New Idea (Sort Of)

[RogueLurker]

Careful, Rogue,

Mr Perfect will edit your post and say you don't have any credentials either. You have a few 'you're' that should have been your.

I have no credentials and I don't edit anymore ... and you should see me spell when I'm really grumpy. Damn spell checkers made me lazy.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I have no credentials and I don't edit anymore ... and you should see me spell when I'm really grumpy. Damn spell checkers made me lazy.

You don't edit anymore??????? How come??? Shit, Lit has lost another great editor then.

 

[sr71plt]

and you opened the door to talk about the audacity of sending edits without the proper credentials - and it appears to be a common tangent on this Forum these days.

Actually, no. The thrust of my comment was completely on the audacity of sending unsolicited edits at all. Thus, I agree completely with your last posting and also with your next paragraph here.

I wouldn't recommend randomly sending out edits - the reaction from the author would probably not merit the time and energy put into a full blown edit (at least not the time and energy I used to put into them). Sending a brief private feedback to point out an issue or two, constructively, may serve as an introduction and if the author is willing, may start up a conversation where a full edit is requested.

But I will go so far as to say, which apparently is in disagreement with some others here, that sending an unsolicited edit would be that act of pompousity that Lady C. talks about here and that I think the author would be fully justified in telling anyone who sent one to take a flying youknowwhat.

Volunteering to help would be fine, IMO, but, as a writer, I'd then start asking about their demonstrated ability to help rather than hinder my writing.

 

[sr71plt]

Careful, Rogue,

Mr Perfect will edit your post and say you don't have any credentials either. You have a few 'you're' that should have been your.

You continue to attack me without provocation, Lady Cibelle. I have shown no inclination to edit anyone else's posts, certainly not Roguelurkers here. I ask you again to stop this personal attacking and to try to keep to the substance of the topic. This is not proper behavior of a "moderator." No one else here is attacking anyone else personally. I'm trying to have an adult discussion of an interesting and important topic.

(Incidentally, I make the your/you're and its/it's mistake too. We all do. Sometimes I go back and fix it when I see it and sometimes I don't. Those who make a big deal of it just want to fight--or play the shell game with topics that make them uncomfortable.)

 

[LadyCibelle]

You continue to attack me without provocation, Lady Cibelle. I have shown no inclination to edit anyone else's posts, certainly not Roguelurkers here. I ask you again to stop this personal attacking and to try to keep to the substance of the topic. This is not proper behavior of a "moderator." No one else here is attacking anyone else personally. I'm trying to have an adult discussion of an interesting and important topic.

Bullshit wrapped in golden paper!!!! What you are doing, not very subtly if you want my advice, is putting down everyone and everything that doesn't agree with your sacrosanct delusion of grandeur.

I don't need you to tell me what my behavior as a moderator should be. You don't know the first thing about me, so don't try to act all innocent.

 

[RogueLurker]

Actually, no. The thrust of my comment was completely on the audacity of sending unsolicited edits at all. Thus, I agree completely with your last posting and also with your next paragraph here.



But I will go so far as to say, which apparently is in disagreement with some others here, that sending an unsolicited edit would be that act of pompousity that Lady C. talks about here and that I think the author would be fully justified in telling anyone who sent one to take a flying youknowwhat.

Volunteering to help would be fine, IMO, but, as a writer, I'd then start asking about their demonstrated ability to help rather than hinder my writing.

Pomposity is a loaded term - there may be some who would do it with the best intention, not out of vanity. And any author is well within their rights to accept or reject an unsolicted edit - in whatever terms they feel appropriate.

For me, communcication between the editor and the author are key - and its up to both how much "schooling" and credentials they think is necessary. Finding someone you can trust and work with may be more important to some authors than whether they have a degree or relevant real life experience. BTW, I do have a university education and I do edit technical and project documents as part of my job - but that didn't make me a good editor for Lit authors, I suspect that my patience, honesty and willingness to try to explain "why" was what people liked.

 

[RogueLurker]

You don't edit anymore??????? How come??? Shit, Lit has lost another great editor then.

Lost my groove, I suppose. Burned out and fed up.

 

[sr71plt]

Pomposity is a loaded term

I quite agree. Not one that I would introduce into a discussion unless I wanted to fight.

