ask them to change it, but I doubt they will. In fact, I find it hard to imagine that people haven't asked over the years. Still, it is a privately-owned and -run website, and that is their rule. I don't get as worked up about it as many people b/c it simply isn't an issue for me. I rarely write even about 18yo characters in sexual situations, never mind younger ages.

If it bothers you that much to change the ages, then I'm with those that say, post somewhere else. There are lots of other sites, and I can only guess there are some European-based ones as well, where there is no limit, or a younger limit than 18.

The age of consent in most countries in Europe (which is where I’m based) is around 15 or 16. Since the 1960ies that has also been the sex debut age for many young people not under moral restrictions from religion or parents etc. So although I realize that the 18 year limit imposed by Literotica probably has to do with legal matters not related to age of consent, and that there is no way around it, I still think it is fair to discuss how an author can write under this restriction and still come across as believable in his or her story.

Lit has hardly any restrictions, really. Over at EroticStories.com, they will not take incest or violence in their stories, in addition to underage. At LushStories.com, they have a very strict line on violence -- I had a story rejected b/c of a fight between a girl and her brother, a flashback scene that was not sexual. So I just don't post any stories that might break those rules at that site.

Literotica states they have the 18+ rule in effect to stay "out of trouble" with the Government and Law enforcement. Okay this is a bold face lie. There is no trouble to get into.

writing underage in fiction is legal. There are underage stories all over other sites and they have gotten in no trouble.

This may be, but it really doesn't matter why they have the rule. It's their site, as you said, and they can have any rules they want. Just like EroticStories or LushStories.

 

[lovecraft68]

You guys have made me think about a story where I will have to deal with a guy growing up.

The following query is for educational purposes only.

Can we say anything about the broad anatomy at all?

What I want to say is roughly:

Unlike other girls, Erica was pretty flat-chested. Even the girls who looked flat were having a small bump in their chest, but I could never make out anything in hers. Maybe, I should get her naked like Kiki to see it. Kiki had much bigger buttons than other girls. She had gone wild when I suckled it as i took her virginity.

Which are the words that are going to annoy the bot in the above passage?

I am not sure suckle will pass, but my guess is that others should create no problem.

PS: I will edit out the passage as soon as the doubt is cleared.

The words themselves are not an issue. What might be is the way I read it I am assuming you're talking about a young girl, especially if her tits haven't popped yet. Then again you're not saying an age. I would let it fly as is. If they kick it back then worry about it.

Yes suckle should be replaced with "suck" suckle makes me think breast feeding.

 

[PennLady]

You guys have made me think about a story where I will have to deal with a guy growing up.

The following query is for educational purposes only.

Read the first post in this thread. It is a message from Laurel in which she explains about underage stuff.

 

[lovecraft68]

Read the first post in this thread. It is a message from Laurel in which she explains about underage stuff.

Then does not follow her own explanation half the time. Unless its out right sexual, just try it. In this case if he is not stating an age it will be up to what she reads into it.

More accurately what she "skims" into it. By her won admission she does not read everything, she can't. If its blatant its wrong to try, but in case like this I don't think its a big deal.

 

[cocput]

I quit an earlier site, because I had issues writing certain type of stories there, especially from a readership perspective. I guess each site has its own issues. We just have to live with it.

I hadn't explicitly stated the age there. In the actual built up to this part, I will have to indicate the age. The story is about how the protagonist's school crush becomes his wife. To give a hint about the character's antics, 10 yrs down the line, Erica would become the last girl in his class that he would take.

I think I will have to litter the first part of the story with many such hints, till he completes college.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Literotica has never varied their stance and there are a number of quotes to show it.
In 2001:

Our decision to not accept stories that include scenes of sexual relations involving people under the age of 18 is not meant as a slight to those who write those stories, nor is it meant as a moral judgment on such stories. We do not feel comfortable posting stories involving sex with young children. Therefore, an age line had to be drawn. For convenience sake, we drew it at the age of consent in our area - 18 years of age. It's that simple.

