Lessons on Poetic Civility For the Uncreative Mind

[Blarneystoned]

Aerosol Prozac I always said

Crop dust it over a city and I bet the crime rate would drop in half.
Angeline I thought your remarks were funny...I just find that when someone begins with a critical comment on a poem they destroy the writers intent. If help is wanted that is one thing...but validation usually comes just in the writing.

The world is full of experts and they are usually wrong. Every day I cover doctors mistakes up, generally because they fail to mandate to their titles as educators. Too often they jump to conclusions with 5 minute assesments and excuse themselves as being too busy. So I try not to be critical unless someone initiates it. Then we dance until one gives up or an agreement is reached...haha..that is how the world works.

In this case perhaps we are all perhaps too critical. Yet I feel that perhaps that is the reason these threads are stuck in the douldrums...if everyone is an expert..then no body posts...plain and simple. In my lifetime I have crawled through tougher jungles than poetry critics, so it really doesnt phase me. Art critics are nothing compared to a bi polar or PCP addict trying to make a break for the window or emergency exit..haha

Blarneystoned

 

[TheDR4KE]

Re: Re: Lessons on Poetic Civility For the Uncreative Mind

Sticking my head in quickly before I wander off again.... (No Blarney, I'm hardly worried by your venting. Bemused would be a better word. As the others said, keep at it with your self-therapy here. No need for patients to suffer any more than they already do.)

Rule Haiku

I'm thinking you are doing the boy too much credit with haiku. Maybe a limerick is more apt?

There was a young nurse from ER.
Whose posts show that he's quite bitter.
'Cause his job's not like TV?
Or is it doctoral envy?
But at least in his mind he's a star.



Quack,

the D





.

 

[daughter]

So why ain't this place hoppin?

Angeline--

Writing a good critique is a lot of work. For all the belly aching about insensitivity I wonder how many poets have ever participated in a critique forum with professional, serious writers or taken a lit class for that matter.

I have done both. I have experience cut-throat criticsm that was intentionally flung to wound. I don't see that happening here and even those who didn't care for UP that no one wants to call by name, he did something more often than most can claim: he took the time to actually write a thorough commentary. He look at intent and device. He never questioned someone's feelings or belittled someone's character. He talked about words on the page.

We don't have to like or accept feedback. However, if you post it publicly don't whine and dictate that folks respond in the manner you prefer. The beauty of the net is that without straining yourself you can ignore and delete.

Our friends and family will praise and stroke us till we're raw. If you're going to call yourself a poet and post publicly, expect your peers to comment.

UP left and I'm not interested in investing more energy defending than I spend on honestly responding to work, so some of us have done as desired: we say nothing.

HMMMM. How exciting, engaging and productive is silence or empty praises?

This place doesn't strike me as a thriving forum and it's partly because folks want more than they're willing to give. Even if you praise someone, it takes more effort to explain why. "That's great" measures the same as "That sucks". Neither provides insight a poet can use for his next effort.

And not every comment about a problem a reader has with a work is meant to harm. I think it's more about respect. You respected the writer enough to be honest.

I dont' expect a poet to accept every comment I offer. My hope is that I have given him something to consider. It's his choice to accept or reject and neither action is a reflection of who I am as a person.


Wicked Eve writes better because she chose to listen and learn. She doesn't take every comment offered and use it. In fact, we've had more than a few squabbles about suggestions. But it's always about the writing.

I admire and enjoy Eve's work. She doesn't take herself to seriously, but she seriously considers what she writes.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Angeline]

Daughter, you and I have more in common than you may realize or perhaps want to see. My academic background is in literature and I have been writing since childhood. I have attended workshps for writers--poets in particular--and am trained in traditional form. I believe that we never stop learning; learning is growth to me and growth is life. I want to learn and grow as both a person and a writer until I drop. That is my personal philosophy.

I have been subjected to the same types of criticism you describe--certainly much worse than anything I've ever seen here. And frankly, I share your concern about praise that serves no purpose. It does not help me--flattering though it is--to simply hear "I love your poem. Good job." I want to know that a specific image doesn't get it or is redundent or trivial or whatever it is. If I have learned nothing else from being an editor, I know that specificity is what works. I also know that kindness is a good thing--at least in my book it is--and i am careful to deliver news I think has the potential to hurt someone as kindly as possible. I have seen adjectives used by some here in the course of a critique that are unecessarily hurtful. What is the point of that?

Objectivity is all that is needed--not negativity. And I have yet to see a poem here where I can find absolutely nothing positive to say. It is my personal philosophy to offer some encouragement--however little--when the news is mostly you did less than good.

If we were not human, maybe we could all readily accept that these critiques are wholly objective, but of course we are human and humans can be fragile things.

