My First Story

[Jenny_Jackson]

It's hilarious when you (and others) say that to me, Jenny. Like I'd be wounded or something that you use that in an argument? Let's just compare eXcessica paydays, shall we? Nuff said.

But I think it's great that you and Elfin post what you do here. It helps my arguments a lot.

No I said I wasn't going to comment, SR. Now why don't you and your crony, Scouries, stop putting words in my mouth. Why don't you put one of your stories up here and I will gladly comment. I've done so in the past.

 

[Auden James]

Running battle

Sorry, sr71plt and Jenny Jackson, to interrupt you, but could you be so kind (and mature) to fight your running battle offside the actual topic, for example, via PM? Thanks.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, sr71plt and Jenny Jackson, to interrupt you, but could you be so kind (and mature) to fight your running battle offside the actual topic, for example, via PM? Thanks.

Fine with me. I was summoned to this thread by Elfin, and I've already suggested that she move it to PM (although, of course, I haven't received a PM from her).

Meanwhile I'll be in Florida hobnobbing with my "crony," Scouries.

(As I understand it, Jenny's spending her PMs claiming I am Scouries. And the only greater evidence than this of just how dense she is is her apparent inability to "get" that I have no reason to give a rat's behind what she thinks of my stories. She's a real dope to think anyone would think she'd do anything other then tear them apart under the circumstances anyway. I let the marketplace provide the assessment.)

 

[sr71plt]

Hey heather,

I want to be honest:

The difference between us seems to be that I will accept that someone who wants to post a story here has the right to do so and that if what they write turns them on, there will probably be at least a few others on a broadbased site like this who will enjoy it as well. (There were a bunch just on this thread who liked it well enough--or at least were willing to say they did.)

The job of an editor is to take what's given and try to help the writer make the most out of it on their own ground--not to rewrite it or do a Simon Crowell "never do this again" on them.

One thing I did here that no one else has done is to take the writer to her own text to point out what I thought was working or not--so she can see what I was talkiing about. Most everything else here is condescending preaching to her.

As far as this not being a new story, there very likely aren't any new story plotlines out there (I'd never say never); it's all in what twists you put on the existing ones. This is hardly a revolutionary thought.

And as far as making a story out of what's here, I gave two examples of how I think it could be developed more fully and be made into a full story. And I think I could do so using one or both of the examples (and that many other writers here could too).

There are very few giving help on "Story Feedback" who are qualified to be doing a good, constructive job with it. A few doing so are only doing so to stroke their own egos cheaply--claiming expertise over something they either don't or can't do themselves (so, what else is new with critics?). Those who really have high-quality help to give are busy writing themselves and/or working directly with writers who are contacting them directly.

I think most who are posting here for feedback on specific stories are, in reality, posting here to trawl for readers and with the hope that someone (if only their own alts) will tell them (and potential readers) that they are brilliant writers. Which is an OK reason for them to use this board.

The ones looking for serious assessments and help will read stories and pick out authors who write as they would like to do so themselves--and contact these folks directly for help.

 

[Auden James]

Take a 2nd look

The difference between us seems to be that I will accept that someone who wants to post a story here has the right to do so and that if what they write turns them on, there will probably be at least a few others on a broadbased site like this who will enjoy it as well.

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I also accept it, too*. My scepticism came from a critical view on this rather trivial (and to some extent mindless) assumption that just because there is a possibility to do something (in this case submit a text to lit) one should also do it and be content about it. Besides heather never stated whether or not her own story turns her on -- you're just making further hollow assumptions. And that you'll find at least one specimen in the human population who'd find joy in any imaginable act (even in reading bad stories, for example, penny dreadfuls) is most likely to actually be the case, so I don't see the point in that, too, as in this logic the consequence had to be: anything goes -- also terrorism, murder and so on...

(*First of all because I cannot do anything to actually prevent it and therefore have to accept it anyway. The real difference between us is that you'll blindly encourage such acting whereas I, myself, try to coerce the writer to reflect about his writing, especially its quality, what should be a lot more helpful than simply leading the writer down the wrong alley and even trying to justify it with feeble arguments! You know, we're not speaking about a piece of grandeur here, by no means...)

The job of an editor is to take what's given and try to help the writer make the most out of it on their own ground--not to rewrite it or do a Simon Crowell "never do this again" on them.

