length of stories and attention span

[oggbashan]

A skilled wordsmith will give you a world in 3000 words. A hack will maybe give you a cardboard cut-out in 10,000.
Gauche

I'd take it even further than Gauche. A skilled writer can grab your attention in the first sentence and write a story in very few words - see Snippetsville. A good poet can give you a totally fresh view in a few lines.

Cardboard cut-outs exist in all lengths of story. Agatha Christie and Georgette Heyer gave people cardboard characters in all their books but good plots and interesting reading.

Og

 

[raphy]

Colly's probably the only person here who's actually read everything I've written in the last 5 years... Old, old friends.

I don't think Gauche and Colly are actually arguing different ends of an argument here - I agree with Gauche - The skill of the writer matters significantly more than the number of words he or she uses - However, I don't think Colly would have an argument with that statement .. I think that Colly was more trying to make the distinction between a quick 1-page stroke story and a more involved effort with plot twists, surprises and true character dynamics.

Those that are just lookin' for a quick wank are much more likely to be satisfied with the short 1-page affair.

That said, the two best things I've ever written are my shortest and longest stories, respectively.

Go figure.

Raph, rambling.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Indeed

I wasn't trying to say that overall length mattered Gauche, I was trying to say that the way you used the words made all the difference. Raphy writes with an economy of words that is almost unbelieveable, but still produces fine stories. I write with great verbosity and still don't achieve what I want often.

-Colly

 

[gauchecritic]

Colly,

Then I misunderstood.

I still stand by what I said. You just gave me the opportunity however misconceived, to say it, for which I thank you.

Gauche

 

[raphy]

Okay Colly, you need to quit stroking my ego..

And Gauche, I'm glad she gave you the opportunity to say it too, since I agree with you

 

[Colleen Thomas]

If not your ego then what substitute would you offer for me to stroke

I'm glad I gave ou the opportunity gauche, you prety much hit the nail on the head

-Colly

 

[Dirty Slut]

So what is a SHORT story???

The truth of the matter is, whether an author is writing a novel, or a short story for others to read it is the duty, nay, it is their responsibility to make the story interesting enough for the reader to want to read the next sentence, the next paragraph, and want to turn the next page.

That having been said, a short story is just that, it's short. How short? Shorter than a novella, but longer than a poem. (To me, any poem over two pages isn't a poem. But that's me.) Style has nothing to do with the length of a story, but how the story is told by that author, and most authors here who have written for any length of time will tell you that most good stories write themselves, regardless the fact that the author had to put pen or pencil to paper, or type them out, and later edit them.

I've written novels, and short stories, and at no time did I confuse the two. And other than word restrictions put upon by editors of paying magazines, and such there is only the use of common sense to be used by authors when submitting either a short story, or a novel, or novella. In fact most authors who strive to write a short story of say 5,000 words find out that when they edit the story, that they'll lose close to 1,000 words in the process of tightening it up. Enough said.

DS

 

[Vincent E]

Ah yes, the ever daunting question of story length. How much is too much? Does size really matter?

I think that there tend to be two types of stories on Lit: strokers and readers. Strokers are, well lets not mince words, fast paced sex stories meant to make the reader masturbate and "get there." Readers on the other hand are less about writing hot sex scenes - although they have there place here as well - and more about telling a story. Readers lend themselves best towards serialization, therefore if you think that the story is too long you can always send in part one on one day and part two on another.

Using MS Word I find that about seven pages of text equals one story screen on Lit, so I stick to that general ratio. If I write something that goes about 28 pages I think it is time to submit. Fortunately for me that is usually the point where I have ended a chapter anyway.

If you are writing a really good one-shot story, don't worry about length. If you can engross a reader he will stick to the story or come back and finish it later. They longest story I have ever seen on Lit was about 13 story screens long. Do the math. Better yet, let MathGirl do the math.

I have read some stroker that I really enjoyed that were three or four screens long, and I did not mind the longer length since the story in question was so good.