I also think that while we all need to grow, it is clear that we feel differently here about what does and doesn't constitue "poetry." That diversity doesn't mean that we should see every poem as a "good" one, but it does mean--at least to me--that there's room for many styles, many approaches. Traditional form is important to know, but keeping one's mind open is too.

You have given me excellent specific feedback in the past and, while I have not always agreed with you, I have always appreciated you sincerity. I think you are passionate about your writing as I am about mine. There is room for you and me and so many others here. I hope we all continue to learn together.

I wish you peace and a muse that continues to lead you to create wonderful poetry.

Angeline

 

[daughter]

Angeline

I was not discounting anything you stated or your experience. Apparently I failed to make that clear. Not all my points were directed to your comments specifically. I was speaking to those who are less experienced with dialogue about writing as a craft.

You mention style. I agree again. Does it make sense that we also consider the style of the critic? For example, in my mind, when I comment on a work, I'm not making any personal judgement about the poet, and I tend not to put a whole lot of thought to reassuring the poet because in my mind, we're talking about a writing exercise not his life. I do not assume a poet is sharing some immediate, single real life experience.

Does that make me mean or insensitive? I have been guilty of being too frank, but if we are going to argue for sensitivity and diversity, let that attitude go in both directions.

Eve and I are friends. I'll kick butt for her. However, if she posts a poem that has trouble spots, I don't hold her hand and tell her she's great, we're friends, but... I simply say, "This is cool, but this is buggin' me." We have disagreed strongly about points in a poem and later yuck it up about our kids and mates.

We keep harping on the responsibilty of the critic. Who's stating the responsibility of the poet? It is not emotionally healthy to wear your feelings on your sleeve and to consistently complain that you are being attacked.

Angeline, I trust that with your experience you will attest to the importance and necessity for emotional distance with our work. If a writer is so emotionally caught up a piece of writing that he cannot accept any comment that is not glowing praise, then it is not wise to share it publicly with people who only know what you have written. Not everyone has the same emotional levels.

If you tell me something I've written can be improved that does not translate as a personal rejection for me. Lastly, we have different learning styles. My suggestion is to hook up with someone who makes sense to you and that you respect. Hear the others out, but consider the value of the comment and source for you.

Critiques are for us to gather options and different perspectives. Nowhere is it written that they are perfect nor that we have to swallow them whole as if they were poetic gospel that we must abide by.

I hope I have cleared things up.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Angeline]

A Few More Thoughts

Hi Again Daughter!

In responding to your precious post, I simply wanted to explain the way I see things. I tend to put a personal narrative spin on my writing; I think that is refelcted in my poems as well as my prose. I don't have any special agenda in doing it and am certainly not offended by your comments--it's really just my writing style.

You are absolutely right: a critique of a poem is simply that and not a comment on an individual. Objectively we all know that. Maybe the tenor of my response comes from having worked as an editor with (literally) hundreds of writers over the years and having seen over and over that people take criticism meant objectively to heart. They shouldn't--no doubt about that, but I think many of them do.

I would never advocate being less than frank. However, frank can sometimes hurt, whether that is the intention or not. I realize it's a viable argument that people just need to accept that it isn't intended that way and buck up, especially if one puts work out in a public forum. For me though, the way I critque is a choice that reflects my experience and belief. It may not be someone else's, but it is mine. Of course, and this dovetails with your earlier point, the more specific one is when critiquing, the easier it is to be frank and objective.

When my work is critiqued, I hope the person doing so will try to give me the few extra moments of their time it takes to find the kindest way to say something negative, as I do when I critique someone's writing. If they do, I am most appreciative. If they don't, I accept it and move on. What's more important is to try to glean from it what I can use and keep writing.

And now back to my infinitely less interesting real job!

Peace to You!

Angeline

 

[daughter]

saying same things

Angeline--

I think we're trying to hard to be civil and agree. LOL

Seriously, I believe in giving folks the benefit of doubt and not sweating the small stuff.

We have different styles but the same intention. I'm really not a cold fish.

Stop by Lotus. All poems are subject to critique and I think some folks would be surprised at how civil, friendly and relaxed we are. Our community is quite mixed and respectful.

We don't thinly veil critique for bashing. We're really interested in supporting and encouraging each other's growth.

Diversity, hmmmm. You might not want to ask me about that. I'm quite passionate about the subject. I'm an ardent advocate. I walk the talk.

Please stop by.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Angeline]

Me too!

Grins at daughter. Me too. Be diverse or be extinct. Puttin that on a bumper sticker.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: saying same things

Stop by Lotus. All poems are subject to critique and I think some folks would be surprised at how civil, friendly and relaxed we are. Our community is quite mixed and respectful.

We don't thinly veil critique for bashing. We're really interested in supporting and encouraging each other's growth.