The job of an editor who really takes his job serious (as any editor in the true meaning of the word should) is above all to be honest and give primarily advice based on his in all honesty drawn conclusions.

If the editor's honest conclusion is that the writer of a specific text should 'never do this again' then it's imperative for the editor to do just that! Otherwise his dishonesty is nothing short of hypocrisy and blatant lying...

 

[sr71plt]

You're making a whole bunch of chin-thrusting assertions too. You're welcome to your opinions, though.

A "real" book editor like I am doesn't have the choice of telling an author just to quit, by the way. We are hired by a publisher to work with a manuscript the publisher has already bought.

I only once got a manuscript rejected that I'd been hired to work on--and that's because it was riddled with evidence the author wasn't really an expert in what he claimed he was (and that had been a question posed to me when the manuscript was sent to me). Other than that, as a "real" editor I work with what is given me.

I did edit one eXcessica book that I advised shouldn't be published--but it was. And I did the best I could with it while it was my responsibility to work with.

If I am sent a short story for Lit. that I don't think can be worked up well enough to be posted at a free erotica mega site, I'll just decline the request to work with it at all.

And if I'd thought that was the plight of Heather's story, I wouldn't have commented to it at all.

That's the reality of being a "real" editor.

If you wish to pursue this farther, why don't you PM me rather than continuing to rake Heather over the coals like this?

 

[sr71plt]

By the way, Auden, what's your expertise for critiquing erotica? You have all of one poem posted to Lit.

 

[_Lynn_]

. . . The ones looking for serious assessments and help will read stories and pick out authors who write as they would like to do so themselves--and contact these folks directly for help.

I wonder though, how many of those might just be a bit too intimidated in the beginning to contact someone directly.

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder though, how many of those might just be a bit too intimidated in the beginning to contact someone directly.

A lot, I'm sure, unfortunately. Nothing's easy for them, though. They get butchered here, sometimes by reviewers no more expert than they are, and there are some here who think it's all right to go out as vigilantes and send them unsolicited reviews too.

I know of at least one newbie who did directly contact someone for help and arrived at a story that rates quite well on Lit., though. So, I still recommend it.

What's the alternative?

 

[_Lynn_]

A lot, I'm sure, unfortunately. Nothing's easy for them, though. They get butchered here, sometimes by reviewers no more expert than they are, and there are some here who think it's all right to go out as vigilantes and send them unsolicited reviews too.

I know of at least one newbie who did directly contact someone for help and arrived at a story that rates quite well on Lit., though. So, I still recommend it.

What's the alternative?

I don't know, to be honest. When I first came to Lit, I was scared to PM someone for help. What did I know about writing? I read about people having books out and working with publishers and felt out of my league. So I watched, and learned a bit about the people in the AH. That helped me discover who was approachable and who wasn't.

Several newbies have contacted me with questions. I give polite and informative replies, the same as I was looking for when I arrived here.

Three years ago I knew nothing about writing. Today I know far more than I ever could have imagined back then. I'm not an expert. But I don't claim to be either.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't know, to be honest. When I first came to Lit, I was scared to PM someone for help. What did I know about writing? I read about people having books out and working with publishers and felt out of my league. So I watched, and learned a bit about the people in the AH. That helped me discover who was approachable and who wasn't.

Several newbies have contacted me with questions. I give polite and informative replies, the same as I was looking for when I arrived here.

Three years ago I knew nothing about writing. Today I know far more than I ever could have imagined back then. I'm not an expert. But I don't claim to be either.

Did you post a link to a story here on the "Story Feedback" page and ask for a read/review, and if so, how was the response you got?

 

[_Lynn_]

Did you post a link to a story here on the "Story Feedback" page and ask for a read/review, and if so, how was the response you got?

I did. El Paso.

 

[sr71plt]

I did. El Paso.

Ah, some great, sensitive, and encouraging feedback from some folks who were/are actually great writers of erotica at Lit.

Apparently "those were the days."

 

[_Lynn_]

Ah, some great, sensitive, and encouraging feedback from some folks who were/are actually great writers of erotica at Lit.

Apparently "those were the days."

I even got brave enough to put one in the SDC. The piece was way different than anything I had done before, and I wanted to hear what worked and what didn't. I learned a lot from that one.

