Master in public?

[Little_Kitten]

Not in my eyes....they don't do anything I don't do in my relationship or in public, I just am lucky enough to include more privately but they don't have to be included or made to be in a position to explain my sexual and relationship choices to their children. Add to that their relationship choice is sanctioned by the community as a whole as normal/acceptable/ safe/understood. I still don't understand why speaking in public and calling your Dominant Sir or Master need be heard by anyone else unless you want it to be, and why would you? I can do it without anyone else hearing, especially in crowded places like shops, malls, restaurants, bars, and even on public transport but when it comes down to it there is rarely an unavoidable reason you need to address anyone by a title in public if you are speaking to each other...it is not a life and death situation. Even when we are with people who know and are accepting of our relationship, my use of Master or Amo is never spoken loudly enough for them to hear it, but then I speak softly no matter what I am saying or to whom so I have that advantage. Basically if you feel it is necessary and is going to make you feel you are proving how submissive you are, then be prepared to live with the consequences.

As for the mentioning you already had someone in your intro thread...I have much to do so don't memorise everyone's personal lives when they first post and go on the post they make in a thread which in this one you referred to possible future BDSM relationships and wanting to be prepared. No biggee.

Catalina

Well yea, no biggie
Oh and to add shortly: It's not that I want everyone to hear that I call him Master and whatnot, I think id even lower my voice in public. We both find calling him Master fulfilling and I wanna do it as often as possible, as far as risks allow it.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

IMO, its about what you both feel comfortable.

But as I htink it was Betticus said above, don't underestimate the ability of those around you ti be assholes... (or something to that effect.)

 

[Daddyslilpet]

In this case it's not your relationship that is the problem, it is the vast capacity of our fellow human beings to be complete assholes.

The worst I've gotten from people are glares and muttered comments when a girl would call me daddy but that only happened two or three times.

This is so very true, even when you don't "advertise" by calling your Dom by their title. I had a case where a neighbor found out about our relationship and the told her husband about it. He then proceeded to question me in front of his teenage children about how Daddy and I like to "spank each others asses". To which I calmly replied "nope, that's not the way it is. I'd never dream of trying to spank him." Then glared at his wife.

So yes, people who don't understand can be total assholes about it all and make totally inappropriate comments at inappropriate times. Those teens go to school with my oldest boy. Get the picture.

 

[RJMasters]

I guess I can't really grok passing my perversions off as "Biblical" or something so that they feel more justified. QUOTE]

Since when is submission a perversion?

Since when does it need justifying?

Since when are the principles of devotion or acknowledging another's authority considered to be evil, wrong or perverse?

And if not evil, wrong or perverse then why can they not parallel certain principles?

I know in D/s relationships or any kind of relationship being honest is key. the bible also teaches "do not lie"? Are you saying that these princples are not the same? Some consider the bible to be a compilation of books which teach good principles in which one can live their life by. It doesn't mean they believe everything thing it says. My point is simply that the reference was not meant to be some justification of any kind. it

1. It was a story that a "man" was telling about a woman who lived 5000 years before he wrote that story

2. The story consisted of saying that in those days women had a beauty about them that came from a gentle or quiet spirit.

3. That she called her husband "Master" and was not afraid to do so.


The women I see in today's society that most closely resembles or displays these "kind" of qualities and beauty that stem from a gentle and quiet spirit are submissive type women.

I happen to love women who have these qualities about them and make no apology for it. I happen to see submission as a from of strength of character. In many ways I see submission as a sacred thing in its own way.

That in no way means that I look upon women who are dominant in nature as "ugly". Women who are dominant possess a beauty of their own which I can respect and even admire, but it does not attract me in the same way.

I'm not trying to wrap everything up in some santimonious wrapper, I just don't think that everything D/s or even BDSM related has to be wrapped up in a perverse perspective either for it to be true or for it to be an enjoyable part of a relationship between two people.

