lable me this, batman:

[Netzach]

Jesus, woman! You've gotta be kidding. Relative to whom?

Again - I think one's perspective depends a lot on where one usually hangs out.

In some settings, I'm practically vanilla. In others, I'm the wildest, most controlling and sadistic so-and-so that anybody's ever seen.
I expect a partner of mine to do something she might not find enjoyable in order to please me, period.

I'm not in it to train her to reach some abstract sexual milestone or goal, or because I think her sexual development has any value beyond the training that occurs simply because I find it hot.

I just don't see sex that way. I'm mood driven - passionate in the moment, rather than driven to achieve some sort of long-term sexual life plan.

Heh. It takes a lot of forethought before I actually get my pussy into something. It's not because there must be luvvvvvv but there does have to be a lot of emotional safety for me on some level. And control - if I don't feel like I can start and stop the ride on some level - well you know, I'm sure.

I guess because sex has as much identity politic and is loaded up for me, largely due to my OWN interests and history and outlook, yeah, I can see how it differs. If I'm doing something sadistic to someone it IS just to get me wet sometimes -- but more often there's a cathartic and mental satisfaction part that's much bigger, and it does beg a lot of questions about who am I, where am I going, from whence do I come stuff. That's not some kind of weird "I have to be an SM equivalent of a political lesbian" thing, it's just that there is so much pleasure for me in the implications, reversals, perverse positions of D/s and S/m

I'm also 34. This may all be kind of a "big whoop" in another 15 years and getting off gratia getting off more important.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not trying to speak for Netz here, but I just wanted to point out something that I've noticed myself.

There is a huge, huge, huge difference between the carefully thought-out, experimented, and studied "not interested" that you claim and the off-the-cuff BS that a lot of people (particularly het male PYLs, though you see it pretty often in het female pyls as well) spout about their orientation.

All the parts of your post I've quoted are important, I think, the part I bolded, especially. The difference between you and the generally insecure nutball PYLs who fanatically proclaim that they could never lower themselves to ever bottoming to anyone is that you recognize that most anyone can be "trained" to enjoy something they may or may not have been initially interested in.

That's what happened to me, actually. I started out as a pyl, myself. Then, I Topped some, mostly because Kitty and an old boyfriend wanted to try the things they did to me. The first few times, I felt clumsy and awkward. Eventually, with Kitty, I learned to actually enjoy what I was doing. With the ex-boyfriend, not so much (which was more a matter of his idiocy than anything). So I decided that while I enjoyed Topping women, I wasn't interested in doing it with men.

Time dragged on, as it always does, and I changed my mind again after I had some more experiences Topping men. I decided I liked that as well. Now, I've basically gone away from bottoming altogether, though I imagine I'll come back to it eventually. I've essentially trained myself to enjoy things I didn't initially care for, hence the switch label. Some call me confused, but I call me honest. Heck, the first time I had sex, I didn't like that, either. It hurt like the devil. That hasn't stopped me since, though.

Anyway, the point of this long and rambly post is that the only real difference between someone like you and someone like me is that you tried it, didn't care for it, recognized that you could possibly be taught to enjoy it, and said, "Oh, well, screw it, I'm not interested enough to go there." I tried it, didn't care for it, recognized that I could possibly be taught to enjoy it, and said, "Ok, I'm going to see where I can go with this." So, essentially, you and I have the same mindsets; we've just gone to two different places with it. That totally separates us from the people who are too insecure to recognize that capability within themselves.

And I'll still argue that someone who's bottomed before will make the best Top. Flexibility and the versatile flowiness (is that a word?) of sexual energy is where it's at, at least for me, but I suppose that's another thread.

This is a great post, and I agree with all of it.

The only thing I would add is that, while it may be true that there are a lot of "het male PYLs" and "het female pyls" spouting the "off-the-cuff BS" you mention (particularly online), in RL there are a great many who do not. They mostly fly under the radar, though - perhaps because organized clubs with a firmly entrenched culture tend to attract one type more so than the other.

 

[JMohegan]

Heh. It takes a lot of forethought before I actually get my pussy into something. It's not because there must be luvvvvvv but there does have to be a lot of emotional safety for me on some level. And control - if I don't feel like I can start and stop the ride on some level - well you know, I'm sure.

I guess because sex has as much identity politic and is loaded up for me, largely due to my OWN interests and history and outlook, yeah, I can see how it differs. If I'm doing something sadistic to someone it IS just to get me wet sometimes -- but more often there's a cathartic and mental satisfaction part that's much bigger, and it does beg a lot of questions about who am I, where am I going, from whence do I come stuff. That's not some kind of weird "I have to be an SM equivalent of a political lesbian" thing, it's just that there is so much pleasure for me in the implications, reversals, perverse positions of D/s and S/m

I'm also 34. This may all be kind of a "big whoop" in another 15 years and getting off gratia getting off more important.

