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New Mistress needs advice


//So the only advice I can offer is to try to find out what his particular turn-ons are. Pain? Humiliation? Feminization? Denial? It might be any of those or others, in any combinations.//

Wait a min., who's serving who, here? Unless you plan to be a pro working for hard cash, I don't think these issues are central.
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Errr... I'd suggest that the desires of both parties in any relationship - be that a relationship that lasts 30 minutes or 30 years, vanilla or kinked-in-extreme - are pretty central to the success of that relationship!

If a dom/me doesn't act with consideration for the limits of the sub then s/he isn't using but *ab*using the sub. (General point: the dom/me has the right to do to the sub absolutely anything... that the sub wants!)

If the dom/me isn't trying to create something that both will enjoy then s/he's just plain selfish. (Can't remember where I heard it but the phrase "He isn't a Dom - he's just a jerk!" has always stuck in my mind.)

Just a thought.
 
Hi Ark,

Your thoughts are well put, even if from the other side of the fence.

Ark said,

Errr... I'd suggest that the desires of both parties in any relationship - be that a relationship that lasts 30 minutes or 30 years, vanilla or kinked-in-extreme - are pretty central to the success of that relationship!

If a dom/me doesn't act with consideration for the limits of the sub then s/he isn't using but *ab*using the sub. (General point: the dom/me has the right to do to the sub absolutely anything... that the sub wants!)

If the dom/me isn't trying to create something that both will enjoy then s/he's just plain selfish. (Can't remember where I heard it but the phrase "He isn't a Dom - he's just a jerk!" has always stuck in my mind.)

Well, there are two schools of thought, at least, here. If you want a 'bdsm' relationship run according to Dr. Phil, and all the fine "relationship manuals" that exist, that's fine. I see nothing wrong with what are essentially 'romantic partnerships' with a dash of kink. (This essentially is a claim that SM relationships are of a piece with, for example, ordinary Anglican marriages, and the Brownings' union; it's just a matter of sex-related practices, Act A [straight fuck], compared with Act B [bumfuck], as in straight and gay.)

I see no reason, though, to say that one, said, equal partner is exercising control or direction over the other; it's mutual. Indeed it's typical of 'partnership' to disavow 'power over another' as an issue, feature, or item.

As to a couple of your statements, they're true, but not the way you mean them:

If a dom/me doesn't act with consideration for the limits of the sub then s/he isn't using but *ab*using the sub.

It depends what you mean by 'consideration'; i.e., following and adhering to, or 'taking note of'.

As to 'abuse', it's bandied about for whatever anyone doesn't like; indeed 'vanilla' people call serious whipping, 'abuse.' I consider the issue of illegal acts, the key one. The top should not set him/herself up to be prosecuted. But if one chooses to 'abuse' the other by calling them a slut and dumping a glass of pee over their head, that's another matter (taking an example most would call 'abuse').

If the dom/me isn't trying to create something that both will enjoy then s/he's just plain selfish.

Bang! You hit that nail on the head. If you can't go after what you want at someone's expense you're hardly 'dominating' them.
If there are 'equal rights' to enjoy, its a romantic or sexual (quid pro quo) partnership, with no particular connection with SM.**

Those who blanche at the term 'selfish' should leave talk of 'power' 'domination' 'submission' 'control' etc. aside, and enjoy the hand in hand walks in the sunset.

Oh, and 'selfish' does not mean boorish, unstable, or immature or 'jerkish'.

Anyway, that's how things look from this side of the fence, and there's absolutely no reason you or the 'gentle dom/me' folks should agree.
----

**I'm speaking of 'classic' SM as in Sade.
 
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But, if the bottom's taste are, as you say, to be used for 'leverage,' that is a different matter than simple indulgence, or indulgence expecting return indulgence.

To take an example, oak, finding that pain is a turn on, inflicts it to help this bottom guy come, and (supposedly) this makes him was to hang around. She kinda likes the whipping (let's suppose) so she's gotten her 'complementary kink' satisfied.