 

[FurryFury]

I have no desire to bring out this sort of thing in public.

Just like the dog collar thing talked about on another thread recently, if you want to deal with the reaction, great. It doesn't motivate me at all to brook that kind of trouble.

Of course my life doesn't provide that kind of freedom anyway. I'm also not one who enjoys arguing or being the center of attention in most cases.

Fury

 

[Toa_lin]

you've gotten alot of good input here, allow me to add my two cents.

Me and my pyl are open about our relationship in public. She often calls me Master, and I often call her my pet or slave. For us they've become terms of endearment much like "hun" "baby" "cupcake" etc. have for others. We also talked alot about if she would wear a collar in public, then it lead to cuffs as well, and a couple weeks ago, we added the leash as well.

To us, they're sorta like a wedding ring, except not QUITE that legally powerfull But they represent I "own" her, and she has no desire to be owned by anyone else. In turn, I will stand-up to anyone who tries to talk down to her, to tell her she's "debacing herself in the eyes of our lord" for instance. And normally, the people shut up and walk away, I have a glare that is menacing enough most don't want to risk it. And as far as legality goes, it helps to have friends who are cops and even the DA... It lets you find all the loop-holes

In closing, not only do we like her wearing them because it shows our love for each-other in our way, we've also discovered it's a big turn-on for both of us to lead her by the leash in private or public. And who can say it's bad to have a bit of "fun" afterwards?

 

[catalina_francisco]

you've gotten alot of good input here, allow me to add my two cents.

Me and my pyl are open about our relationship in public. She often calls me Master, and I often call her my pet or slave. For us they've become terms of endearment much like "hun" "baby" "cupcake" etc. have for others. We also talked alot about if she would wear a collar in public, tehn it lead to cuffs as well, and a couple weeks ago, we added the leash as well.

To us, they're sorta like a wedding ring, except not QUITE that legally powerfull But they represent I "own" her, and she has no desire to be owned by anyone else. In turn, I will stand-up to anyone who tries to talk down to her, to tell her she's "debacing herself in the eyes of our lord" for instance. And normally, the people shut up and walk away, I have a glare that is menacing enough most don't want to risk it.

IN closing, not only do we like her wearing tehm because it shows our love for each-other in our way, we've also discovered it's a big turn-on for both of us to lead her by the leash in private or public. And who can say it's bad to ahve a bit of fun

See I see this as confrontational with the intent to at least raise eyebrows, more so than a way of life. You know it is going to get a reaction in mainstream society and yet you keep adding more and more items to draw that attention to yourselves, and then become confrontational with anyone who reacts to it....that to me is going out to create a scene more so than living a lifestyle because that is who you are. As you say, it is a big turn on....IOW you are getting off on the reactions of others, not authentically living as M/s as a lifestyle choice....basically it has nothing to do with if you are M/s but moreso if it gets you the attention you need to survive.

We actually get off on being M/s too, but that factor does not rely on going out in public to shock and stand up to people who just want to go about their daily life without having to be confrointed with your attention seeking behaviour. May sound harsh, but it is evident in your words and the mistake you make is in thinking if you are having fun that is all that matters...most who are serious about the lifestyle and live it daily on that basis hold the rights of others as equal to their own and do not include others in their activities without consent or with the intent to upset or disrupt. For us it does not matter if anyone else knows, what matters is we know and we live it without the need to push our choices and ways in the face of other people including children.

Catalina

 

[Toa_lin]

See I see this as confrontational with the intent to at least raise eyebrows, more so than a way of life. You know it is going to get a reaction in mainstream society and yet you keep adding more and more items to draw that attention to yourselves, and then become confrontational with anyone who reacts to it....that to me is going out to create a scene more so than living a lifestyle because that is who you are. As you say, it is a big turn on....IOW you are getting off on the reactions of others, not authentically living as M/s as a lifestyle choice....basically it has nothing to do with if you are M/s but moreso if it gets you the attention you need to survive.