Lotus is poetry! Great group of people. It's a relaxing place to take your shoes off, curl up on the sofa, and talk poetry with friends.

 

[Blarneystoned]

haha...from the depths of Chaos breeds new life

haha...you didnt sound bemused earlier drake..haha...I just thought this place needed some heat..haha

It looks like there is some free flowing going on....keep it up Angeline and daughter...My question is "Who's your daddy !" ..haha..keep it real Im getting some sleep..two more days or crackheads..then a whole half a day off...whoo hoo

Blarney out

 

[Angeline]

Night Blarney

Sweet dreams chaos guy!

 

[RisiaSkye]

Blarney has certainly chosen an apt name for himself.

 

[Blarneystoned]

Thanks Risia..haha..

I fashioned it after the fool in King Lear...no body suspects a pot smoking bullshitter...haha...It is the wise who are too quick to jump to conclusions and see the wisdom in the words of a fool. In their pomp and tenacity they are slain like the Romans by the Visigoths. Long Live King Blarney..haha

Such great irony there is in life...haha...

Angeline thanks ..you sleep well too...It is good to see things happening and shaking...haha....it's the Jerry Springer..Emenim..effect

Laugh all the way to the bank..that is what I always say

Blarneystoned

 

[Blarneystoned]

Risia liked the poem

Poetry is cathartic is it not..well done Risia


And now kids a bed time story by Uncle Blarney...I wrote this one for a lesbian friend who needed a real man...if only for a while..she is a great accountant..Peace out

Fallen Monarch

Who took the wind from your sails
Over what storm tossed seas have you prevailed
My Queen, My Queen, what cards has fate dealt
What cold winds, has your tender heart felt

The tears in your eyes are glistening ice
Like precious diamonds crushed in a vice
I can feel your sadness, My Queen
Your words are soft, your dreams serene

But the tide, princess is ever changing
Light and darkness rearranging
My Queen, Summer is at an end
But a gentler season is sure to begin

I see your Kingdom, rise once more
I see your Knight, O Queen, riding from a far
I long to see your smiling face
Your laughing eyes, your warm embrace

To see you eyes glisten bright
Your hair shining in the fall moonlight
Like a gentle wind your body sways
Through colored leaves on Autumn days

I see your throne shine soft and sweet
I place my sword upon your feet
Your life, my Queen I will defend
With love and honor to the end

And slowly now, as summer ends
The frost will come and slowly mend
The fleeting sorrows and defeats
For life, my dear is bitter- sweet

This final wish is for my Queen
May the words I've spoken in this dream
Soften your heart and lighten your soul
May they give you hope and shine like precious gold

 

[Angeline]

Duh!

Thank you Eve, for reminding me that Lotus is a site and not a person's name. I knew that--eventually. (Duh).

Daughter, I ain't half as prissy as I come off sounding sometimes! Thank you for the invite; I look forward to checking out the community there. My nick there will be Prezgirl (for my beloved Lester Young, late Prez of the tenor sax and a true poet if ever there was one), so if she says hi, you'll know it's me.

 

[Blarneystoned]

Prissy Poetic Saxaphone Player ??

Now this I have got to see..haha..hum a few bars for us Angeline...haha


Tequilla....................tequilla.....................(fill in the musical part, I will cover the lyrics)......................TEQUILLA !




haha...I need to go to bed ..haha


Blarney out

 

[daughter]

Look forward to having you

Angeline--

I hear you. I'm only half the snob folks credit me to be. LOL

We look forward to having you. Thanks for giving me your user name. I need to know that to approve your membership.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Angeline]

Tequila????

Blarney, you cut me to the quick. The Prez (Lester) is soooo much better than that. He was the original tenor sax man in the 1938 Count Basie band and a brilliant jazz innovator who went on to a distinguished but tragic solo career. His early work with Billie Holiday is wonderful, too. Prez greatly influenced Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Mingus, Coltrane, Getz and on and on. Also a true original in his language and lifestyle--it it weren't for him, Ginsburg and the other beat poets wouldn't have had half their vocabulary!

Um, I like him. Can you tell?

 

[RisiaSkye]

Blarney, thanks for the compliment, and the notes on your name. Here's to you keeping thing shaken up, from one Eminem fan to another:

 

[Blarneystoned]

Of count Bassie and Eminem...haha

What a combo that is eh ?

Risia..Angeline..glad you all are staying musical....okay somebody pour the coffee..I just finished 40 hours in three days...I m really beginning to dislike heroine junkies though...haha...if you are going to overdose dammit....do it good..dont fall down and get pissed off at me for bringing you back to life and ruining your buzz !!

Okay now that that is over with..haha..Angeline..cue Bassie...Risia...lets get a rap going...haha..you start..Im too tired to move..haha

Blarney