MAN RAY'S There's thrills-n-chills-n-lots of spills in Rainbow Land
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Case closed! No more need for voting threads.
Never
Come What May
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Man Ray, I went through a list of your poems and noticed I'd one I'd voted low on: Tickle Spot.
Oh, and I found it on the Poetry Review thread, not the top one hundred list.
Oh, and I found it on the Poetry Review thread, not the top one hundred list.
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Tzara
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Let's look at this issue analytically, shall we?
The problem with poem ratings and the Reader Voting Top List (which is the one I think we're talking about here) is that poems in general get very few votes, which means that a single vote can have what appears to be a disproportionate effect on the rating. (Of course, since the rating is the average of the votes made on a poem—at first I was going to say "mean", which is the mathematical term, but that seemed to confuse the issue—the effect of a single vote by definition is exactly proportionate.)
Right now as I write this, there are two poems tied for the top position on the list. (Actually, the list ranks them 1 and 2 by earlier submission date.) Each has a rating of 4.92, based on twelve total votes. What does it take to drop these completely off the list?
Well, the bottom poem has a rating of 4.80 (not much different) with ten total votes. The math is pretty simple. If you give either of these poems a 3 vote, they will drop in rating to 4.77, which will likely drop them off the list (it depends on what is below the bottom).
Now I hope we all agree that a 3 vote isn't spiteful or mean, but merely someone's differing judgment about the quality of a poem. But let's say we don't. How about a different scenario, then. Let's say two people vote on these poems and each rates the poem a 4. Pretty good vote, actually. All of the poems on the Top List have at least one four vote or lower. What does that do?
Two 4 votes drop the rating to 4.79 and off the Top List. Would these be "bad" votes, perpetrated by a malicious and envious cabal of snotty people? No, of course not. They are good votes, by people who liked the poem. They just didn't like it as much as some other people.
Are there people who drop 1-bombs on poems? Of course there are. We've all had that experience, assuming we've turned voting on at all. But having something drop off the Top List doesn't mean that's what happened.
The problem with poem ratings and the Reader Voting Top List (which is the one I think we're talking about here) is that poems in general get very few votes, which means that a single vote can have what appears to be a disproportionate effect on the rating. (Of course, since the rating is the average of the votes made on a poem—at first I was going to say "mean", which is the mathematical term, but that seemed to confuse the issue—the effect of a single vote by definition is exactly proportionate.)
Right now as I write this, there are two poems tied for the top position on the list. (Actually, the list ranks them 1 and 2 by earlier submission date.) Each has a rating of 4.92, based on twelve total votes. What does it take to drop these completely off the list?
Well, the bottom poem has a rating of 4.80 (not much different) with ten total votes. The math is pretty simple. If you give either of these poems a 3 vote, they will drop in rating to 4.77, which will likely drop them off the list (it depends on what is below the bottom).
Now I hope we all agree that a 3 vote isn't spiteful or mean, but merely someone's differing judgment about the quality of a poem. But let's say we don't. How about a different scenario, then. Let's say two people vote on these poems and each rates the poem a 4. Pretty good vote, actually. All of the poems on the Top List have at least one four vote or lower. What does that do?
Two 4 votes drop the rating to 4.79 and off the Top List. Would these be "bad" votes, perpetrated by a malicious and envious cabal of snotty people? No, of course not. They are good votes, by people who liked the poem. They just didn't like it as much as some other people.
Are there people who drop 1-bombs on poems? Of course there are. We've all had that experience, assuming we've turned voting on at all. But having something drop off the Top List doesn't mean that's what happened.
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Tzara
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OK. Now let's look at the second part of the problem. What about "low votes"?
Let me first state a prejudice. This may turn some or all of you off right here, but I want to be honest. The term "low vote" is meaningless, except in context. Come on, people. If some new "poet" shows up who writes
If you truly believe that we should "encourage" new poets, regardless of the quality of their writing, then we have such divergent views of how to respond to work presented here that we have nothing to even begin a conversation about.
OK? Still reading? Fine—then at least we agree about something. Let's look at 1-bombs.
That they occur, we all acknowledge. What they mean, and "who" is perpetrating them, we seem to disagree about. So let's ask why someone might do it.
Here let me anticipate a potential distracting criticism on my comments. I do, in fact, have some "credentials" to talk about motivation and psychology. I hold a BS (yes, very funny) degree summa cum laude in Psychology. I did approximately two and a half year's worth of work towards a PhD in learning and motivation. So I have some qualification to talk about motivation. In my opinion, all y'all do too.
So. Why would someone 1-bomb a poem?
I think there are two obvious motivations:
I don't think the ongoing arguments here have been about the former—the trolls. That is unless some think that some of the regular contributors here are running around dropping "low votes" on any and all poems by certain people. Perhaps some of you believe that. Again, I would say that I have no response to make to that other than I think that is nonsense.
