Need advice for a friend

[EvvyFontaine]

Like I said before, just because he likes rough sex doesn't mean he's into BDSM. So he might not be up on the accepted practices, etc.

I'm not trying to make excuses for him. I just know that there are a good many more people in the world who are into hair-pulling and ass-smacking and general rough sex than there are people who are into complicated bondage and counting cane strokes and "Yes, Master"-ing.

If it was just hair-pulling and ass-smacking I wouldn't be so insistent that she run far and fast. What rang my alarm bells was the belt around the throat without permission. Let's get real - breath play is one of those things that has to be acklowledged up front as risky and possibly dangerous. Never, ever, ever should someone mess with your airway without a firm discussion of emergency signals. It should never be a surprise. You should never feel afraid of your partner.

 

[Primalex]

What rang my alarm bells was the belt around the throat without permission.

There was permission. She didn't resist.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The problem here is that from what I could gather, he did not have any kind of conversation with her at all about possible kinky bedroom behavior. Regardless of whether or not she may be sending mixed signals, you shouldn't put your hands on someone in a way that can be construed as violence unless you are dead fucking certain that they want that. Dominance play is not one of those 'well let me do this and see if you like it' things.

This, exactly. If he's got these practices, you can bet he's read porn and possibly how-tos online. And they have absolutely talked about consent. I am sure he's heard of it.

But here's the thing, there are guys out there talking about non-consent and how to get away with it, how far you can go. There are people who preach that you don't ask, don't give her a chance to say no. and from what I have seen, their ideas on how to deal with any fallout are pretty problematic.

There was permission. She didn't resist.

Like that.

Primalex, I think is damn well experienced, and far more alert to signs of resistance than many young kids would be.

 

[EvvyFontaine]

There was permission. She didn't resist.

Oh yes, let me just struggle now that I have something around my neck with the ability to cut off my air, because that's a brilliant fucking decision.

Lack of verbal 'no' does not indicate presence of consent. For someone who has never even dabbled in kink play, having something wrapped around her neck probably triggered her flight/freeze response. There's a difference between being too scared to protest and being into it.

 

[Primalex]

Oh yes, let me just struggle now that I have something around my neck with the ability to cut off my air, because that's a brilliant fucking decision.

You can't accidentally cut the air off with a belt in the doggy style position. A belt is ten times safer than hands there.

That she is overstretching her neck might be one of the actual possible risk. But this is true for hair pulling, too.

Lack of verbal 'no' does not indicate presence of consent. For someone who has never even dabbled in kink play, having something wrapped around her neck probably triggered her flight/freeze response. There's a difference between being too scared to protest and being into it.

a) Doggy style is one of the worst positions for non-consensual activities. It's next to impossible to keep an adult under control that way.

b) She said it scared her a bit, she didn't say she got raped. So it's not only not at all "probably", it's completely impossible - after all, she was there, not you.

c) People who can't breathe, do a lot of stuff, but for sure not freeze.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Also, she said he did NOT tighten the belt, he used it as a leash.

 

[IrisAlthea]

As I said earlier, I gave my friend a link to this thread so she could follow the responses. This is her response...

"so I'm reading the thread responses...to be clear, we has a discussion seeing some limits previously. No pain, no blood, no urine, no scat. I made clear that pain does not turn me on. And I do think that the reminders I've had to give so far were clarifications of that....in other words, when he bites, he is not sure how hard is too hard.

The slap on the face did not hurt...the nipple slap did. I never said no hitting. I didn't think I needed to.

the gist I'm getting from the responses is, that if I'm clear with him that I don't want to be hit, and he does it anyway (again) that that's when I should be worried, yes?

I think my concern comes more from the fact that it wasn't during sex, it was afterward, during what seemed like joking and teasing...and yet, if course, we were still naked and tangled. And I do of course realize that if dominance gets him off, it doesn't necessarily end with orgasm.

Like I said, though, any reminder i\I've had to give were more clarifications on my earlier instructions....how much spanking is too hard, how hard of biting is allowed, etc.The belt scared me a bit, but he didn't pull it hard and after, when he asked if had been ok, I said it scared me, and he said it was supposed to, a little. But he did ask if it was all right. And after he always asks if I'm ok and if I liked it." ~ for clarification... during sex he put his belt around her neck. Not to choke but more to hold in place, she says.