I call this a sort of mutal fetish scene, like where one is the dr., and the other the patient.

OTOH, if she inflicts pain so he gets it up and has to shove it into a piece of raw liver one of his male friends is holding, that is indeed 'leverage' as well as control of the scene. Alternatively, once 'up', he's to fuck his sister.

The point then is to use the 'kinks'--sources of pleasure-- to one's own ends. If that's what you means by using 'chocolate' we're on the same page. I have no idea if this is 'seduction by consent', or if it's, in my phrase, 'control achieved through access to the levers of pain and pleasure.'
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I'm going out on a limb here, I really am. But I am going to venture that most women's ends in a relationship have to do with cementing devotion and sexual desire/ensnarement and not the voyeuristic delights of sisterfucking.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I personally don't use the extremity of the activities in question as a yardstick for "real D/s" versus mutually enjoyed naughtiness.

My ends could be very fucking boring, like "I want the floor scrubbed." It doesn't get more mundane than that.

If the dom/me isn't trying to create something that both will enjoy then s/he's just plain selfish.
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I'd say amend that to read "stupid."

Selfish is fine, but really becomes a barrier to any kind of relationship if taken too far. You have to be attuned to needs and direction. Beating someone and berating someone constantly who does not enjoy that beating and beratement or enjoy their state of slavery/subjugation - well that is the thin line between Leather and abuse. I don't mean enjoy as in "whee we're going to the zoo now" but I mean enjoyment in the sense of finding fulfillment, balance, belonging, peace, and a sense of place.

If I dump piss over the heads of people who don't like it or don't feel invested in me enough to accept it, I'd better not invest myself in them sticking around, bottom line.
 
//Selfish is fine, but really becomes a barrier to any kind of relationship if taken too far.//

Yes, you can put it that way. Selfishness isn't boorishness or stupidity.

There are, of course, self involved narcissists without a smidgeon of flair and creativity who are very off putting.

But if we assume a majority of people are selfish, it would appear that that (ordinary) degree, at least, is generally not a barrier to 'relationship' of some sort. (Because most people end up married or in partnership for some nontrivial part of their lives.)

Indeed, some 'selfish' people are magnetic, and attract followers and sex partners like flies.

I don't think we are oceans apart, since I'm most objecting to an approach (how may I meet your needs, my beloved bottom), than calling for abrasive actions. By no means do I think politeness, kindness, etc., are on some 'forbidden to dom/mes' list, and that dom/me equals snarling beast or temper-tantruming two year old.
 
Sitting here trying to work out what what fence I'm supposed to be on some side or other of :confused:

Anyway - I was being quite precise using the word abuse. Ab-use - bad use, use gone awry - as opposed to good-use :)

Slightly bemused by the idea that a dom who wants their sub to have a truly earthshattering time is somehow week or soppy... or how the sub would have such a great time if activities weren't based on the sub's yearnings/hopes/fears/etc.
 
I choose My subs and slaves by our mutual kinks. That being said I play hard and for My own satisfaction...yes I know that My toys will enjoy the play, control and dynamics because I know that our kinks match at least 75% of the time. Knowing that the kinks match 75% of the time does not mean that most of the time My type of Domination will be the most pleasing type for them.

Their devotion deepens *because* I Dominate for My pleasure. *Because* I do not serve their needs...but then as all that know Me here at Lit are aware...BDSM...D/s is not about the relationship/love for Me and Mine...it is about Domination and submission. So no it is not about equality of pleasure but it is about respect.

I suspect that the right formula for this lifestyle or playstyle is so individual that it is not likely a formula could be created that would serve all.
 
Ark, a 'fence' is just a metaphor, perhaps making things too black and white. Let's just say there's a dimension (of relationship) that ranges from mutuality/equality [call this a +10] to what you can 'selfishness' and 'abuse' [call this a -10], i.e., one person (top) having some significant distinct needs, and--as far as it suits the top-- clearly putting those needs ahead of the other whenever there's conflict (which there is not, all the time). For instance, even in the extreme (and perhaps very 'selfish'/'abusive' case), to torture another for your enjoyment, you must at least keep them alive, and it's not a bad idea to keep them healthy!).