As you read and re-read to refine the story you will decide to cut somthing out here and add something there. However, do not be overlong in holding back a story from submission. If you sit on the damn thing too long no one will get to read it, and that is worse than submitting an overlong or overshort piece.

But then again, this is just an opinion.

 

[LadyJane]

I think 5,000 words is a good length, as long as you can put in the scenes you want and have explored everything you feel you need to in the story. I think much longer stories are better chopped into parts. My BDSM historical erotica series At His Pleasure ran in three parts. The first two parts were about two screens, and the third part was three screens (this last part was over 9,000 words). I'm a little daunted when I start a story and see that it's 7 screens long. That's a bit much to read on the monitor all at once. I loved the novel/novella Rolling the Bones by Mad Mike; it was in two parts with multiple screens, but I just went crazy reading so much on a computer screen. I skipped lots of parts because of it. Yeah, you can always go back to it, but it's harder for me to do that.

 

[Invid Writer]

It can be tricky that's for sure. My only story online at the moment (Invid Invasion) is sitting at about 130,000 words right now and climbing by the page every day. But it's divided into chapters that are anywhere from 3 lit pages to 7. It takes me a while to tell my stories so I just tell them as they come.

However, I find that I get VERY few readers that go all the way through. For example, I'll have something like 5000 'reads' and only about 8 votes which indicates to me that maybe only 50-100 of those 5000 people actually made it to the end. Not a very good ratio I suspect if you look at shorter stories. SO if you want votes, keep it short. Otherwise, write it the length you write it. You'll get fans and comments either way.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

What people will read is a question without an answer.
We get terrific records of what they *download* but whether
that download is actually read is anybody's guess.
I will say that on another site with voting, the highest
votes go mostly to interminable serials which never seem to
finish.
I have two stories on my personal webpage which have
pages for the story. The last page gets about half (or
fewer) downloads than the first. Similarly for the single
multi-section story I have on Lit.

 

[Invid Writer]

That's funny cause with the exception of chapter 4 (which had no sex to speak of in it) my downloads have been going steadily up for every new chapter I put out. I guess that's a good sign eh?

 

[PAUL C]

story length

I tend to write long adventure stories but, conscious of the needs of my reader I keep the length of each chapter in the 2,500 - 3,500 word length.

Some of my earlier stories were written in this format on another site and I posted them in one piece as complete stories when I came to Lit. More out of idleness than anything.

Other stories were written for competitions with 15,000 word maximum length.

I think the 2.5k - 3.5k to be a satisfactory length. more than that, break it into chapters.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's not the length so much as it is the entertainment density, how much bang per page. The bang doesn't have to be sexual payoff, but it does have to give you some reason to keep on reading. Expecting a reader to follow your characters through breakfast and lunch so that they can see them get laid after dinner is

I've seen a lot of stories here that are too long. I don't know if I've ever seen a story here that was too short. Once a writer reaches a certain level of competence, there seems to be a tendency to overwrite: to tell us things that are irrelevent or obvious. You see a lot of exposition on what characters are thinking and feeling when these should realy be expressed in the character's actions. One good image is worth five hundred words of exposition.

When we think of writing, we usually think of things to put in. We rarely think of things we shoud take out. Most of the stories I see here are too long.

---dr.M.

 

[oggbashan]

I've seen a lot of stories here that are too long. I don't know if I've ever seen a story here that was too short. Once a writer reaches a certain level of competence, there seems to be a tendency to overwrite: to tell us things that are irrelevent or obvious. You see a lot of exposition on what characters are thinking and feeling when these should really be expressed in the character's actions. One good image is worth five hundred words of exposition.

When we think of writing, we usually think of things to put in. We rarely think of things we shoud take out. Most of the stories I see here are too long.

---dr.M.

One thing is noticeable. As a result of the discussions in the AH and elsewhere, including dr.M's hard work with authors, the standard of stories from those who listen is improving.

Literotica may be about erotica, but there is also much good advice freely given. The advice and comment is like a continuing masterclass. Even apparently stupid questions can generate worthwhile discussions that make us think about our writing.