We do not believe that ANY fiction should be banned or forbidden. We are staunchly against government censorship. However, we do have the right as a private entity to set our own rules. There are many sites which do accept stories involving underage persons, so there's no need for us to do so.

I personally do not believe that fiction of any kind can force a healthy person to act in unhealthy ways. Rapists may be drawn to rape fiction, but many many healthy people can also enjoy non-consent fantasies without feeling compelled to act. In fact, such fiction can be a catharsis. I think we start down a dangerous road when we begin shifting blame from criminals to things like media and art.

We appreciate your input, and hope you understand our position. Good discussion.

And 2002:

I've always believed that words are just words. I don't put fiction in the same class as reality - if it was, then war novels and murder mysteries would be appalling. I've also been a teen, and know that teens are sexual beings. We're not saying that no one under 18 has ever had any sexual thoughts. We know that most people lose their virginity under the age of 18. I know I did.

I know it's an inconvenience for writers at times, but I want you to know that our over-18 policy is not born out of some moral nor legal standard (though we are staunchly against pedophilia). It is there to keep us out of unnecessary trouble. No matter where we draw the line, there will be people who think it unfair. However, as we are not ready to publish stories involving children, we must draw a line. Minors in the US are those under the age of 18, so that's the safest line to draw. If we were in GB, the age would probably be 16...and those in countries where 12 is the legal age of consent might find THAT constraining.

Here in the US, the age issue is a touchier deal than rape or anything else. Technically, fiction featuring under age sex is perfectly legal - as is fiction which features murder or rape - but those currently "in power" would like to make such fiction (as well as all adult material) illegal. A man was recently put in jail for writing fictitious stories about underage children IN HIS PRIVATE JOURNAL. The man was on parole, but it still sets a very bad legal precedent. Like I said, we feel the need to draw the line somewhere, and 18 just makes the most sense for us in many ways.

That said, we have no problem with writers of such stories or sites that publish such stories. It's just not something we publish. There are sites that won't publish incest. There are sites that feel comfortable publishing a wider variety of fiction. Asstr.org, I think, will accept underage, and White Shadow does as well.

If you ever have any questions regarding this or anything else in the submission guidelines or any part of the site, please drop me a PM or an email or start a thread here.

 

[lovecraft68]

Literotica has never varied their stance and there are a number of quotes to show it.
In 2001:

And 2002:

Varied the stance? No, fairly enforced it? Never

 

[elfin_odalisque]

You could try that sentence. If you don't include a note in the notes box that none of the characters is under eighteen, you quite possibly are facing another rejection. The note won't appear on the story; it's to bring the story to the attention of the human editor for review. You still could be rejected, though, if you don't put specific reference in the story to the character being over 18. Parent-child incest pretty much assumes underage unless specifically disclaimered (and I'm willing to bet the underage angle is what a lot of readers of incest are hoping to find--and that a lot of writers of it are hoping to imply).

Do you ever read anything? Laurel has posted that your cyber-worry of being controlled by bots is as insane as most ideas flowing in the soup between your ears. She said that all posts are checked by homo sapiens before posting.

 

[lovecraft68]

Do you ever read anything? Laurel has posted that your cyber-worry of being controlled by bots is as insane as most ideas flowing in the soup between your ears. She said that all posts are checked by homo sapiens before posting.

Not only that, but allegedly one human that admittedly can't read everything. Best bet on anything is to let it fly and cross your fingers.

When people hit the report button half the time it does not work. When people pm her she responds to very few.

When she does respond it all depends on who you are and how much ass you lick on whether or not she'll do anything.

 

[sr71plt]

She hadn't said anything like that before this last explanation, and I was repeating what had been passed on by others on the board in trying to helpful in the absence of the website itself being clear. I haven't given any advice on that at all since the first statement made about it by the website. (It's still not clear what happens, by the way. The explanation wasn't all that clear--for instance in the frequently asked question of the views mounting up while the story is still in pending.)

