Narrative in Present Tense

[SimonDoom]

I like second person point of view, but it is really hard to pull off for both the reader and the writer.

That is because it is so specific. Because the writer is writing specifically to the reader... "you rolled under the pressure of my hand" for instance... when the writer get the details right, and the reader is enraptured and caught up in the moment because they can envision whatever is being described as being done to them directly. That is immensely powerful.

But the opposite is also true. "I find that spot just above the small of your back that makes you almost instantly hitch your breath with want" as an example; would be powerful, but ONLY IF you had a particular erogenous zone on the small of your back. If the reader doesn't have that, then the reader withdraws from the story completely thinking, 'That is not me', with a huff and a snarl. That ruins the magic of second person point of view.

But even in those two points, second person point of view is even tougher to write than just that. If the writer does their story with only generalities and little detail and becomes a downright cheesy sounding story. But add details that the reader does not have, and they disengage from the story. But while rare... if the details of a second person point of story lines up well with the reader, then it is an immensely powerful story that first and third person point of view cannot even approach in terms of emotional impact.

But tough, tough, tough to pull off.

Your examples are first person POV, not second person POV, because the narration is from the point of view of "I." The fact that "you" is being addressed is irrelevant to the point of view. It's first person POV.

Second person would be:

You rolled under the pressure of her hand, and you delighted in the sensation.

 

[StillStunned]

Second person would be:

You rolled under the pressure of her hand, and you delighted in the sensation.

I know I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't, but... You Know You Shouldn’t

 

[SimonDoom]

I know I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't, but... You Know You Shouldn’t

But you did. Yes, that's second person POV. I have one too.

 

[AG31]

I'd argue that those examples are actually just 1P POV, addressing a second person. They're not narrated from the second person's perspective.

Can you give us an example of 2nd person as you understand it? Or perhaps it doesn't exist?

 

[TheLobster]

Can you give us an example of 2nd person as you understand it? Or perhaps it doesn't exist?

The story @StillStunned linked above is a good example.

 

[SimonDoom]

Can you give us an example of 2nd person as you understand it? Or perhaps it doesn't exist?

He linked to it.

Here's a link to my second person POV story: https://www.literotica.com/s/public-exposure-4

 

[StillStunned]

A word of warning, though: it's in I/T, with possible overtones of non-consent. The tagline is "She's your mother. You really shouldn't."

 

[Britva415]

I agree, 2p is a perversion of 1p.

Or I suppose it could be a perversion of 3p.

At any rate, there's not really such a thing as "told from the 2p point of view." I believe 2p is only a grammatical voice and not a literary/narrative POV like 1p and 3p are.

A 2p story is told to that person. The point of view is imposed upon them. By a first person narrator. Or maybe a third, but, good luck conveying that in the narrative. Either way, I don't believe it can be said to really be the second person's POV.

Even @StillStunned 's good example - it's been a while since I read it but it's a first-person talking to theirself. Addressing theirself.

So - it's 2p voice, sure, but I find it to be equivocal whether to regard it as 1p POV or 2p POV. And that's only in this special case, because it's the person talking to theirself. Regarding other 2p stories, to me it's not 2p POV at all but a perversion of 1p.

 

[StillStunned]

A 2p story is told to that person. The point of view is imposed upon them. By a first person narrator. Or maybe a third, but, good luck conveying that in the narrative. Either way, I don't believe it can be said to really be the second person's POV.

Good point about 2P being told *to* someone. I'd say 1P is told *by* a notional character, 3P is told *about* a notional character, but 2P is told *to* a notional character. These are not just grammatical distinctions: they're different devices, with different effects.

You say the POV is imposed by a 1P narrator. I'd say, rather, that 2P cuts out the device of a narrator. So instead of writer-narrator-reader, you just have writer-reader. It creates a much greater sense of immediacy, and a closer connection between writer and reader.

Is that always a good thing? Probably not, judging by how few stories are told in 2P. Can it be done effectively? Sure, there are some examples of fairly successful books written in 2P.