We actually get off on being M/s too, but that factor does not rely on going out in public to shock and stand up to people who just want to go about their daily life without having to be confrointed with your attention seeking behaviour. May sound harsh, but it is evident in your words and the mistake you make is in thinking if you are having fun that is all that matters...most who are serious about the lifestyle and live it daily on that basis hold the rights of others as equal to their own and do not include others in their activities without consent or with the intent to upset or disrupt. For us it does not matter if anyone else knows, what matters is we know and we live it without the need to push our choices and ways in the face of other people including children.

Catalina

I am sorry if you took as meaning it had to be public, tis a big turn-on anywhere. And we aren't out to advertise it, but the way I see it is that if people are going to make-out in public and expect others to be fine with it. Then they can accept that we are a PYl/pyl and not going to try adn hide it. I'm sorry if this is differnt from how you view things, adn I mean no offense if this post seems a bti agressive, but I've ALWAYS been blunt about anything. I don't try to cover anything up cus that jsut feels like lieing. And I confront those peopel cus they confronted my pyl first, adn i'm gogin to be protective, they can say what-eva the fuck they want abotu me, adn I won't give it a second thought.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am sorry if you took as meaning it had to be public, tis a big turn-on anywhere. And we aren't out to advertise it, but the way I see it is that if people are going to make-out in public and expect others to be fine with it. Then they can accept that we are a PYl/pyl and not going to try adn hide it. I'm sorry if this is differnt from how you view things, adn I mean no offense if this post seems a bti agressive, but I've ALWAYS been blunt about anything. I don't try to cover anything up cus that jsut feels like lieing. And I confront those peopel cus they confronted my pyl first, adn i'm gogin to be protective, they can say what-eva the fuck they want abotu me, adn I won't give it a second thought.

Sheesh, the reason they confront you is because you go out to make sure you are noticed and confronted so you have a reason to become aggressive. Sorry, that is not D/s to me, it is abusive agression and a need to be the centre of attention. As to it having to be public and you not being out to advertise....I think your words are evidence enough you want to make it public and you want to be noticed and you want to be confronted so you have an outlet for your self righteous aggression. Dare I say you need to grow up and look at what D/s is about before trying to tell the public...but then I doubt you try to educate them at all, just threaten them with your 'look' and words.

Catalina

 

[Daddyslilpet]

I am sorry if you took as meaning it had to be public, tis a big turn-on anywhere. And we aren't out to advertise it, but the way I see it is that if people are going to make-out in public and expect others to be fine with it. Then they can accept that we are a PYl/pyl and not going to try adn hide it. I'm sorry if this is differnt from how you view things, adn I mean no offense if this post seems a bti agressive, but I've ALWAYS been blunt about anything. I don't try to cover anything up cus that jsut feels like lieing. And I confront those peopel cus they confronted my pyl first, adn i'm gogin to be protective, they can say what-eva the fuck they want abotu me, adn I won't give it a second thought.

Well to be honest with you, I'm no more fine with having to watch a vanilla couple make out in public than I am with having any other type of couple shove their lifestyle down my throat. I never consented to be in any of their relationships and it ticks me off to be forced to watch it. This does not include hand holding, or walking arm-in-arm for any couple, and I can even over look a quick hello or goodbye hug and kiss at an airport (since I've done it myself).

The issue is consent. Yes you and she have agreed on everything, but there's no possible way that you could get an agreement from everyone you'd ever run across to agree to be included in your relationship in this way. That is why people react the way they do. Having to defend her honor all the time has got to be tiring, why not just leave the leash at home? Most people are used to seeing collars by now because of the whole Goth thing so that's not a big deal anymore. Sometimes compromise doesn't hurt, it helps. Just a thought.