Yes, yes, and yes.

You have what I've started thinking of as a millennial view of human relations. I understand why, and I respect it, but my head just doesn't work that way - and my cock sure as hell doesn't either.

As for the age thing - ha! You know what? That could be true, and it's possible that in some ways we aren't all that different. Back in the day, pretty much anything I ever did on the kink side was "flexible and adventurous", at least compared to my known peers, because it was pre-Internet, pre-munches, etc. Everything's relative - including time and place.

 

[Netzach]

pre-Internet, pre-munches

Jesus. Are people still even going to fuck when I'm 55?

 

[JMohegan]

Jesus. Are people still even going to fuck when I'm 55?

Ha, ha - no idea.

I'll be 50 in March. The world is so different from what it was when I came of age. Sometimes it seems as if people are people, and nothing really essential has actually changed. Other times I feel like a total dinosaur.

Depends on the day and the topic, I guess. A thread on picking a mate from a collarme profile leaves me thinking - jesus christ.

 

[Netzach]

This actually brings things around to labelling.

I have found some kind of a division, I'm not sure what yet, in people who have

1. found SM via the internet

or 2. found SM on the internet via being into SM and meeting people and then being brought into their online social circles too.

I'm sure there are still SOME sexual minorities in the technologically enabled world who don't go online, but most people probably do to not feel like a freak.

There aren't any good non-derogatory labels about that though. Sometimes I wish there were.

My first contacts were actually found through the back page of the paper, just like H made his 30 years ago. I found out about various websites from people I met. I was completely web illiterate at the time, though that changed quickly. So for me it's kind of a both/neither thing.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Blissfully aware that I am heterosexual & submissive this thread scares me a little

"Blissful" due to my own specific personal confidence followed by the ensuing & inevitable comfort in my own skin . Apparently I am only a freak on the BDSM Board as I am not bisexual, a switch and poly.

: smiling & laughing here :

My personal set of labels are no more up for challenge than the facts that I am Australian, a woman and a parent.

I have submitted to a dominant woman, I still do occasionally. I am not bottoming, there is a genuine ongoing emotional responsibility on both our parts, dare I say a relationship. To me, that equates with submission. It's not sexual, it's my choice to participate or not. She thrives on the types of influence & pain she is able to exert over me. When she chooses to. I fluctuate between momentarily hating her and having the most incredible amount of respect & affection. Either way, the dynamic is precious to me, it spans several years.

I have had enough years of exploration, yadda yadda.

It's one area of self reflection that I can well leave alone.

To all whom have participated with discussing their own exploration, dynamics and take on ascribing characteristics to labels on this thread, thank you.

It makes for ongoing & fascinating reading

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Apolgies to Netz & Mr Mohegan for breaking the flow....

I was writing a post and doing stuff, important stuff !

Time dragged on apparently, could have saved my post to a quieter moment on this thread. Please feel free to ignore me : laughs :

 

[Netzach]

I was writing a post and doing stuff, important stuff !

Time dragged on apparently, could have saved my post to a quieter moment on this thread. Please feel free to ignore me : laughs :

Why on earth would I ignore you?

I don't mean to monopolize, sorry.

 

[callinectes]

A Callinectes sighting!

I don't think switches are necessarily more honest. What I would say is that they are more sexually flexible and adventurous, as a general rule.

But even switches say things like: "For some reason, the idea of submitting to a woman leaves me cold" or "I love switching! Oh -- except, I could never enjoy bottoming to a straight male Top, of course."

Since everybody has limits on what types arouse them sexually, whether relating to gender, size, shape, age, appearance, personality, political preference, sexual orientation, BDSM ID, level of kink, etc., even the generalization about switches being more flexible and adventurous is sometimes off the mark.

Be still my heart; JM noticed my absence.

Yes, that's the bad thing about generalizations, they generally leave out both ends of the bell curve.

 

[callinectes]

This actually brings things around to labelling.

I have found some kind of a division, I'm not sure what yet, in people who have

1. found SM via the internet

or 2. found SM on the internet via being into SM and meeting people and then being brought into their online social circles too.

I'm sure there are still SOME sexual minorities in the technologically enabled world who don't go online, but most people probably do to not feel like a freak.

There aren't any good non-derogatory labels about that though. Sometimes I wish there were.