 

[sr71plt]

I even got brave enough to put one in the SDC. The piece was way different than anything I had done before, and I wanted to hear what worked and what didn't. I learned a lot from that one.

Interesting, but I don't see how you can assess only part of a story. Fiction is sort of an all or nothing issue when critiquing content.

 

[_Lynn_]

Interesting, but I don't see how you can assess only part of a story. Fiction is sort of an all or nothing issue when critiquing content.

I agree. It was the mod's preference to assess only part of it though, not mine. But comments on my writing style at that time were very helpful.

 

[foldedpaper]

Whoah there!

As a novice write on this site I really don't feel encouraged by this airing of dirty laundry in public between "editors/contributors"

My view on the original story (quite possibly what the author was after rather than the willy waving that this thread has become) was that, no it wasn't the most original idea , but if it is based on experience, then great, start with that. Most of us initially base our "fiction" on facts.

There are a fair few typos in the story - run the text through Word and it'll help with most (but not all) of them, which always frustrate me (although I'm far from perfect on that front!)

It does also feel a bit rushed... the guy grabbing our heroine in the jacuzzi seems to happen very quickly, happen and finish in seconds. We never find out how she really feels about that... maybe that could be developed, so she enjoys it despite herself, who knows - it is your story, after all!

I think it does have potential, but feels like a first draft, rather than a fully fledged story. I look forward to seeing the finished article. If you'd like me to look at it first, I'd be happy to - although there are far more qualified editors out there in the Lit world. (but looking at their postings, some of them could do with using a spell check themselves!)

The other thing to note is that there is some dispute over the merits of your story, even between the luminaries on the site - therefore if they can't all be right, maybe none of them are! I'd suggest taking the practical advice on board but ignoring a lot of the more destructive stuff - if you want to write, write! If they want to argue, fight and trample on egos, let them get on with it! Just don't get involved in what is obviously a private fight being taken into the public realm (unless that's your thing!)

 

[LaRocha]

I'm certified to give story feedback in the story feedbag since I've jacked off to a lot of Literotica's dirty stories. My feedback usually consists of whether the story was jerkoffable or not. This story I'm not really getting a boner for. I still jack off to some of my old stories.

"Look at that ass on that broad." And most of the dialogue is an erection killer. The degrading language shouldn't be the first style of language used when people meet. The language itself is sort of comical degrading though, like clowning around sex talk instead of real sex chat. I'd recommend checking out some porno language star like nonstopfunguy or even that asshole Scouries. They do the degrading thing well at times. Someone probably said this already, but for each new line of dialogue start a new paragraph.

 

[DavidJames]

Boner-ific

Loved the big boobies!!! Boobies good!!! Your story did arouse me, but needed to be longer.

 

[Auden James]

The "real" editor

@ sr71plt

I didn't make any referene towards the regular employment as an editor of a book publisher. I discussed ethics of a 'volunteer editor' here at lit*. Furthermore I did never say that 'free' editors at lit should boldly tell an author to quit. I said that they should be honest if they think that a specific piece isn't worth to further work on it (for some kind of imaginary standard of quality seems to be out of reach)!

(*By the way, professional editors, at least here in Germany, have to reject shoals of unrequested manuscripts every day...)

By the way, Auden, what's your expertise for critiquing erotica? You have all of one poem posted to Lit.

To put it in a nutshell: My "expertise for critiquing erotica" (as you call it) is my own critical thinking, based on philosophical notions of aesthetics and empirical knowledge of reading erotica (and literature in general) a lot.

*

I just had to get this straight as you gave false colour to my statements.

 

[sr71plt]

@ sr71plt

I didn't make any referene towards the regular employment as an editor of a book publisher. I discussed ethics of a 'volunteer editor' here at lit*. Furthermore I did never say that 'free' editors at lit should boldly tell an author to quit. I said that they should be honest if they think that a specific piece isn't worth to further work on it (for some kind of imaginary standard of quality seems to be out of reach)!

(*By the way, professional editors, at least here in Germany, have to reject shoals of unrequested manuscripts every day...)


To put it in a nutshell: My "expertise for critiquing erotica" (as you call it) is my own critical thinking, based on philosophical notions of aesthetics and empirical knowledge of reading erotica (and literature in general) a lot.

*

I just had to get this straight as you gave false colour to my statements.