The problem here is that from what I could gather, he did not have any kind of conversation with her at all about possible kinky bedroom behavior. Regardless of whether or not she may be sending mixed signals, you shouldn't put your hands on someone in a way that can be construed as violence unless you are dead fucking certain that they want that. Dominance play is not one of those 'well let me do this and see if you like it' things.

Look at the bolded parts. There has been talk.

Oh yes, let me just struggle now that I have something around my neck with the ability to cut off my air, because that's a brilliant fucking decision.

Lack of verbal 'no' does not indicate presence of consent. For someone who has never even dabbled in kink play, having something wrapped around her neck probably triggered her flight/freeze response. There's a difference between being too scared to protest and being into it.

She says it scared her a bit. Scared a bit is usually not fight/flight/freeze inducing.

Blue's friend, I think you have to make up your mind about if this is hot or not.
If this kind of sex is not working for you at least up to a point, you are not going to be compatible in the long run. Trying to go along because you like him will, in my experience, just prolong the pain of parting.
If on the other hand you do find it hot, at least mostly, and he seems like a good person I think you need to talk about this in a non-sexual situation and work out what it is you want and don't want and how far that will take you.
Also work out some way for you to communicate while having sex, perhaps the colour-coded system Primalex talked about earlier.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Just checked my messages and this was there:


oh my, that mention of the belt sure did throw things into a tizzy....it was consensual. I let him put it on me. it did not threaten my airway. he didn't yank on it. I didn't get much out of it sexually, but HE did, and I didn't mind, and that's the point, right?

yes, we discussed that he likes dominance. yes, we discussed some limits. I am NEW at this and learning what I like and what I don't. And he had been respectful of that so far. He did not choke me with the belt, and he did not put it on me without my consent. When I've let him know he has gone too far, he has backed off. With that, my ignorance is more the problem than anything. I don't know what I like yet, because I've never done it.

My question lies in, what is sex play and what is not? Is the postcoital slap sex play or is this an angry guy I should be afraid of? Does this fit in with what would be considered 'normal' tough sex play or control?

I guess what I have the most difficult time with is her asking if this is all 'normal'. I mean what is 'normal' to one person is a hard limit to another. And I can't seem to find the right words to explain this.

She is very concerned about normalcy and I can understand that. But I keep going back to this idea that if it isn't making you excited and pant... then perhaps it is not for you. I fear that she will do this for her partner and not for herself which makes me think she is headed down a bad road. Am I wrong for thinking this?

 

[Mr_Jon_Thon]

The post-coital slap to the face and panty stuff had nothing to do with sex or play. It was all about responding to teasing a fragile ego. If you get nothing out of his kink, not even a little bit, it might be best to chalk it up to sexual incompatibility and walk away.

 

[luvnmyboys]

It sounds like the kink is all new for her and she may be struggling with how that makes her feel. I can remember feeling weird for liking certain things and had a lot of internal struggle about that. I still feel that on occasion. I recommend that she stops worrying about normal. No one needs to know anything about a person's preferences in the bedroom. If she likes what's going on, go for it. If she doesn't like it and it's scaring her, then perhaps look for someone that is a better match. You could ask all of us what is normal and we're all going to have a different response. To me, it's about finding what you enjoy and what works for you and your partner. I completely understand the hesitation and questioning when you are starting down a new path. It seems unclear whether there has been a really solid conversation about all this, so I agree with the posters above that they should work out a color system or some way to communicate if things are getting to be too much.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Thank you guys so much. Your responses have been very insightful. Just got this

Thanks for helping me out....some of the responses are very helpful.

I'm not stupid, but definitely soooooooo naive! Lol! I guess I'm just pretty ignorant...it's hard to set limits when I don't know what I like yet, beyond what I know for sure, you know? I did enjoy it, no doubt...some of the rougher stuff not so much, but he did back off when I asked him to. I'm more worried about that slapping than anything. He doesn't scare me during sex, and that's the only thing I have been really unsure about. I guess we need to discuss some safe words. And I will definitely be telling him that I didn't like the slapping and not to do it again.

