I've found a fundamental truth.

[ultramarineblue]

Shrinks do manipulate their clients at times, but that is part of what they do to get to certain goals and to help them improve lives. You would have to be there to "help" because that is the basic premise of the entire psychiatric profession, to help people work out their problems in order to live a better life, or to put them in a place where they won't be a danger to themselves or others.

But that is not lieng or cheating or twisting their will, and the only time a shrink would have to override your will is if your will was harming you, messing up your life or harming others.

So I don't quite understand your thought process regarding that.

When I help someone, I generally get more out of the experience than they do. When I teach someone something, I actually end up learning the material better than they do. When I give someone something, especially something they couldn't get for themselves, I get the benefit of knowing I made a difference in their life. Call me selfish, but I like doing things for other people because of how it makes me feel.

I can see where he is coming from about saying that he would be doing it for himself. I think that by saying that he's looking at the real motives for his own behavior instead of what the socially accepted motive should be.

 

[ataxia.girl]

It also made me see that a lot of my daddy type, protective nature was a leftover artifact from the past where I've been conditioned to help others. So I'm done with trying to be good all the time and instead I'm going to be me, if that upsets some people it's not me who has the issue.

i haff things to say about this but am too drunk right now to say em. Maybe tomorrow. my favoritist Daddy asides my own Daddy to listen to is Eminem and not cuz he is such a good guy tryin to help everyone. i like how angry and fucked up he is. my Daddy says a Daddy is someone who has a little girl. Got nuffing to do wif how good he is. If u have a little girl u r a Daddy and if u don't, you aren't. Kinda simple.

 

[SlaveNienna]

Some of it gets philosophical but in a nutshell... we are all indoctrinated from birth to try to do the right thing, to make things fair and even, to see the good guy as the hero and so on...

So we tend to suppress our more base natures in favor of the ones that are taught by society, it's no big secret that those in bdsm tend to reject those moral teachings or at least parts of them. We also bend and give so that we don't end up being burned at the stake so we end up compromising.

I was contemplating this along with my own frustrations in trying to fit in. Specifically I was thinking of how I could not scare people or set off their sense of self preservation which makes them see me as someone dangerous. Well, it's not gonna happen so I decided that it's easier to just relax about it and be myself unapologetically.

This morning though I was pondering some of my own darker thoughts and desires and then it hit me. Sin. All of these things are either a sin or illegal or just plain damn kinky and pretty outside of the norm. I thought of the lil babies and how the established church says that they are innocent and free from sin. Then about how we are to avoid sinning or to punish ourselves for having sinned. It struck me that the church and society brainwashes us so that we grow old and die just as innocent as the lil babies.

This struck me as very wrong in that as with some of the more introspective religions say we are here to learn and grow. The Buddhists say we are seeking enlightenment and I think I've discovered some part of that.

We are all here not to remain innocent but to sin. It is through sin either real or perceived that we can examine our own darker natures. We come into the world innocent and clean but that isn't the way we should stay. We need to find everything within us both naughty and nice and explore it, understand it and fold it back into who we are as we learn and grow.

Some of these things can be done solo as in a thought exercise but that only gets one so far. We need partners who are willing to let us explore these parts of ourselves without judgement and with whom we can reciprocate and let them explore, understanding who they are as well.

Rasputin had a similar philosophy in part but his idea was to know what sin is by doing it so that you can know what you are repenting, cleansing from your soul in preparation for the afterlife.... I'm not buying this whole repent thing. It assumes one feels guilty about parts of themselves. I'm thinking that one has to accept every part of themselves and grow as a person. I think that once you master parts of yourself that a lot of stress goes away, obsessions go away and you can end up in a really lovely state of existence. With all of the evil one can imagine just below the placid surface, ready to come forth when needed as well as all of the loving, nurturing things.

Everything in moderation and in controlled fashion, you shouldn't run out and start robbing banks or raping nuns.

It also made me see that a lot of my daddy type, protective nature was a leftover artifact from the past where I've been conditioned to help others. So I'm done with trying to be good all the time and instead I'm going to be me, if that upsets some people it's not me who has the issue.