Of course, this oversimplifies, since (undergoing) 'abuse' may be pervsersely fulfilling for some. In SD's words,

SD: Their [sub's] devotion deepens *because* I Dominate for My pleasure. *Because* I do not serve their needs...

I'm simply using SD's posting--telling you the way I read it-- as an example to clarify. I'm not speaking for her, in any way.

If you read SD's posting, for instance, *as I interpret it*--it's clear that she's toward the second 'selfish' end:

SD: Knowing that the kinks match 75% of the time does not mean that most of the time My type of Domination will be the most pleasing type for them.

IOW (as I would put it) she's not averse to pleasing herself most of the time (but acknowledging overlapping tastes). FTSOA, let's say, in my view, she's about -6. Perhaps she'd choose a different number. That's fine, but perhaps you see my point.

Remember, of course, that this number is purely descriptive. The number -10 is not "better", although I would make the case that at +10 there is not much in the way of 'power' or 'commanding' (which may be fine, for some).

IOW, again agreeing with what she says (as I understand it), it will be up to each pair to situate themselves. There is no universal 'right' place to be. That said, I find the label 'egalitarian romantic pair' (with or without kink) to be the notion that likely describes the (+7) - (+10) duos.

---
PS. Considering I don't know you, and that I'm going by just a few posted words, I'd say you're somewhere (+5)- (+10)
 
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Pure

Please be so kind as to give us the number that you would use to discribe yourself and why.

Pure said:
Ark, a 'fence' is just a metaphor, perhaps making things too black and white. Let's just say there's a dimension (of relationship) that ranges from mutuality/equality [call this a +10] to what you can 'selfishness' and 'abuse' [call this a -10], i.e., one person (top) having some significant distinct needs, and--as far as it suits the top-- clearly putting those needs ahead of the other whenever there's conflict (which there is not, all the time). For instance, even in the extreme (and perhaps very 'selfish'/'abusive' case), to torture another for your enjoyment, you must at least keep them alive, and it's not a bad idea to keep them healthy!).

Of course, this oversimplifies, since (undergoing) 'abuse' may be pervsersely fulfilling for some. In SD's words,

SD: Their [sub's] devotion deepens *because* I Dominate for My pleasure. *Because* I do not serve their needs...

I'm simply using SD's posting--telling you the way I read it-- as an example to clarify. I'm not speaking for her, in any way.

If you read SD's posting, for instance, *as I interpret it*--it's clear that she's toward the second 'selfish' end:

SD: Knowing that the kinks match 75% of the time does not mean that most of the time My type of Domination will be the most pleasing type for them.

IOW (as I would put it) she's not averse to pleasing herself most of the time (but acknowledging overlapping tastes). FTSOA, let's say, in my view, she's about -6. Perhaps she'd choose a different number. That's fine, but perhaps you see my point.

Remember, of course, that this number is purely descriptive. The number -10 is not "better", although I would make the case that at +10 there is not much in the way of 'power' or 'commanding' (which may be fine, for some).

IOW, again agreeing with what she says (as I understand it), it will be up to each pair to situate themselves. There is no universal 'right' place to be. That said, I find the label 'egalitarian romantic pair' (with or without kink) to be the notion that likely describes the (+7) - (+10) duos.

---
PS. Considering I don't know you, and that I'm going by just a few posted words, I'd say you're somewhere (+5)- (+10)
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pagan switch said:
<hijacks thread> Hey, Shadowsdrea, how ya been? :)</hijacks thread>
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Busily wonderful - deep in the BDSM community 7 days a week...and you?