Again, thanks friend. I appreciate your help...and theirs.

 

[CutieMouse]

The post-coital slap to the face and panty stuff had nothing to do with sex or play. It was all about responding to teasing a fragile ego. If you get nothing out of his kink, not even a little bit, it might be best to chalk it up to sexual incompatibility and walk away.

Seriously?

Are you saying you've *never* had a teasing, joking, post-fuck moment of wrestling or physical teasing? She said it didn't hurt, which tells me it was what one might call a "teasing love tap".

I don't see abuse or incompatibility here. I see someone who knows some stuff turns her on, and knows enough to know she needs to proceed with a certain degree of awareness, but doesn't necessarily have the words or skills to do so.

My advice would be to speak up if something makes you uncomfortable, and as long as the lines of respect and communication are open, and you're happy with things, treat it like any other relationship.

Relationships are relationships - even the kinky ones.

 

[DVS]

Everyone is giving good advice, but I think she is so new to all of this that she doesn't know what is BDSM, D/s or rough sex and what might be abuse. And she might be worrying too much about some of this, if she enjoys what he's doing. wondering if what he's doing is normal is the wrong thing to be thinking about. There is no such thing as normal. Just like anybody else, he's an individual.

There are some things that would be considered in the lines of BDSM or D/s, but some of them could also be considered just rough sex, too. If he's said he's into BDSM or D/s, he should know about limits. She might not be aware of limits, but it's her job to figure out what her limits are and then pass them on to him. Both, hard and soft limits. Also, they should decide on a safe word system, such as the colors of a stop light (red, yellow and green). This would allow her to tell him he's being too rough without actually stopping the session. Biting too hard could be treated in the same way. If he's biting hard, she could say yellow, and he would know he needs to lighten up.

All of this is pretty basic for someone involved in BDSM play, but maybe she needs to know this, so she can better communicate her feelings to him, during their sex play. Right now, she might be so new that she's so confused and concerned about him being normal or abusive. Because of this, she could be giving him irregular responses so he's a little confused, too.

The sooner they get a system in place, the sooner she will be able to let him know without question when he's being too rough or hurting her. Being consistent with their communication is very important. With a system in place, she should be able to clearly express her limits and he shouldn't have any problem understanding her.

 

[Netzach]

Ok, seeing where she's coming from, I think two things are really important - be willing to get over your embarrassment if there is any about being explicit about when you ARE turned on and not turned on. Some people's body language is pretty opaque when they're processing sensations and you may find yourself in a "I don't know about this" place that looks EXACTLY like your happy place to the outside observer. If you know what you tend to do you can tell him what to look for that says "I'm in a little trouble here." That's IN ADDITION to a signal or communications system you both like - the stoplight is popular because it works pretty well, but if you're more comfortable just respecting "no REALLY fucking stop, I'm not kidding" that's pretty unambiguous.

Be very clear when something is working WELL for you. Both with yourself AND with your dude. It's immensely helpful to not have to guess and employ psychic powers with a new playmate, from his perspective.

"Yes please" is much better than just not resisting when you're all trying to figure one another the hell out. Definitely have signals and time set apart for post-game wrapups. "I don't know what I do and don't like" is a completely valid thing to explain to your partner in crime.

 

[Mr_Jon_Thon]

Seriously?

Are you saying you've *never* had a teasing, joking, post-fuck moment of wrestling or physical teasing? She said it didn't hurt, which tells me it was what one might call a "teasing love tap".

I don't see abuse or incompatibility here. I see someone who knows some stuff turns her on, and knows enough to know she needs to proceed with a certain degree of awareness, but doesn't necessarily have the words or skills to do so.

My advice would be to speak up if something makes you uncomfortable, and as long as the lines of respect and communication are open, and you're happy with things, treat it like any other relationship.

Relationships are relationships - even the kinky ones.