 

[callinectes]

Toa Lin, I'm curious about what your definition of public is. Do you mean you and your pyl parade around the mall and grocery store with cuffs and leash?? Or, by public do you mean a nightclub that may be friendly to that sort of display? I would find it no more acceptable for two people to make out in the mall than I would your displays of your D/s relationship.

 

[Toa_lin]

Toa Lin, I'm curious about what your definition of public is. Do you mean you and your pyl parade around the mall and grocery store with cuffs and leash?? Or, by public do you mean a nightclub that may be friendly to that sort of display? I would find it no more acceptable for two people to make out in the mall than I would your displays of your D/s relationship.

night-club situation. the mall we even leave the cuffs home as well.

And as far as how you guys react. Sorry if you do not feel how I lvie my life as what you deem "acceptable." But that's just it, it is MY life, and my entire life I've lived amongst people who did not really accept me anyways. I'm an athiest who grew up amongst some of the most intolerant catholics in teh world. And after trying to hide my views from them, I decided I didn't like pretending to be something I'm not. So I stopped pretending it, and it lead to admitting the rest of myself.

I used to think this forum was more open-minded and willign to accept what-others do as their own way of self-expression. But if I'm wrong, i will gladly leave and let you all be with your own beliefs rather then argue over it.

 

[Hisbabydoll26]

Wow

Seems like a lot of discussion for what seemed to be a simple question. Guess it wasn't so simple. I also have to say I'm hesitant to even write for a slight fear of someone taking something wrong and getting upset.

This made me think of older couples I have seen with say their grandchildren or even kids. The kind of couples that call eachother ma and pa or mommy and daddy. They have lost all ways of addressing the other except in that way. Not sure I'm making sense here. I guess what I mean is even when not around the kids you will hear them call eachother those names. I know it's different but what does it matter what you call someone?

I think unless you are yelling it out or using a tone that is mm sexual while grinding up against his leg or something. I guess it shouldn't matter. I agree a Sir would be more acceptable than perhaps Master but even using that I would wonder if they (other people) wouldn't think you were kidding or being sarcastic. The mainstream I would guess wouldn't have the same base knowledge as people here as far as what that title would hold in terms of importance or how it would relate to anything in terms of a lifestyle.

It was funny when lil rose mentioned the whole Daddy thing. I worry sometimes when I am with my real father, just the two of us that someone thinks we are a couple. I guess it stikes me when we have to shop for a gift for my mom and of course I address him as Dad. Sometimes I wonder if anyone thinks we are in a different type of relationship. He is generally polite so will hold doors, let me go first that type of thing. This really came to mind when I was pregnant and it was just the two of us.

I think it's interesting how even some things that are "acceptable" to the masses is something that could be intenditifed as being submissive to a man...and yet..they are not addressed as something in control but considered to be old fashioned. For example lil rose mentioned ordering food. I prefer that as well, is it because I'm submissive, doubtful more because I feel more comfortable not having to talk to the waitress. Do I get funny looks because of it? Yes,but I don't care. I look at it in terms of him taking care of my needs, and as him being poilite. Men used to do that all the time (I'm not that old *giggling). Point is even though at times it may seem odd, or the server will address me for those secondary questions, he always answers and it's just part of how we are. Sometimes I wonder if they think it is odd that he does that but to be honest I don't care.

I do think there is something to be said for guarding your relationship. If you want it to be all out there, then fine, do so in an appropriate place and way. Meaning, if you are so concerned about offending somebody then act accordingly. There are many ways to show your respect for your Master without creating a show.

I don't have a Master but I do get many looks and comments because of how my man takes care and treats me. We don't show off,we are just us and it's not about how others see it but what makes the two of you whole.

 

[catalina_francisco]

night-club situation. the mall we even leave the cuffs home as well.