~Applause~
As Hubris rises, Nemesis falls. With birth there is death, and in death, rebirth. There is a place for everything, a place for good, a place for evil, the sacred balance that is life. To reject this balance is to reject life.
Very nice!

 

[eastern sun]

Ok, let us toss theology completely aside and go just with human behaviour. We all have darker sides to our nature.

I'm feeling here that the thing to do is not fight that darker nature but instead to wholly incorporate it into our self which will yield a person who is complete or as complete as he/she can be. Not to just let that darkness out to play once in a while in a dungeon but to use it to our utmost advantage daily in life. Like not being a sucker for a salesman or politician. Not letting co-workers, friends, spouses, bosses take advantage of us.

I think that once the pent up frustrations are let out and have reached an even point then you can take control of them and use them like tools.

I also don't think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate, twist and override the will of others. As long as you are having fun... your idea of fun may differ from mine.

For instance, if I ever became a psychologist or psychiatrist I wouldn't be doing it to "help" others but for my own personal gain. I might "help" others in the process but not out of some universal sense of good.

And God/Satan... not buying it.. I see that whole thing more as a description of the most extreme ends of human behaviours. That we all have both in us but most lie somewhere in the middle.

In my opinion, nothing is inherently wrong. We humans lay value judgement on our actions, based on our interpretations of the outcomes.

What we can't avoid are the consequences of what we do.

 

[graceanne]

What we can't avoid are the consequences of what we do.

I was going to kinda point this out.

Be bad. Be an asshole, that's everyone's prerogative. Just remember, that it's the worlds prerogative to find ways to make you pay for your assholeness. That includes everything from not being around you to sending you to jail. Depends on what you did that's bad.

 

[philosophygirl]

your conscience is the measure of the honesty of your selfishness...

listen to it carefully.




the truth you speak
has no past and no future
it is, and that's all it needs to be.




richard bach

 

[Betticus]

How many times has a guy lied in order to try and get you to have sex with him?

How many times has a girl lied to spare a guys ego?

How many times has a parent lied to a child in order to preserve what they view as their innocence?

How many times has a child lied to a parent even though their lil hand was right in the cookie jar when mom walked into the kitchen?

 

[SlaveNienna]

Very interesting. So here are a couple phrases from Albert Einstein that I would like to quote. Not to say that I agree with everything he ever said about ehics, but these statements tweak my interest.

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
- Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge..."
- Albert Einstein, quoted in: All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists, by Madalyn Murray O'Hair

 

[SlaveNienna]

And also, to quote Newton's third law of motion,
"To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
It was written in regards to physics, but I believe that many natural laws apply to the spiritual realm as well. Keep this in mind while manifesting your actions, of whatever nature they may be.

 

[SlaveNienna]

Sorry to use so many quotes in my response, but a great teacher of mine once told me that if you have a thought, search for a quote because someone else has probably already said it better. So, to quote my favorite literature, the Sword of Truth series, here is the Wizard's Sixth Rule. I believe that it applies to this conversation as one is searching deep inside oneself for ethics, the differentiation between right action and wrong action. I believe in what is written here because though your feelings as well as the morality taught to you may guide you on this path, the only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason.

"The most important rule there is, the Wizard's Sixth Rule: the only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. The first law of reason is this: what exists, exists, what is, is and from this irreducible bedrock principle, all knowledge is built. It is the foundation from which life is embraced.

Thinking is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts nor are they a means to discover them. Reason is our only way of grasping reality, it is our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss that we refuse to see. Faith and feelings are the darkness to reasons light. In rejecting reason, refusing to think, one embraces death."
(Faith of the Fallen, Chapter 41, Page #319 US Hard Cover)

 

[greystardust]

We happen to be recycled molecules.

Whatever was going on a thousand years ago, two thousand, ten thousand... is recorded in the atoms that that make us up (in the very first cell, sperm and egg, from generation to generation and so on).

Reason builds the aeroplane 10 thousand years after neanderthal man picks up a club.

But reason cannot touch the instinct that desires a fuck.

Reason confuses all the molecules by thinking what is right and what is wrong.

But it has given us wonders - like electricity and running water.

The instinct has only one purpose - not growth, not spirituality, not a higher ambition - just survival.

 

[SlaveNienna]

But reason cannot touch the instinct that desires a fuck.