Did my own story succeed? I like to think it works, but its 3.94 rating suggests otherwise. Perhaps if I'd chosen a different theme - I suppose readers don't like to be reminded that their kink is problematic - and written something more positive, the score might be higher. But that was precisely the point of using 2P for that particular story, or for telling that particular story in 2P.

 

[AG31]

I agree, 2p is a perversion of 1p.

Or I suppose it could be a perversion of 3p.

At any rate, there's not really such a thing as "told from the 2p point of view." I believe 2p is only a grammatical voice and not a literary/narrative POV like 1p and 3p are.

A 2p story is told to that person. The point of view is imposed upon them. By a first person narrator. Or maybe a third, but, good luck conveying that in the narrative. Either way, I don't believe it can be said to really be the second person's POV.

Even @StillStunned 's good example - it's been a while since I read it but it's a first-person talking to theirself. Addressing theirself.

So - it's 2p voice, sure, but I find it to be equivocal whether to regard it as 1p POV or 2p POV. And that's only in this special case, because it's the person talking to theirself. Regarding other 2p stories, to me it's not 2p POV at all but a perversion of 1p.

I don't know if taling to themselves is a requirement for true 2nd person POV, but it's the only kind I can remember reading. Maybe there are examples of other "hearers" in this thread??

 

[AG31]

Good point about 2P being told *to* someone. I'd say 1P is told *by* a notional character, 3P is told *about* a notional character, but 2P is told *to* a notional character. These are not just grammatical distinctions: they're different devices, with different effects.

Excellent.

 

[SimonDoom]

Good point about 2P being told *to* someone. I'd say 1P is told *by* a notional character, 3P is told *about* a notional character, but 2P is told *to* a notional character. These are not just grammatical distinctions: they're different devices, with different effects.

I think this is a good way to put it. Second person POV is the writer "forcing" the reader into the position of the narrator/POV character. It's strange and unsettling, but it has its own artistic purpose.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Good point about 2P being told *to* someone. I'd say 1P is told *by* a notional character, 3P is told *about* a notional character, but 2P is told *to* a notional character. These are not just grammatical distinctions: they're different devices, with different effects.

You say the POV is imposed by a 1P narrator. I'd say, rather, that 2P cuts out the device of a narrator. So instead of writer-narrator-reader, you just have writer-reader. It creates a much greater sense of immediacy, and a closer connection between writer and reader.

Is that always a good thing? Probably not, judging by how few stories are told in 2P. Can it be done effectively? Sure, there are some examples of fairly successful books written in 2P.

Did my own story succeed? I like to think it works, but its 3.94 rating suggests otherwise. Perhaps if I'd chosen a different theme - I suppose readers don't like to be reminded that their kink is problematic - and written something more positive, the score might be higher. But that was precisely the point of using 2P for that particular story, or for telling that particular story in 2P.

You did it entirely to be annoying. You know it's true. You secretly admit it to yourself. You know the rest of us see through it. You wrote every word so carefully drawing every ounce of angst you could from the medium, typing with care to expand the scope of your eerily devious plot. Smirking, you wrote the short description, set your tags, and hit submit. The knowledge nestled in your soul of the horror you had wrought upon us.

Today, with sadistic glee, you sit in your small chamber, feeding on the good graces and understanding of the one who supports you(otherwise known as the Red head), and plot your next nefarious plot to disrupt the continuum with another such travesty. Your only defense, your only vestige of righteousness lies in that single five vote Shelby Dawn admitted she had given, recognizing the effort, or was it the gall, involved in what you'd done.

 

[StillStunned]

You did it entirely to be annoying. You know it's true. You secretly admit it to yourself. You know the rest of us see through it. You wrote every word so carefully drawing every ounce of angst you could from the medium, typing with care to expand the scope of your eerily devious plot. Smirking, you wrote the short description, set your tags, and hit submit. The knowledge nestled in your soul of the horror you had wrought upon us.