My first contacts were actually found through the back page of the paper, just like H made his 30 years ago. I found out about various websites from people I met. I was completely web illiterate at the time, though that changed quickly. So for me it's kind of a both/neither thing.

I think there is a third group..those that had SM tendancies but didn't understand what they were (and that they weren't complete sickos) until the internet made that information readily available.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Why on earth would I ignore you?

I don't mean to monopolize, sorry.

It's just a weird feeling. Seems to be a break in thread flow. I open a reply to thread page, start, get distracted by 'stuff' here. Return, soldier on, hit reply and end up feeling like I am the mobile phone ringing in the middle of a movie. I didn't see a monopoly, I was being perhaps a tad selfish ( in a good way ) as I enjoy reading the continuum in conversations when people get into a flow. Perhaps I should go punish myself.


Nah

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think there is a third group..those that had SM tendancies but didn't understand what they were (and that they weren't complete sickos) until the internet made that information readily available.

This would be me.

 

[callinectes]

This would be me.

Ditto. If I had access to the information back in the day, and would have been lucky enough to meet a man like EG or JM I would have made vastly different choices. Making up for lost time has been awfully fun though!

 

[intothewoods]

Ha, ha - no idea.

I'll be 50 in March. The world is so different from what it was when I came of age. Sometimes it seems as if people are people, and nothing really essential has actually changed. Other times I feel like a total dinosaur.

Depends on the day and the topic, I guess. A thread on picking a mate from a collarme profile leaves me thinking - jesus christ.

There are many things I could post in response to this, but I think I will hold my tongue.

I do not like older men. I do not like older men. I do not like older men.

 

[BiBunny]

This is a great post, and I agree with all of it.

The only thing I would add is that, while it may be true that there are a lot of "het male PYLs" and "het female pyls" spouting the "off-the-cuff BS" you mention (particularly online), in RL there are a great many who do not. They mostly fly under the radar, though - perhaps because organized clubs with a firmly entrenched culture tend to attract one type more so than the other.

I agree. I have met some morons like that in real life, too, but they seem more prevalent on the 'Net.

Oh, and ITW...I "don't like" older men, either.

 

[Netzach]

For the record if you think that pigheaded asshockery about people who are more fluid is a "het male" or "het female" D/s thing only, you just haven't spent a lot of time in the mainstream of a lesbian leather bar either. Try being a FEMME and NOT A SUBMISSIVE.

Asshockery c'est universelle.

 

[BiBunny]

For the record if you think that pigheaded asshockery about people who are more fluid is a "het male" or "het female" D/s thing only, you just haven't spent a lot of time in the mainstream of a lesbian leather bar either. Try being a FEMME and NOT A SUBMISSIVE.

Asshockery c'est universelle.

Oh, yes, I know. And I HAVEN'T spent time in a lesbian leather bar.

 

[Netzach]

Oh, yes, I know. And I HAVEN'T spent time in a lesbian leather bar.

Mine was limited. I also don't ride a bike, so there wasn't much to discuss. I'm sure not ALL leather bars are like that, but such was women's night at the Eagle when I tried that scene.

 

[DeservingBitch]

For the record if you think that pigheaded asshockery about people who are more fluid is a "het male" or "het female" D/s thing only, you just haven't spent a lot of time in the mainstream of a lesbian leather bar either. Try being a FEMME and NOT A SUBMISSIVE.

Asshockery c'est universelle.

Doesn't have to be leather. Any dyke bar would do.

Maybe I should start packing?

 

[Netzach]

Doesn't have to be leather. Any dyke bar would do.

Maybe I should start packing?

Um there is nothing fucking hotter than a bar dick under your skirt. Just sayin'.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Um there is nothing fucking hotter than a bar dick under your skirt. Just sayin'.

That's it. I'm packing next time I go out.

 

[the captians wench]

Ha, ha - no idea.

I'll be 50 in March. The world is so different from what it was when I came of age. Sometimes it seems as if people are people, and nothing really essential has actually changed. Other times I feel like a total dinosaur.

Depends on the day and the topic, I guess. A thread on picking a mate from a collarme profile leaves me thinking - jesus christ.

Well the other two may not be into it, but I have a special place in my heart for certian dinosaurs.

btw, I'm a march birthday too, and I'll be half your age. *giggles*

 

[Netzach]

I find men pushing 50 to be ideal to fuck, and not ideal to live with. Of course the feeling being mutual, it's all good.

 

[midwestyankee]

I find men pushing 50 to be ideal to fuck, and not ideal to live with. Of course the feeling being mutual, it's all good.

And what of those who are pushing 50 back from the other side?