Ah, but you have overlooked the first rule of reason, what is, is. Seek your quiet mind, search within and you will find the source of reason. I want to fuck, this is true, it is, though you have used your emotions you have also used deductive reasoning to realize this. Reasoning is more than just published words in textbooks. Have you ever done proofs in high school geometry class? Well, if you haven't, proofs (for the most part) state the obvious. You can see two angles are the same with your eyes (intuition) but to prove it you must use reasoning. Reasoning is the foundation from which all knowledge is built.

 

[ataxia.girl]

How many times has a guy lied in order to try and get you to have sex with him?

How many times has a girl lied to spare a guys ego?

How many times has a parent lied to a child in order to preserve what they view as their innocence?

How many times has a child lied to a parent even though their lil hand was right in the cookie jar when mom walked into the kitchen?

my impulse to lie always came from fear of not being accepted as myself. i was conditioned to lie by omission though, to pretend to be perfect... Anyway... Daddy found me and has proved to me time and again he does not fear the truth and accepts me any way that i am.

i do not spare his ego... ever. Life does not spare mine. Why i should spare his unless i believe he is weaker than me?

 

[rowyn]

Just thought I'd pop in and say thank you for this aweome thread.

I admit to being brought up in a semi-religious home, and struggling with said teachings when I discoverd bdsm. Much guilt and thought later, I've come to a conclusion:

God or no God, we need to love ourselves, as we are, perverted, deep-dark natures and all. If we can't forgive ourselves, how can we ever expect anyone else to, let along an all-powerful Creator? We as humans put too much thought into whether or not what we're doing is right or wrong.

I personally choose to love and have faith in myself, all of myself, including my submissive nature.

 

[Que]

Everything in moderation and in controlled fashion, you shouldn't run out and start robbing banks or raping nuns.

No, I would agree that one should work up to such pursuits.

This wasn't the thread I was thinking of but its in the ballpark and could use resurrecting anyway.

I grew up in a family that were members of what is considered by most to be a fairly rigid fundamentalist religion.

Dear old dad was a convert and brought with him only the most rigid parts of his childhood religion to augment the already over-arching repression. Spare the rod and spoil the child was a favorite of his I suspect. During a bout of teenage depression he asked if I was having "repentance problems." I though repentance was the solution to the problem of sin...I dunno.

Mom had some kind of history, never stated..abuse? promiscuity? Never knew. She both sent the message that a peek at the foundation garment section of the J.C. Penny's catalog would cause me to rot in eternal torment, yet complained that my hyper modest sister would never "get a man dressing like a baptist school marm."

I managed to retain my virginity by fending off the advances of my quite experienced girlfriend until the wedding night. That got me no brownie points with her. Nearly two decades later after a marriage with lots of outstanding. creative and imaginative sex, but all in a monogamous setting, I find myself single and with regrets about my early chastity, my fidelity, and the boundaries that we discussed and agreed to remain within.

I recoiled at liking the first time I slapped her recreationally, but grew comfortable with mutually agreed on kink that had underlying respect. I got my head around it, but there was always a thought that "this is wrong." We at one point were together even here on lit. We enjoyed the accolades of our picture thread, and especially her incite-full comments here and on our fairly well read sex-blog.

She had bisexual fantasies that we decided were best left at that lest adding a third tear at the fabric of our 'holy' union. She used to look wistfully at the corona's when we would eat at mexican restaurants. "you'd like me drunk" she would say. My response was always I like you pretty well sober. I wondered though what she might be like with what seemed unlikely - lower inhibitions. She came from a completely un-repressed permissive environ.

She started drinking after two decades of abstinence, and I found I did not in fact like her better drunk. She was a fairly selfish and lazy lover drunk. But I tried alcohol for the first time to show her I wasn't judging her. I found that contrary to her predictions I am not an abusive drunk, not even as she suggested I would be more so on hard liquor. A nice triple distilled Irish whiskey mellows me and quiets my over-active mind. ~shrug~

Well when she hit her midlife crisis and planned a new life with a troll she met in a bar I was careful not to react in ways that altered my own values and faith. the first six months to a year of her living in open adultery with her boyfriend in a small town, I tried to socialize but maintained my boundaries. I didn't drink as that was never my thing. I expected some sort of reward or benefit for my devotion. I know, virtue should be it's own reward. What kind of reward sexually speaking is abstinence? But I abstained. Still have.