And as far as how you guys react. Sorry if you do not feel how I lvie my life as what you deem "acceptable." But that's just it, it is MY life, and my entire life I've lived amongst people who did not really accept me anyways. I'm an athiest who grew up amongst some of the most intolerant catholics in teh world. And after trying to hide my views from them, I decided I didn't like pretending to be something I'm not. So I stopped pretending it, and it lead to admitting the rest of myself.

I used to think this forum was more open-minded and willign to accept what-others do as their own way of self-expression. But if I'm wrong, i will gladly leave and let you all be with your own beliefs rather then argue over it.

So if you like being naked, would you go to the local supermarket naked and be surprised if you were arrested simply for doing what you like to do....some people like to assault or kill people too, but they also have to live within what is acceptable by society as a whole or live with the consequences of their actions....some people like to use abusive language on everyone they meet, but they will be confronted for their behaviour at the least, possibly arrested for disturbing the peace. It is all about learning to live as a responsible adult within society as a whole and respect the rights of others as much as you seem to think they should respect yours. What makes it more right for you to be confrontational and shove your lifestyle down their throats than their right to be outraged or disapproving of your doing that and want to be able to go shopping ryc., without having to deal with you and your attitude? Think about it.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

See I see this as confrontational with the intent to at least raise eyebrows, more so than a way of life. You know it is going to get a reaction in mainstream society and yet you keep adding more and more items to draw that attention to yourselves, and then become confrontational with anyone who reacts to it....that to me is going out to create a scene more so than living a lifestyle because that is who you are. As you say, it is a big turn on....IOW you are getting off on the reactions of others, not authentically living as M/s as a lifestyle choice....basically it has nothing to do with if you are M/s but moreso if it gets you the attention you need to survive.

We actually get off on being M/s too, but that factor does not rely on going out in public to shock and stand up to people who just want to go about their daily life without having to be confrointed with your attention seeking behaviour. May sound harsh, but it is evident in your words and the mistake you make is in thinking if you are having fun that is all that matters...most who are serious about the lifestyle and live it daily on that basis hold the rights of others as equal to their own and do not include others in their activities without consent or with the intent to upset or disrupt. For us it does not matter if anyone else knows, what matters is we know and we live it without the need to push our choices and ways in the face of other people including children.

Catalina

Word.

For me, I find quite the opposite is true than what is being purposed about public display. On one hand I realise that public display may have its place in the kink and fetish world and there is an aspect which is hot and lustful about it, yet the things which are really shared on an "intimate" level are things which I find the hardest to want to share in such an open or blantant way.

As you said, " it does not matter if anyone else knows".

As I continue to grow in my own thinking, I see those who adopt such a veiw as being more mature and wise. As I said before, I have a respect for those who make the choice not to impose their lifestyle on others, however if done in such a way as to not draw attention, I think there is room for it that two people can experience and enjoy.

Something whipsered in the ear to the effect of, "I am gld that you are my Master" while in a crowded room has muc more intrinsic value to me on a personal level than if one were to say out loud in the same crowded room, "Master shall I fetch us both some drinks."

I don't care what others think or if they know, I am only concerned with what is going on in the heart and mind of the one who is mine. That's what is special to me and I don't like sharing that with anyone else, call me selfish.

 

[Toa_lin]

So if you like being naked, would you go to the local supermarket naked and be surprised if you were arrested simply for doing what you like to do....some people like to assault or kill people too, but they also have to live within what is acceptable by society as a whole or live with the consequences of their actions....some people like to use abusive language on everyone they meet, but they will be confronted for their behaviour at the least, possibly arrested for disturbing the peace. It is all about learning to live as a responsible adult within society as a whole and respect the rights of others as much as you seem to think they should respect yours. What makes it more right for you to be confrontational and shove your lifestyle down their throats than their right to be outraged or disapproving of your doing that and want to be able to go shopping ryc., without having to deal with you and your attitude? Think about it.