And, never fear, since I get shit dumped on me by such as the two above posters for trying to be helpful in answering questions that come up that the website hasn't made clear, I just won't try being helpful anymore. I'll let Elfin and Lovecraft68 and other backbiters handle that from now on.

 

[lovecraft68]

She hadn't said anything like that before this last explanation, and I was repeating what had been passed on by others on the board in trying to helpful in the absence of the website itself being clear. I haven't given any advice on that at all since the first statement made about it by the website. (It's still not clear what happens, by the way. The explanation wasn't all that clear--for instance in the frequently asked question of the views mounting up while the story is still in pending.)

And, never fear, since I get shit dumped on me by such as the two above posters for trying to be helpful in answering questions that come up that the website hasn't made clear, I just won't try being helpful anymore. I'll let Elfin and Lovecraft68 and other backbiters handle that from now on.

And where am I backbiting you here?

Only backbiting I'm doing is to the owner as the explanation is still not overly clear and you and others have been repeating something that had to have been started by this site at some point because you got it from people before you(which is going way back) then it gets people like me repeating it and others and etc....

Then she posts a semi coherent statement and some people here blow the trumpet and genuflect because she came down from on high and deigned to tell us something.

And I am in agreement with you that it would be nice of her to give an answer to the ridiculously posted about "view" glitch. But that would require something she does not possess and that is respect to the people who draw people to this site.

And in case you're wondering I was not including you in the bootl icking dept(for once) I am referring to people like Dark/ Tx Dg hear and a couple of others who pay her lip service and combined coincidentally have more contest wins than the rest of lit combined. Those are the boot lickers.

You have no W's so apparently need to start licking harder.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, you backbite me whenever you get a tenth of a chance.

I will agree that the regular posters here are carrying a whole lot of water for the website administrators' failure--for whatever reasons--to provide clear guidance on several issues that are queried on this forum on a daily basis. And those of us who have been contributing to the website by trying to field these questions don't need the type of shit Elfin and others spout when it turns out that years and years of one "institutional wisdom" explanation or other that regulars have been trying to give to help newcomers "get it right" in the face of either absent or hazy or hard to find website guidance turns out to be not how the administrators really do it--but haven't bothered to address these misconceptions themselves.

So, I'll just stop. Since one of those issues that the website owners won't take care of themsevles--that e-mailing them is a deadletter exercise even though their longstanding formal guidance is to e-mail them with questions--I guess a lot of newcomers could just be out of luck.

Or they can ask Elfin.

 

[Darkniciad]

Yeah, there's a lot of favoritism showing in my 3 Ws after 176 submissions, 50 of which are contest entries, and 7 years on the site

If complaining about things without frothing at the mouth and injecting my complaints into every unrelated thread on the forum makes me what you define as a bootlicker, it's a title I wear with pride.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Well, yes, I suppose so. But like I said, if that's against the rules here, why do it? There are other sites; perhaps not as big as this with as many readers, but them's the breaks.



Yes, I can understand that. It would bother me, too, if I wrote such a thing b/c I'd want to be accurate.

One thing that I have considered doing in period pieces is to have the characters as part of some kind of convent. Think about it, a monk or a nun would stay virginal past the normal age, and that could even add a sort of religious taboo that a lot of people like.

 

[PennLady]

One thing that I have considered doing in period pieces is to have the characters as part of some kind of convent. Think about it, a monk or a nun would stay virginal past the normal age, and that could even add a sort of religious taboo that a lot of people like.

I'm not usually much on the historical romances, but I've read a few -- not just talking Lit here -- and a common element I've seen in many is that the women are simply not "taken" when they come out into society. This is mainly for the "Regency" romances, I guess? Involving the London ton and things like that. The woman may have refused matches, b/c she wanted to marry for love and not money, or she may have family issues that make her a less than preferred catch, things like that. So many of the ones I've read have women in their early 20s, even, before they get involved and/or have sex. Oh another way to do this is to have the woman married at a young age and then widowed; that way you know she's not a virgin, but since it occurred prior to the story being told, it doesn't matter whether she was under 18, and then she's over 18 for the story.