This discussion thread has nothing to do with Lit.'s Voluntary Editor system--or its Voluntary Editors, Auden. Jenny, at least, has acknowledged that she's not an editor (which just adds to her occasional acknowledgments earlier that she doesn't write erotica--which, in turn gives us a trip to the world of Alice in Wonderland ). Elfin has never responded to the question of who she edits for here or anywhere else. I am not in the Voluntary Editor system--I only respond to those on Lit. who directly contact me for help.

The acceptance/rejection by editors in Germany also has nothing to do with the discussion either--and if you are suggesting that German copy editors hired by publishers just willy-nilly reject working on manuscripts they are contracted to work on, I say you know nothing about copy editing anywhere, including Germany. I responded to the choosing to take on an editing project at Lit. already--if I discerned it wasn't something I thought could meet minimum standards here or be of interest to a subset of readers, I'd just decline to edit it. I certainly wouldn't lambast it in public.

And your own demonstrated ability to work with erotica or not has everything to do with whether you should be critiquing what others write in the realm of erotica. This is sort of a "duh" that makes this whole discussion on this thread and board surrealistic.

You started off here by saying this should be discussed in PMs rather than on this thread. I invited you to discuss it that way. You can't even follow your own self-righteous suggestions.

 

[Auden James]

@ sr71plt

Well, again you force me to get things straight:

You did come up with the whole muddy bleding of an (professional) editor's job with the feedback given in this thread on heather's story, prior to it you had already started wandering off into the realm of discussing desirable ways of giving feedback and doing editing on a meta level with Jenny and Elfin -- and now you're reproaching me of not realizing that this thread just isn't about any of this at all (in the first instance)? Woha...

And moreover you're prevaricating again:

I did start off here with my feedback, since heather requested feedback (otherwise she wouldn't have posted her text here), before you reckoned that all the others but you were incapable of 'not self-righteous feedback' (I won't quote the obvious).

And, yes, editors in Germany (and I think in America and Britain and all over the world, too) have to reject countless unrequested, sent in manuscripts though they're hired to fish out the gems (and hoped to be best-sellers) and also edit all the works of the already contracted authors of the publisher (of course, the latter they cannot turn down, silly to mention this anyway).

Last but not least you're definition of who ought to be competent enough to earn the right to critique the work of others is just hollow as it leaves a lot more questions unanswered than it pretends to give answers to (What is meant with "demonstrated ability to work with erotica"? How to 'demonstrate' it? Who should have the authority to acknowledge such 'demonstration'? What is 'erotica'? Why is it conclusive at all that those who have been acknowledged by a nebulous authority would be superior to any other critic?).

In fact, I question the idea of a special 'right to critique', though prooving it (however small its authority may be (if it even exists), for the strenght of this authority would be solely based on the obtained acceptance by as much readers (and thus other critics, too) as possible) can only be done by giving reasond value jugdements based on a higher concept than the mundane private sense -- which, of course, could also be approved by a majority of people, thus giving the respective 'critique' a strong authority simply because the majority of people share the critic's opinion. Unfortunately, history has proven that it's not always the truth (or even the 'best') what most people hold as being true (or 'best'), just think of the Nazis and the 3rd Reich, holocaust...

 

[heather88xxx]

Very nice first start. Could feel your heat watching and being watched. Good end.
You might review it for typos. "Slide" should be slid. I hope you don't mind my commenting on the grammar.

Thank you. No I don't mind people telling me about grammatical errors. English isn't my first nor second language so I appreciate people letting me know about my mistakes.

@ Jenny, Erica, CWatson, and Sr71plt,

Thanks for the feedback. I wouldn't say that I have the toughest skin but I do want to know exactly how people feel about the story. With this being my first story, I know that I need to develop my characters and give them more depth.

But what I really wanted to hear was if I was able to let readers understand where I was trying to go with the story. I hope I have accomplished that much even if it is at a very basic level. Thanks again guys.

 

[heather88xxx]

And finally Auden... I would love to see some of your first writing attempts and compare them with this story and the next ones that I fully intend to write.

Later you'll probably laugh about it as everybody does about his first writing attempts, me included -- God, I'd still blush showing it to anyone!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

heather, never ask to see my early attempts at erotica - at least I've deleted them from Word. It would take a trawl of the hard disc to find them and then I'd jump off the bridge.

You're not doing too bad so far.