Catalina

*sigh* If you feel like you need to make my choices as equivalent to abuse assault murder etc. Then by all means go right ahead. As i stated erlier I really don't care what others say about me, they have as much right to express themselves as I do. And tehy may make teh looks tehy want, talk aobtu us how they feel, een her, adn I wont take it up with them. It's when they blatantly make an ass of themselves and attempt to humiliate or desparage her that I take a bit of offense. but, sicne I see i am not welcome, at least in this thread, I shall leav you all be, if you'd prefer me to not be here at all, tehn you may simply ask and I shall leave. That's all I want, if they don't like it, tehy can ask us to leave and we will.

 

[shy slave]

I hate to sound dense, but I have never understood how calling him Master, Daddy (which we use in private) or KingDaddyBigDick makes me more submissive than calling him by his given name does. It's just a word. My obedience is what defines my submissiveness.

Similarly, for all he cares, I can call him Willie Wonka if it turns me on..as long as I am doing whatever it was he wants me to do at the time.

I have to agree.

Master has always felt awkward and false.

As if we were playing at this relationship rather than being ourselves.

I recently found emails where we were discussing the word 'Master' before we had even met. I was surprised that we had done this, but my view was the same then as now. It is used by 100's and is interchangeable if you find a new 'Master'

I have ended up calling him his name. We would like to find a name but everything we find doesn't fit properly.

Equally, in public he calls me my name. In private he calls me anything he wants.

I am not allowed to call him 'fucking bastard' in public or private even when he is one

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's when they blatantly make an ass of themselves and attempt to humiliate or desparage her that I take a bit of offense.

Bit like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? As to talk of leaving etc., simply because people aren't patting you on the back, this is a discussion board, not a popularity and reassurance forum and most adults accept people are not all going to agree with everything any one person says or does. The beauty of the forum is you will usually get a good dose of reality and honesty instead of a lot of fake people telling you how wonderful you are and then talking about you behind your back and snickering when you fall flat on your face...as you have found with your parading your sub on a leash in public, not everyone is going to think you are superDom for doing it and some are even going to question you and your right to do so....tomorrow you could say something most agree with...it is life.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

Wow. Because several people essentially feel using the terms Master/slave in public, or using a collar/leash in public, is no more appropriate than a couple groping and kissing all over each other in public, the forum is intolerant and narrow minded?

My response is based on *my* definition of public, which I believe may be part of where the two camps part ways. Doing these things in a like minded club would not bother me one bit- because the crowd one encounters has agreed by their very presence, to participate in seeing such things. However, my definition of "using Master/slave/cuffs/leash publicly" is while shopping, or going to the theatre, or being out to dinner.

Does one have a "right" to call their beloved Master or slave, and wander about wearing a very obvious collar, or holding a leash like one is Master of all they survey,whilst in "public"? Yes. Is it rude to do so? Hell yes.

It doesn't force those around you to become more accepting of alternative lifestyles... it it forces parents to have to answer a child's question about why that lady is wearing a dog's leash, or "why did that man call her a slave?". It also gives one pause, to wonder if a man is calling his partner "slave", is it a loving relationship, or an abusive one (particularly if any signs of bruising exsist)- "slave" is a rather loaded word, even today, you see.

If one doesn't want to deal with confrontations by "idiots" who are offended by one's actions, then it is best to evaluate how one behaves, and find an alternative means to get the same *internal satisfaction* without risking public ridicule.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am not allowed to call him 'fucking bastard' in public or private even when he is one

LOL, see if I call F a 'fucking bastard' in private, he sees it as a compliment and he usually just increases whatever he is doing while having an evil chuckle at my expense.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

LOL, see if I call F a 'fucking bastard' in private, he sees it as a compliment and he usually just increases whatever he is doing while having an evil chuckle at my expense.

Catalina

I only did it once and he laughs now, he didn't at the time.

Recently some danish friends of his asked him what I called him. His response was 'fucking bastard' and yet out loud it really has only been once!