I didn’t think my post came across as jokingly. So yeah, I’m serious. I have no problem joking, teasing, and wrestling after sex, or during. But responding with a light slap to the face (to get her attention), a harder slap to the breast (to make sure she understood he was serious), and stuffing her panties in her mouth (to tell her to shut the fuck up) isn’t an unconscious act. It was a deliberate act preceded by the teasing. To me, it says his ego was dented and there is an underlying issue with him. I could be reading more into it. It’s been known to happen.

And from the OP’s last comment, it seems the issue has been answered to her friend’s satisfaction. I’m glad and wish her the best.

 

[blulilacgrl]

All of this is pretty basic for someone involved in BDSM play, but maybe she needs to know this, so she can better communicate her feelings to him, during their sex play. Right now, she might be so new that she's so confused and concerned about him being normal or abusive. Because of this, she could be giving him irregular responses so he's a little confused, too.

Yes! Before this relationship, I don't think she ever even contemplated rough sex let alone BDSM. So this is very very new and I can see how it can be a little frightening. I think it is one thing to be interested in it on your own but quite another to have someone introduce a concept that is completely foreign to you. This is why I posted her questions here. I am still feeling my own way around and didn't feel completely comfortable dispensing advice on the subject.

So again thank you guys so much for all of your help.

 

[Dyslexicea]

It seems to me your friend doesn't really want to know so much about our feelings as regards the BDSM aspect of her boyfriend but more so if we feel he's being abusive or could potentially be abusive. I don't see a yes or no answer, I could say there is a potential for abuse but that is possible in any relationship.

I've never been in an abusive relationship but I have had to deal with the effects of abusive relationships both professionally and personally and although those relationships have been only among lesbians, I don't believe there is any difference. In most cases the physical abuse is never evident early in a relationship. The mental abuse almost always happens first with the abuser trying to destroy the self esteem and self worth of the abused or seeking out someone who lacks both. If her boyfriend is doing so, coupled with his desire for rough sex, she does need to be very concerned. If she was my friend and this is the case I'd tell her to drop him like a hot potato.

I think it is wonderful she's willing to experiment sexually, even if it's only for his benefit but he also has to be willing to give her the kind of sex life she desires. If their sex life only revolves around his desires in the long run she's going to be a very unhappy person and most likely not very keen on having sex at all.

 

[subwannabe]

Maybe we should get out of the bedroom here and find out what the rest of her relationship is like. She is supposedly "over the moon" with this guy after just a short period of time but I wonder if her fascination with this guy lies soley on the bedroom aspect of their relationship because he has stirred up some feelings in her that she likes and are intense and she is stumbling along trying to sort these feelings out.

This could potentially be good or bad. It is possible that she likes and wants to experience these feelings but doesn't realize that she is with the wrong guy overall. I worry about his end game motivations. He may view her as someone he wants to dominate his way and not really care about what she wants. He may be understanding and receptive to her worries in the beginning with the goal of eventually "training" or "breaking" her to his abusive desires. If so, he is only biding time until she is so hooked she can't get out. It is my opinion that she is too naive to understand that if this guy is really like that, she thinks that she will be able to just end the relationship if she sees it heading in that direction, and sometimes that is not the case. Some of these guys are experts at what they are doing and this guy is no rookie. On the other hand, this may all work out beautifully and he is in tune with not crossing over her lines. But, I think she really needs to understand that if this guy has ulterior motives she may not be able to get out when she wants.

If she could totally ignore the sexual aspect of their relationship, how does she feel about him?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you guys so much. Your responses have been very insightful. Just got this

Thanks for helping me out....some of the responses are very helpful.

I'm not stupid, but definitely soooooooo naive! Lol! I guess I'm just pretty ignorant...it's hard to set limits when I don't know what I like yet, beyond what I know for sure, you know? I did enjoy it, no doubt...some of the rougher stuff not so much, but he did back off when I asked him to. I'm more worried about that slapping than anything. He doesn't scare me during sex, and that's the only thing I have been really unsure about. I guess we need to discuss some safe words. And I will definitely be telling him that I didn't like the slapping and not to do it again.

Again, thanks friend. I appreciate your help...and theirs.

Sounds like she's going to be okay.