Which means the latter reason is what the concern is about. Certainly that is a possibility. I could have a poem that is rated high on the Top List get dropped off because of a 1-bomb so that someone else's poem, one almost rated high enough to make it, gets on the list. That's possible.
I would suggest though, that that is not likely to be anyone among those who seem to be routinely mentioned as being the cause of the low votes. And that includes MNS, however irritating he may be. To use him (her? it?) as an example, I don't think I have ever seen that he/she/it cares at all about the Top List. So voting a poem low simply to get it off the list doesn't make any sense as motivation. I mean, come on. Does it?
I know many poets here are concerned about their rankings, the 'H's, the 'E's, and such. I am sorry that you feel manipulated. I very much doubt, however, that you all are being struck down by some cranky "Intellectual Elite" who wants to hammer your poems because they don't think they're up to snuff. I think "they" just ignore you.
Just my opinion. I do have voting on, by the way, so feel free to go 1-bomb me. I find that kind of charming.
In closing, let me thank Man Ray for raising the issue once again and making me think it through. I have found that useful, even if none of the rest of you do.
And, since I'm off to sunnier climes this weekend, let me wish a Happy Thanksgiving to our Northerners. Odd time for the holiday, but I know you all revel in not being American. Lucky you.
'Night all.
Let me first state a prejudice. This may turn some or all of you off right here, but I want to be honest. The term "low vote" is meaningless, except in context. Come on, people. If some new "poet" shows up who writes
I want to fuck you.
I want to fuck you.
I want to fuck you.
Yeah.
is it by definition a low vote or a "troll" vote to, assuming you got far enough to register an opinion at all, give that a 2, let alone a 1?I want to fuck you.
I want to fuck you.
Yeah.
If you truly believe that we should "encourage" new poets, regardless of the quality of their writing, then we have such divergent views of how to respond to work presented here that we have nothing to even begin a conversation about.
OK? Still reading? Fine—then at least we agree about something. Let's look at 1-bombs.
That they occur, we all acknowledge. What they mean, and "who" is perpetrating them, we seem to disagree about. So let's ask why someone might do it.
Here let me anticipate a potential distracting criticism on my comments. I do, in fact, have some "credentials" to talk about motivation and psychology. I hold a BS (yes, very funny) degree summa cum laude in Psychology. I did approximately two and a half year's worth of work towards a PhD in learning and motivation. So I have some qualification to talk about motivation. In my opinion, all y'all do too.
So. Why would someone 1-bomb a poem?
I think there are two obvious motivations:
- The person is simply trying to antagonize the poet. They're an asshole, in other words, or, if I have the lingo down appropriately, a "troll". One who votes a poem down merely out of spite.
- Someone who is attempting to manipulate the list by voting a poem down. As I showed in my previous post, this is actually pretty easy to do, given that the sample size on which the average poem score is based is really very small.
I don't think the ongoing arguments here have been about the former—the trolls. That is unless some think that some of the regular contributors here are running around dropping "low votes" on any and all poems by certain people. Perhaps some of you believe that. Again, I would say that I have no response to make to that other than I think that is nonsense.
Which means the latter reason is what the concern is about. Certainly that is a possibility. I could have a poem that is rated high on the Top List get dropped off because of a 1-bomb so that someone else's poem, one almost rated high enough to make it, gets on the list. That's possible.
I would suggest though, that that is not likely to be anyone among those who seem to be routinely mentioned as being the cause of the low votes. And that includes MNS, however irritating he may be. To use him (her? it?) as an example, I don't think I have ever seen that he/she/it cares at all about the Top List. So voting a poem low simply to get it off the list doesn't make any sense as motivation. I mean, come on. Does it?
I know many poets here are concerned about their rankings, the 'H's, the 'E's, and such. I am sorry that you feel manipulated. I very much doubt, however, that you all are being struck down by some cranky "Intellectual Elite" who wants to hammer your poems because they don't think they're up to snuff. I think "they" just ignore you.
Just my opinion. I do have voting on, by the way, so feel free to go 1-bomb me. I find that kind of charming.
In closing, let me thank Man Ray for raising the issue once again and making me think it through. I have found that useful, even if none of the rest of you do.
And, since I'm off to sunnier climes this weekend, let me wish a Happy Thanksgiving to our Northerners. Odd time for the holiday, but I know you all revel in not being American. Lucky you.
'Night all.
GuiltyPleasure
AWTSS
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I've noticed that when Lauren replies to comments left for her the themometer is at 50% and that Man Ray's is at 100% and am wondering if those thermometers are just for display purposes or if they impact the votes. Do they have any responsibility in the down-slide of poems on the "most popular" list?
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