 

[RJMasters]

*sigh* If you feel like you need to make my choices as equivalent to abuse assault murder etc. Then by all means go right ahead. As i stated erlier I really don't care what others say about me, they have as much right to express themselves as I do. And tehy may make teh looks tehy want, talk aobtu us how they feel, een her, adn I wont take it up with them. It's when they blatantly make an ass of themselves and attempt to humiliate or desparage her that I take a bit of offense. but, sicne I see i am not welcome, at least in this thread, I shall leav you all be, if you'd prefer me to not be here at all, tehn you may simply ask and I shall leave. That's all I want, if they don't like it, tehy can ask us to leave and we will.

Toa

I don't think that is it all. Take a step bakc here and consider the conversation from a higher persepctive.

I think I have a respect for someone who chooses to live thier live by their own rules and their own way. You won't get an argument out of me in that vein. I don't think that what is being questioned here is neccessarily your right or your freedom to live your life as you choose. Nor do I think its warranted to say that people who are trying to point out some other aspects of this activity for you to consider as being closed-minded.

You are welcome, but it doesn't mean that everything you espoused is or will be accepted.

There has to be a balance in the topic we are discussing. Surely you understand that. The fact that you do not take the handcuffs to the mall, says that you are conscious at some level of social interaction and the conswequences that arise.

I think what is being put forward for your consideration is that that though your perspective and approach to you is a matter of personal choice and the right to express such, it can and does produce results which lead to confrontation.

I think the question is, do you feel your rleationship should be used as a vehicle in which to create such confrontation? I think it is unrealistic of you to ignore social norms and put this on others and their response. I think that in some ways is an avoidance of personal responsibility.

At the same time what I see also being put forth for your consideration is other perspective in how to look at it.

What's the point in discussion if all we ever do is agree? Take a step back and take a second look. You may or may not change your thinking based off this conversation, but increasing your awareness of how others think about it can only help you to reinforce your own thinking on a matter or broaden your perspective a little and make you go hmmmm, "never thought of it in quite that way before".

 

[Netzach]

I guess I can't really grok passing my perversions off as "Biblical" or something so that they feel more justified. QUOTE]

Since when is submission a perversion?

As I view it, it is. I live in a society that claims to espouse egalitarian principles, whether it lives up to them or not, is anyone's guess, but settling your disputes in a relationship by unilateral decision rather than compromise will not have any mainstream shrink on board with that. Ergo - it's a perversion. Like being gay or non-Christian or anything else that doesn't have the mainstream stamp of approval on it.

Since when does it need justifying?

See above. Although the mental health community may have declared us "ok" in the last couple of years, they still don't know what the hell to do with us. So, yes, you need to be justified or very quiet.

Since when are the principles of devotion or acknowledging another's authority considered to be evil, wrong or perverse?

Could blame Feminism, Voltaire, Jefferson, the Quakers or whatever you like. But "obedience" isn't up there with "rugged individualism."

And if not evil, wrong or perverse then why can they not parallel certain principles?

Sure, but if that's all you think you're doing is mirroring something there if you pop wood when she's on her knees, you're disingenuous or delusional in some measure. The Bible doesn't say anything nice about the surging lust that is *my* desire, or that of most sadsitc D's if their descriptions are to be taken at face value. If it does, please correct me, I'm not a fan of the sequel to part 1 as you know, but I'll bite.

I know in D/s relationships or any kind of relationship being honest is key. the bible also teaches "do not lie"? Are you saying that these princples are not the same? Some consider the bible to be a compilation of books which teach good principles in which one can live their life by. It doesn't mean they believe everything thing it says. My point is simply that the reference was not meant to be some justification of any kind. it

1. It was a story that a "man" was telling about a woman who lived 5000 years before he wrote that story

2. The story consisted of saying that in those days women had a beauty about them that came from a gentle or quiet spirit.