And, yep, I agree with the rest of what you say too. Many of the topped-paid New York editors picked up their credentials on the job--and are quite good at what they do.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think the unsolicited edits would indeed be likely to upset people. It's a shame, because I love the spirit in which the service was offered - that of doing a random kind act for the joy of it. But perhaps all is not lost. I can think of two random kind acts that would be universally appreciated by Lit posters. First and forement, go to the Story Discussion Circle and do some editing and feedback on any story posted for discussion; those people definitely want it! Secondly, as an alternative, flip through the recent postings, find one that you actually do like, and vote and post feedback on it saying what you liked about it. I promise you that that will spread the joy and good will you're looking for.

The difficulty with random free editing is that - and it still feels very odd to me to say this, but I do understand that it's true - not everyone posting stories to Literotica aspires to improve his or her writing. Many posters just want editors to help them get over any obstacles to getting their stories posted; once the stories are posted, they are happy. To have further editing offered might well seem to them like someone trying unfairly to create more challenges to a story that they don't want challenged.

Many writers post to Lit simply to be heard, to enjoy seeing their stories in public, and to receive some encouragement. That's a stage that I think all writers go through, and their needs at that point at real. When they post a story, they're mostly saying, "Please tell me that I'm doing something worth while when I write" or "Please tell me that my ideas are interesting / exciting / acceptable to express / shared by others." They need to spend a little time at that stage and fulfill those needs before they might be able to go on to setting new goals, like improving the style in which they express their ideas. If you offer them additional editing when they're at that stage, they're likely to feel hurt - not because the editing wouldn't improve the story, but because they were really looking for encouragement and you offered something else.

If, on the other hand, you let such an author know that you read his story and liked his story, you'll be genuinely pleasing him. The helpful thing here is that you'll also please pretty much any author; we're a vain lot.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I think the unsolicited edits would indeed be likely to upset people. It's a shame, because I love the spirit in which the service was offered - that of doing a random kind act for the joy of it. But perhaps all is not lost. I can think of two random kind acts that would be universally appreciated by Lit posters. First and forement, go to the Story Discussion Circle and do some editing and feedback on any story posted for discussion; those people definitely want it! Secondly, as an alternative, flip through the recent postings, find one that you actually do like, and vote and post feedback on it saying what you liked about it. I promise you that that will spread the joy and good will you're looking for.

The difficulty with random free editing is that - and it still feels very odd to me to say this, but I do understand that it's true - not everyone posting stories to Literotica aspires to improve his or her writing. Many posters just want editors to help them get over any obstacles to getting their stories posted; once the stories are posted, they are happy. To have further editing offered might well seem to them like someone trying unfairly to create more challenges to a story that they don't want challenged.

Many writers post to Lit simply to be heard, to enjoy seeing their stories in public, and to receive some encouragement. That's a stage that I think all writers go through, and their needs at that point at real. When they post a story, they're mostly saying, "Please tell me that I'm doing something worth while when I write" or "Please tell me that my ideas are interesting / exciting / acceptable to express / shared by others." They need to spend a little time at that stage and fulfill those needs before they might be able to go on to setting new goals, like improving the style in which they express their ideas. If you offer them additional editing when they're at that stage, they're likely to feel hurt - not because the editing wouldn't improve the story, but because they were really looking for encouragement and you offered something else.

If, on the other hand, you let such an author know that you read his story and liked his story, you'll be genuinely pleasing him. The helpful thing here is that you'll also please pretty much any author; we're a vain lot.

*Hand Horsie some sugar cubes.*

I agree with everything you've just said....with one caveat if you allow. Those authors that only want to see their story into print are not really writers. True writers will appreciate and welcome all the help they can get; it doesn't mean they're gonna agree with every Tom, Dick or Harry that tells them something is wrong with their story but they'll carefully examine every 'comment' before deeming them shit or not. That, in my book, is the true difference between a serious writer and one who only plays at it.

 

[DeeZire]

What you are doing, not very subtly if you want my advice, is putting down everyone and everything that doesn't agree with your sacrosanct delusion of grandeur.

(Quote above addressed to Mr SR)

Can I just interject a thought here? We all have things we believe in - to the point of annoying other people. With Ami it's - well, it's everything repulsive, with me it's copyright protection. I got all asshole-ish about illegal downloading in a thread recently, but didn't realize it until my provacative comments put the issue in perspective.
It's obvious Mr SR believes in himself as an editor, and it's understandable that he would want to defend his beliefs (which is what he was doing in the infamous 'OK' thread). I think if we could all learn to recognize each other's 'sacred ground' if you will, we could all find a more harmonious way to interact with each other.