But I won't.

The church supposedly renowned for being patriarchal and keeping women in the place basically shrugged. They didn't give any disapproving signal when she obstructed the children's church attendance. Everyone was so intent on "not judging" that my 15 year old simply describes her mom as having "moved on." She feels that its ok, because mom seems "really happy". On good days I hope she is. Really. But the 65 lbs she has put on suggests to me from past history that she has some conflict.

The financial devastation, the fact that I have not had any access even still two years later to personal mementos and personal possessions is inconsequential. All just stuff , and for me a packrat, probably a service to start over. Losing the house I generously allowed her to keep, lost within a year. I had worked and saved since 14 and was frugal throughout my marriage knowing my function in life is to have a family and support them. The fact I was always able to do so but only by the skin of my teeth was a "blessing" bestowed from on high. I believed this. two years later, even with restarting a life buying a new household full of clothes and beds and minimal furniture, I have nearly as much saved as when I got married. How exactly was this divinely inspired partnership arrangement enriching to me?

So a buddy takes me for "therapy". Too a 'gentleman's club.

Nothing like the den of iniquity I had assumed was described in sermons about how the spirit cannot dwell in such places. How the women are coerced and fallen and drugged to tolerate the exploitation and degradation.

I spent $60 and met a compassionate empath how basically held my hand for a couple of hours and truly listened to me in a way that seemed much more intimate, and a whole lot less sexual than my marriage had been at its low points. TO be fair my marriage and my wife at their best was the envy of those on the outside, and they didn't get to see the really special parts. The "rosebushes".

But what of those good parts occurred because of the influence of religion? None of them. When we met I was a church attender, she a "fallen woman". Six months later she is the toast of the church, and I still wallow in guilt over childhood explorations, missteps and sin. Now that the divorce is final, if her boyfriend ever gets around to divorcing his 2nd wife and the marry, they will be welcomed with open arms in the church. repentance redemption all that. and good for them. Truly. But what was the point of our marriage? How are my children drug through the trauma of open adultery and flashes of bitterness in the divorce and now from a "broken home" and now in a modern "re-combined" family better off than parents "living in sin" in love with their children?

The church can't force my wife or myself to choose fidelity and marriage and hard work and compromise. But on the other hand, what is their influence. I didn't see any. the prospect of fiery damnation failed to scare. The prospect of eternal splendor failed to entice. Any cultural framework that doesn't seem to have any effect on behavior has no real purpose.

I am finding that I feel genuinely uplifted in "den's of iniquity." The other day I was making the very long journey back home after visiting the kids. I had very little money left after visiting the kids which for me now that I allowed a move to a major metro area so she could obtain employment. Its pretty expensive to basically be on vacation 120 days a year. Rooms, meals etc. so I watch the pennies.

I wasn't completely kidding when I told a woman no thanks to a dance..."I come here for the cheap food." $7.50 for ribeye steak and a baked potato is pretty good.

So I have maybe $15 left in my pocket. The place is crowded. With dancers. Starving dancers. I am eating steak.

One especially down in the mouth looked like she might be attractive if she lost the scowl. I thought of telling her I used to see that look on my ex's face and I didnt have to pay to see it.

Instead I engaged her a bit, she was planning on leaving...too many dancers, not going to make any money.

I bought a dance, told her to leave the money iin her waistband..she walked 8 feet and another customer hired her...

I couple of hours later, I had made a friend of a headliner who really didn't flinch when I explained I havent any money to spend. She came back and chatted amiably between customers. We had interesting philosophical discussions on polyamory, BDSM and coercion, the sex worker trade, self esteem. It was definitely a conversation worth noting and it wouldn't have happened in a church parking lot.

The dancer with the scowl had a angelic look on her face when she gave me a hug as I left..she said "God bless you!, You changed my night!" Would the $11 I put in her g-string have been as helpful in a collection plate?

 

[bdsm_lover]

Interesting thread people. Great mental stimulation while at work. haha Why has no one mentioned Anton LaVey yet? Find this surprising...