3. That she called her husband "Master" and was not afraid to do so.

To me, the biblical spin on D/s is like when serious masochists try to explain to a scared vanilla "it's just like massage, really." No. No it's not. If it is, I'm missing it altogether. Or you're doing something really different from what I'm doing.

The women I see in today's society that most closely resembles or displays these "kind" of qualities and beauty that stem from a gentle and quiet spirit are submissive type women.

I don't know anyone with a gentle and quiet spirit, there's too much modernity and need to make cash. Except for a few Buddhists in St. Paul. And they're really annoying.

I happen to love women who have these qualities about them and make no apology for it. I happen to see submission as a from of strength of character. In many ways I see submission as a sacred thing in its own way.

That in no way means that I look upon women who are dominant in nature as "ugly". Women who are dominant possess a beauty of their own which I can respect and even admire, but it does not attract me in the same way.

I'm not trying to wrap everything up in some santimonious wrapper, I just don't think that everything D/s or even BDSM related has to be wrapped up in a perverse perspective either for it to be true or for it to be an enjoyable part of a relationship between two people.

OK, you're right, I probably err on the opposite side of the spectrum. I also see a really deep divide in social and D/s-personal orientation. I'm more likely to sniff the potentially submissive aura in a doctor who's way too tightly wound or a middle manager who's way too overburdened with conflicting demands - people totally failing to project placidity or peace.

 

[JMohegan]

And RJ's quote from Peter is quite the answer for the curious or the negative.

Quite an answer indeed.

And if someone questions why you've ordered your partner to service the Grand Poobah at the local club, you could always tell the story of Abraham heading down to Egypt with his wife, ordering her to pretend to be his sister, and offering her to the Pharaoh for a tidy sum.

And if you tire of one of your slaves (and any illegitimate offspring belonging thereto), you could always justify kicking them out of your life by telling the story of Hagar and Ishmael.

And I suppose you could justify something else by telling the story of Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd outside his front door. But let's not go there.

Really.

Let's not go there.

I've heard people use the Bible to justify nonconsensual slavery and to condemn homosexuals. To support war in the Middle East and to explain Katrina as God's punishment for the wicked.

Using that ancient text to support one cause is no more outrageous than using it to support another, because interpretation of the Bible is a matter of individual perspective and faith.

In short - the arguments only hold water with those who already believe in the sanctity of what is being espoused.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Quite an answer indeed.

And if someone questions why you've ordered your partner to service the Grand Poobah at the local club, you could always tell the story of Abraham heading down to Egypt with his wife, ordering her to pretend to be his sister, and offering her to the Pharaoh for a tidy sum.
....
In short - the arguments only hold water with those who already believe in the sanctity of what is being espoused.

Indeed this is so. But keep in mind that with your own example, if someone is in a position to know that your submissive is servicing the Grand Poobah, they should already understand why.

It doesn't matter who or what your source of justification is. The arguements of Marx, or Neitzsche or Yung, or Freud, or Woody Allen or Al Sharpton or Charlton Heston, or Eleanor Roosevelt will only be believed by "those who already believe in the sanctity of what is being espoused."

*shrugs*

EVERYONE uses some sort of authority, guide, philosophy, learning, education, and/or experience to base their decisions on and to justify their actions. NO ONE makes decisions in a vacuum. For all I care personally, someone can justify their actions with "because the Great Face On Mars told me to..."

If someone feels the need to justify their actions to another, what justification should they use? One that will fall on deaf ears? Or one that will at least be listened to, if not supported? I go with the latter and tailor the explanation to the audience.

Joe Stranger doesn't need to know details, they need to understand the concept. Most people in Western culture will at least understand the Biblical explanation or arguement and will listen. They may very well cut you off with a closed mind at the utterance of "My slave and I have a Total Power Exchange relationship and ...."

If nothing else, it makes a reference point the listener can at least go and research for themselves. It's readily accessible while information about TPE may not exactly be available at the local library or Waldenbooks.

Use the tools that will work.