~~smile~~
 
I recently got very busy. Husband is owrking overtime, so we decided I needed to get an online sub. So I got one. I've claimed ownership (online anyway), but we're still negotiating our kinks right now. :cool:
 
Considering I don't know you, and that I'm going by just a few posted words, I'd say you're somewhere (+5)- (+10)
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LOL - I've been rated at +10 at something! Bemused - but since it sounds like A+ I won't grumble. :)
 
Well, this thread sure has turned philisophical in a big hurry ... but I do thank everyone for the practical ideas posted (and PM'd).

~ Oak
 
hi oak,

excuse the digressions, but you do see some diffs in the *type* of suggestions. (suggesting basic diffs of approach/philosophy).

myself, I say, if exercizing control is an issue, find your pleasure, and *use his, insofar as it suits, and to bolster the differential.

if you simply want the common dream of a partner who loves you like crazy and no one else, that's achieved (insofar as possible, see below) by various traditional withholding and rationaing strategies that aren't esp. SM in my opinion.

let me leave you with one thought. many men are far from the devotee you want and are closer to sluts**. so if it were me, i'd first use your advantage to bring him up to his eyesballs in his own sluttiness; its degradation, and then its consequences. let him be turned on (and come) by the most inappropriate and even disgusting 'objects' (persons); use representations where the real thing cant be present; like a picture or story of a schoolgirl. and after each sluttish orgasm, let him attend to maintenance of your asshole till his tendecies abate.

only by *passing through* his degraded tendencies could he arrive at the postition you want him in, with suitably purified character.

-------

** what do I mean by (male) slut: that commonplace person whose cock sprouts up hard in a variety and multidude of situations, ready to use, and in many situations--esp. where a 'quickie' is possible--IS used.

Such responsiveness is a tremendous source of *power over* the male if used knowingly. These males proximity to degradation renders 'pushing' them further into its core, rather simple.
 
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SD: Why?

I assumed you read it. If not I'll PM it to you.

Privacy.
 
Pure said:
SD: Why?

I assumed you read it. If not I'll PM it to you.

Privacy.
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I read it Pure but wonder still... why? Privacy? You delve so deeply into analizing the words and thoughts of others here yet delete what says something about YOU?
 
I've always assumed that it's up to each person how much biography s/he posts on the 'net. Accordingly, I don't ask anyone (in public threads) to post biographical material.
 
Oakdew said:
Well, this thread sure has turned philisophical in a big hurry ... but I do thank everyone for the practical ideas posted (and PM'd).

~ Oak
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Well I admit I am pretty confused in this thread.
I understood the beginning ..Oak wishes to ensure he stays without his mind wandering of on thought for others :D
As a sub I worry He will find a 'better' sub/slave. So I understand your wish Oak.
Then in the middle I 'almost' posted as I had 'almost' understood what was happening.
Then Pure introduced numbers. At that point I lost it all
*sigh*

I hate numbers

Seeing Shadowsdream was worth sticking with it though.
{Slight hijack} You look so innocent in your current Av, hardly scarey at all; then you have to remind us just how strict you can be.

I hate being confused first by the thread and then Shadowsdream :confused::(
 
Sorry about the numbers, but the point was not that complicated.

I said there were two kinds of approaches to BDSM (and gray areas between. One approach is based on equality and mutuality. The people are equal partners, dedicated equally to the other's pleasure and well being.

The other extreme is an approach based on one partner putting his/her interests ("selfishly") ahead of the other, whenever s/he pleases (possibly all the time). This doesn't include killing the other, since you want to keep them around to torture, if that's the plan. This doesn't mean the other is allowed no pleasures, but only as part of a program to subordinate and/or demean them. As I said, he can be directed to fuck a canteloupe every morning, if that would have the desired 'training' effect.

So my 'advice' or idea for oak, was that IF SHES SO INCLINED, she should put herself and her pleasures first. That's my personal preference. Allow his pleasures (orgasms) only when it enhances his degradation, as for instance, making him hard in disgusting situations.

IT seemed to me that Shadowsdream was (likewise) somewhat leaning toward the 'selfish' end of the dimension
 
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