 

[LadyCibelle]

(Quote above addressed to Mr SR)

Can I just interject a thought here? We all have things we believe in - to the point of annoying other people. With Ami it's - well, it's everything repulsive, with me it's copyright protection. I got all asshole-ish about illegal downloading in a thread recently, but didn't realize it until my provacative comments put the issue in perspective.
It's obvious Mr SR believes in himself as an editor, and it's understandable that he would want to defend his beliefs (which is what he was doing in the infamous 'OK' thread). I think if we could all learn to recognize each other's 'sacred ground' if you will, we could all find a more harmonious way to interact with each other.

Dee, Can I call you Dee?

I agree with you, we all have things we hold in the highest regard and I have nothing against it. My problem is when you (not you as an individual) put down everyone who doesn't agree with you; that's what sr is doing and that's what I'm pointing out each and every time.

I've said it plenty enough, he might even have good points and good things to say but the way he's going about getting his point across is pompous, self-important and he has no qualms putting someone down to achieve his 'effect'. I don't disagree with everything he says, just with the way he's going at it.

Furthermore, for him it's not enough to agree with him; we'd all have to bow to his superiority....and forgive me, but I don't want to be forced to bow down to someone, I want to do it on my own terms and because said person deserves my respect and admiration, not because HE said so!

 

[DeeZire]

Lady C - I see your point. I was just being a wuss. (And feeling guilty about the music thread.) Being a relative newcomer here, I have discovered there is a learning curve associated with creative posting, and I was hoping maybe that might have been a factor in this situation. No biggie.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Lady C - I see your point. I was just being a wuss. (And feeling guilty about the music thread.) Being a relative newcomer here, I have discovered there is a learning curve associated with creative posting, and I was hoping maybe that might have been a factor in this situation. No biggie.

Tsk tsk tsk....you should never call yourself a wuss or put yourself down for everyone to see. Some people might take advantage of it, therefore taking advantage of you.

Furthermore, you aren't a wuss because you tried to cool tempers; that's the sign of a mature person.

 

[DeeZire]

that's the sign of a mature person

That and an AARP card will get you 20 percent off at Denny's. I am one lucky son-of-a-gun.

 

[LadyCibelle]

That and an AARP card will get you 20 percent off at Denny's. I am one lucky son-of-a-gun.

Hey a 20 percent discount a Denny's is not something to spit on!

 

[DeeZire]

Hey a 20 percent discount a Denny's is not something to spit on!

I think that depends on the mood of the kitchen staff.

 

[Guest]

That and an AARP card will get you 20 percent off at Denny's. I am one lucky son-of-a-gun.

Just spit out my tea.

 

[BlackShanglan]

*Hand Horsie some sugar cubes.*

I agree with everything you've just said....with one caveat if you allow. Those authors that only want to see their story into print are not really writers. True writers will appreciate and welcome all the help they can get; it doesn't mean they're gonna agree with every Tom, Dick or Harry that tells them something is wrong with their story but they'll carefully examine every 'comment' before deeming them shit or not. That, in my book, is the true difference between a serious writer and one who only plays at it.

Yep. Wholly with you on that one. Some of them just want to be authors; why toss pearls before swine, or indeed sugarcubes to jackasses?

*pauses*

*munches sugar cubes slowly*

Well ... sometimes they do appreciate them.

 

[palisa]

Fight! Fight!

This is too good a thread not to jump into.

I agree -- sending out unsolicited edits is not a good idea. It's wasted work, for the most part. If someone wanted an editor, no matter how much his stories needed editing, he would have found one in advance.

SR, I agree that everyone needs an editor. I'm not going to tout my qualifications, but your "Dancing for Each Other" had five clear-cut problems in the first four grafs and a few other debatable points, found on one quick read.

One thing I've learned from my professional editing is humility. Writers cannot edit their own work effectively, and editors -- even multiple editors working on the same prose -- look at things in print and wonder how he/they missed earlier what is so clearly seen later.

Backward, turn backward
O time in thy flight.
I've thought of an edit
I needed last night.

 

[adetaildiva]

retraction

A proofer: Technically should only compare new (live) copy to an earlier version (dead) copy and point out the differences for someone else to decide whether to stick with the live copy version.

A line editor: Very basic spelling, grammar, and punctuation fix suggestions.

A copyeditor: Line editing plus contextual work, suggestions on the flow and consistency and basic structure, fact checking.

A development editor: Major overhaul and restructuring/addition/deletion suggestions on top of copyediting.

Publishing houses usually expect their book editors to be copyeditors; agents or publishing house acquisitions editors often serve as development editors (while usually zipping past the line edit chores, leaving those to someone else). Authors looking for a private edit often advertise for a proofer, when what they really need/expect is at least a copyeditor.