Og (who is addicted to Literotica)

 

[dr_mabeuse]

For an interesting little exercise is story length, try this: the next time you read a story, make note of the things you think could be ommitted--scenes, dialogue, exposition, description, whatever. Then think about what you would have liked to see added to the story. Now compare the two lists.


---dr.M.

 

[oggbashan]

For an interesting little exercise is story length, try this: the next time you read a story, make note of the things you think could be ommitted--scenes, dialogue, exposition, description, whatever. Then think about what you would have liked to see added to the story. Now compare the two lists.


---dr.M.

That is fairly easy to do to someone else's story but painful on your own work - if you can see your own objectively. Usually I can't.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

That is fairly easy to do to someone else's story but painful on your own work - if you can see your own objectively. Usually I can't.

Og

Oh I know. Believe me, I know!

Whenever we look at a story that has problems, our first instinct is to fix it by writing more. We never think about cutting stuff out.

I think that this is a problem that's probably endemic to all writers. We write because we like to write. It's terribly hard to have to cut out and throw away material we've worked on. That's why we finally have to ask editors to do it for us; we can't bear to do it ourselves. And then when we do cut stuff out , we keep it in a separate pile (at least I do), as if we'll ever use it somewhere else, like it's just too excellent to throw away.

Or look at it this way: it's easier to write a ten pages of mediocre stuff than it is to write one page of good stuff. It also gives us more of a sense of accomplishment. The result is that most of the stories here are too long.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Ogg and Mab., you're both spot/right on about self-editing vs. helping edit another's work. Life is like that too, I seem to help friends in need but when it comes to my own personal dilemmas I need outside aid.

My one 'novel' was a 300 pp. long final draft. A very good editor returned it to me with suggestions that cut it by a third. I feel as emotionally attached to what I write as the next person but I could see why she made the cuts and more importantly how they improved the work. I took all her suggestions painlessly but chose to leave in one simple sentence she would have excised. It was deliberate, i.e., I knew it could go but I wanted to leave it in for me, just a little personal bit like an innocuous snag in a carpet.

So now my 'book' is at 200 pp.; I only need to put it out there for publishing, but that seems more difficult than the whole creation of it. I seem to want to keep it to myself (which is another 'story').

Thanks for your insights,

Perdita

 

[MathGirl]

it's easier to write a ten pages of mediocre stuff than it is to write one page of good stuff.

Dear Dr M,
As much as it pains me to agree with you, I must in this case. You describe my stuff perfectly.
MG
Ps. What would we ever do without the word "stuff?"

 

[Dirty Slut]

Dear Perdita...

So now my 'book' is at 200 pp.; I only need to put it out there for publishing, but that seems more difficult than the whole creation of it. I seem to want to keep it to myself (which is another 'story').

There are several ways that you can get your book published, and self publishing is one of them. At present there are several good On Demand publishers that you can do this with without it costing you an arm and a leg. Booksurge.com comes to mind right off the top of my head. They are affiliated with Amazon.com, but not ruled by them, and that's the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned, as Booksurge is more for the author, and Amazon is more for themselves.

With Booksurge.com the author retains all rights to their work allowing them to persue agents with a book in hand. And all it takes to severe the book from their domain is a letter if you, or your agent find a publisher who wants to buy it.

DS

 

[Guest]

Re: Dear Perdita...

Dear D. Slut,

Thank you for your kind and generous advice. My problem is not being able to let go. If published I will feel a loss (my problemo of course).

not ungrateful, Perdita

 

[Lovepotion69]

If we're talking Lit stories and attention span....

well, I personally find 2-3 pages good. I've read a few that were up to five Lit pages, but those I read offline. Actually, most of the time I just copy the story and paste it into Word. That way I can read when I want ( and my folks won't kill me when seeing the internet bill). Still, 2-3 pages feels the best for me. When I see a story that's five and up, I might look at it, but unless is damn good the first page, then *back button*.