Today, with sadistic glee, you sit in your small chamber, feeding on the good graces and understanding of the one who supports you(otherwise known as the Red head), and plot your next nefarious plot to disrupt the continuum with another such travesty. Your only defense, your only vestige of righteousness lies in that single five vote Shelby Dawn admitted she had given, recognizing the effort, or was it the gall, involved in what you'd done.

You know it!

 

[Britva415]

I'd say, rather, that 2P cuts out the device of a narrator

It doesn't, though - not to me. There's no "omnisicient narrator" in a 2p story like there can be in a 3p story.

The way I see (hear? read?) it is that that narrator is some kind of a character within the story with some kind of a relationship with the addressee.

Other interpretations are of course possible but it doesn't negate my experience of reading a 2p manuscript. I don't think (prove me wrong) that it's possible to write a 2p narrative without it ever crossing the reader's mind who's addressing "you." And if the story doesn't offer any clues, that doesn't remove the question, it just fails to answer it.

If there are readers who don't imagine who the narrator is in a 2p narrative, I'd be tickled to hear about it and what that's like. It's not how I experience it but of course I'm just one guy. Similarly, if anyone has ever read or written a piece where they think the utter abstraction into non-existence of the narrator succeeded, again I'd be pleased to take a look and see if I have the same experience.

EDIT: I should add, I appreciated "You Know You Shouldn't." I think you did an admirable job there with the device. Far, far better - many, many orders of magnitude better - than literally any other 2p attempt I've ever seen on Lit.

 

[Britva415]

I don't know if taling to themselves is a requirement for true 2nd person POV, but it's the only kind I can remember reading.

Really? StillStunned's is the only one I can remember reading.

I clicked away from four new stories just yesterday written in 2p from the pov of the lover addressing "you," dictating their fantasy or their memory or their imperatives to "you" from their own non-2p pov.

(Which brings me to another problem I have with 2p narration. It generally is only a stream-of-consciousness fantasy or memory or imperative, and generally fails to include any characterization at all - not of the narrator, and not of the addressee (the "you") either. I don't believe that that's a necessity or an inherent limitation of the voice, but, it's so common that it's one reason these generally fail as "stories" when I come across them and (uncharacteristically) decide to read them.

But yeah. Four, just yesterday, no exaggeration. I could re-find them if anyone's skeptical. I don't really want to, but they're there.

These narrators definitely weren't addressing theirselves. StillStunned's story is the only one I can remember where the writing addressed "you" but didn't ever once include "me" (a different person) or "my" somewhere. Just because "me" and "my" are objects and not subjects doesn't mean they're talking to theirself.

 

[StillStunned]

I had a whole reply typed out, but somehow it got lost. And I have a bad cold, so none of it really seems very important. Maybe I'll try again when I'm feeling less woozy.

I'll only repeat my response to this:

EDIT: I should add, I appreciated "You Know You Shouldn't." I think you did an admirable job there with the device. Far, far better - many, many orders of magnitude better - than literally any other 2p attempt I've ever seen on Lit.

Thanks! Despite everything - the low score, the nasty comments, the fact even that it's 2P - I've always loved this story, and I'm very pleased with what it does.

 

[SimonDoom]

You did it entirely to be annoying. You know it's true. You secretly admit it to yourself. You know the rest of us see through it. You wrote every word so carefully drawing every ounce of angst you could from the medium, typing with care to expand the scope of your eerily devious plot. Smirking, you wrote the short description, set your tags, and hit submit. The knowledge nestled in your soul of the horror you had wrought upon us.

Today, with sadistic glee, you sit in your small chamber, feeding on the good graces and understanding of the one who supports you(otherwise known as the Red head), and plot your next nefarious plot to disrupt the continuum with another such travesty. Your only defense, your only vestige of righteousness lies in that single five vote Shelby Dawn admitted she had given, recognizing the effort, or was it the gall, involved in what you'd done.

Amid all the bluster, you shake your head and admit to yourself, "If only I knew how Simon does it."

You look up and Simon stands in the doorway. He looks worried. "Mom's taken the car again, and a pack of condoms," he says. "That horny bitch."

 

[Britva415]

Nice return to the present-tense topic, after the detour into person voice.