I swore I wasn't going to draw attention to myself but here I go. I'm not a professional editor so I wasn't aware of the delineation of editing. But, in looking over these definitions, it seems to me that most VE's here do some combination of all of these. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know.

Thanks, LadyC, for caring enough to gently steer me away from what could have been a trainwreck of good intentions. I'll now formally retract my earlier decision to offer unsolicited editing. In my own defense, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

And, thanks, Sr71plt, for the brief education about editors.

 

[sr71plt]

Dee, Can I call you Dee?

I agree with you, we all have things we hold in the highest regard and I have nothing against it. My problem is when you (not you as an individual) put down everyone who doesn't agree with you; that's what sr is doing and that's what I'm pointing out each and every time.

I've said it plenty enough, he might even have good points and good things to say but the way he's going about getting his point across is pompous, self-important and he has no qualms putting someone down to achieve his 'effect'. I don't disagree with everything he says, just with the way he's going at it.

Furthermore, for him it's not enough to agree with him; we'd all have to bow to his superiority....and forgive me, but I don't want to be forced to bow down to someone, I want to do it on my own terms and because said person deserves my respect and admiration, not because HE said so!

This, of course, is just the continuation of personal attack--part of a shell game based in Lady C's fear of the topic discussion. I've been quite agreeable with a whole bunch of postings on this thread. Nor have I asserted any claim of superiority here. I've never once claimed that anyone posting here didn't have the experience necessary to help other writers here--or that I was above being edited (I covered this in my very first posting). That's all part of Lady C's blatant character assassination. It goes along with her asserting positions to me on this thread that I haven't taken.

Once again, I ask that she stop the personal attacks and contribute to the discussion. She's posted nothing on what's actually under discussion on this thread--she's just attacked me personally.

Lady C. is the one wanting me to bow to her superiority--and, like her, I won't do it. She's one lousy "moderator."

 

[LadyCibelle]

Whining, whining, whining.....would you like some cheese too?

Once again, I ask that she stop the personal attacks and contribute to the discussion. She's (LadyC) posted nothing on what's actually under discussion on this thread--she's just attacked me personally.


Time to stop whining. "

Hmmm yeah you're right, I didn't contribute anything to the discussion....:

Diva,

I agree with you, sometimes we get the urge to do some unsolicited editing, and honestly I've indulged once or twice....but never again! You should see the amount of shit I got because I tried to be helpful to a writer who needed help. Some writers can't accept graciously given help and won't accept either that they need it; they think they're above all that and that if someone doesn't 'get' their story it's because that person is lacking.

I know you're old enough to do whatever you want but I'd hate to see you, or anyone else wanting to try, hurt because you tried to do a good deed.

Yep, experience on the matter is NOT contributing according to Mr Perfect!

 

[RogueLurker]

Just to be clear about something, SR71 - LadyC hasn't been responding as the moderator in this or any other thread that I've seen. I haven't seen any of your posts removed or altered by her.

She's been responding as a participant and frequent poster in the EF. As a Volunteer Editor, LadyC has a few years of experience in dealing with editing ups and downs on this site and is usually here to offer a shoulder or a laugh. She is a VE and has experiences and advice that she can share with anyone else that posts here.

As a moderator, she is responsible to remove spam or misdirected posts and in the event that some nastiness breaks out, she has the ability to remove the posts and/or thread. This is something that rarely happens - this forum is pretty quiet most of the time and when there is a dust up, everyone wakes up, looks around and settles in to watch the fireworks. I don't know that I've ever seen a serious poster's stuff removed (I've seen ads for penis pictures disappear, but not legitimate posts).

There is a line between participant and moderator and I don't see her crossing it. LadyC has garnered a fair bit of respect on this Forum, but not because anyone is afraid of her moderator powers - her temper may be reknowned but she plays fair in a forum discussion.

If you feel that she is personally attacking you, she is doing so as a particpant in this forum, not as the moderator. If she were picking on you as a moderator, your posts would disappear.

 

[sr71plt]

Hmmm yeah you're right, I didn't contribute anything to the discussion....:



Yep, experience on the matter is NOT contributing according to Mr Perfect!

Oh, sorry, right. You contributed that early on. And then after I posted an opinion, you stopped contributing to the discussion and started namecalling and personal attack (being the first poster to do so).

Would be happy to see you get back on point on the thread discussion. Think you can start being a moderator and do that? Thanks.