New (to Literotica) Writer

[sr71plt]

Visions of millions of buyers/readers of the book and views of the movie of 50 Shades of Grey flipping the bird in unison to self-appointed BDSM clubbists trying to self-appoint themselves as the arbiters of what the age-old acts of bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism can be and can't be either in fiction, in movies, or even in real life. And all the time they are huffing and puffing over what is correct and what isn't, they fail to appreciate that 50 Shades of Grey gave them opportunities they didn't have before when they were just small backwaters of screwed up people. Well, they probably still are that.

 

[lovecraft68]

And here we have the heart of the problem. The BDSM community thinks they're the only ones who know what true BDSM is, and they've taken it upon themselves to educate the uninformed. It's not that I wrote a story that contained elements of many genres, it's that I was confused.

Godspeed, you self-appointed arbiters. Godspeed.

Whoa...are you alting?

Because....AwkwardMD commented on your story blasting the naysayers.

And that's quite the point....the BDSM community thinks they know BDSM....repeat that and here those words....jeez next thing you know lawyers will tell you they know the law!

But regardless I always say our stories are our babies done our way. If you wrote your story the way you wanted to that's fine.

As for the BDSM community there is a lot of factions and some 'live and let live" and some are adamant about certain things its a lifestyle and therefore people get touchy about their personal preferences...

But again I will repeat my comments and opinion is not trying to dictate what BDSM is or isn't because its many things to many people

But consent is without debate. There is choking and hitting (for some) and rape play, but always with consent beforehand.

The story showed zero consent, therefore it is not BDSM. The beating you're taking proves that, unless of course no on in the BDSM section knows BDSM, only you....

I think the people who keep telling the BDSM community what they know and don't know are the ones who know nothing and can't admit it.

 

[sr71plt]

You don't need consent to tie someone up, which would be bondage because someone got tied up--with or without consent. A sadist most certainly doesn't need to have consent to perform an act of sadism on someone. Someone bigger than another and/or three steps ahead of them mentally can dominate them, with or without consent. Granted that masochism would include at least tacit consent. So, you could write a story and drop it into the BDSM category at Literotica for all of these except probably masochism as long as the BDSM element predominated and there wasn't a strong trump category going like Incest or GM.

I'm quite certain there are a whole lot of stories including bondage, at least, floating all over the categories at Literotica, including BDSM--and examples of domination too. And a healthy portion of them don't include consent, I'll bet--at least until the Lit. "work around" of the receiver eventually liking it is written in at the end of the story.

There are no rules/limits to what a story can be or emphasize.

I'll add that Nonconsent doesn't seem to be a trump category at Literotica. You can find nonconsent stories across the board, which "someone" constantly rants about.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Whoa...are you alting?

Because....AwkwardMD commented on your story blasting the naysayers.

And that's quite the point....the BDSM community thinks they know BDSM....repeat that and here those words....jeez next thing you know lawyers will tell you they know the law!

But regardless I always say our stories are our babies done our way. If you wrote your story the way you wanted to that's fine.

As for the BDSM community there is a lot of factions and some 'live and let live" and some are adamant about certain things its a lifestyle and therefore people get touchy about their personal preferences...

But again I will repeat my comments and opinion is not trying to dictate what BDSM is or isn't because its many things to many people

But consent is without debate. There is choking and hitting (for some) and rape play, but always with consent beforehand.

The story showed zero consent, therefore it is not BDSM. The beating you're taking proves that, unless of course no on in the BDSM section knows BDSM, only you....

I think the people who keep telling the BDSM community what they know and don't know are the ones who know nothing and can't admit it.

Never assume lawyers know the law, plenty don't, and many of the dummies are judges.

 

[robertreams]

That's what I said.

 

[lovecraft68]

Never assume lawyers know the law, plenty don't, and many of the dummies are judges.

Of course they know it....they have to to know how to break them...

 

[AwkwardMD]

Whoa...are you alting?

Because....AwkwardMD commented on your story blasting the naysayers.

And that's quite the point....the BDSM community thinks they know BDSM....repeat that and here those words....jeez next thing you know lawyers will tell you they know the law!

You are very annoying to debate. I was pretty clear in every post that I had experienced a similar problem with the BDSM readership.

Once again, you have misquoted someone and tried to take a stand on it. How you keep losing sight of the argument is beyond me. The BDSM community doesn't just think it knows what BDSM is; it thinks that it's kind is the only kind. I can live with "my BDSM is not your BDSM", but telling me that my fantasy isn't BDSM at all is just moronic and small minded.

 

[lovecraft68]

But you're right and everyone else is wrong is not moronic?

So to you...the 'swingers' don't know anything about swinging either, right?

You're butthurt you're being told you picked the wrong category and its other people's fault.

And all I have said is consent is the one 100% set in stone rule...and your story does not have that. Other than that I haven't said right wrong about anything.

 

[lovecraft68]

Safe, Sane, and Consensual are the guidelines for SSC. Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, Sadism/Masochism. Those are the defining qualities for BDSM. If you want an SSC section, petition Laurel. Nerfing an entire genre of erotica helps no one.

As a writer who has had more than half of my BDSM stories re-categorized behind my back, I can't agree more with sr71plt.

What a moron you are....

All of these things you list are of course part of BDSM and all need to be practiced "SSC" the SSC are the rules for everything in that list its not a separate lifestyle... because that is what you are saying...

BDSM and SSC are two different things

And for the record? The only person who can move your stories is Laurel and she moves what she feels does not fit the category.

I guess the site owner knows less than you as well.

I think I'll write an incest story and put a lesbian story smack dab in the middle of Gay male and tell the people there they don't know what Gay male sex is....

 

[AwkwardMD]

But you're right and everyone else is wrong is not moronic?

So to you...the 'swingers' don't know anything about swinging either, right?

You're butthurt you're being told you picked the wrong category and its other people's fault.

Ad Absurdum Reductio is a really amateur solution to not being able to keep up with someone elses logical argument. Why not just compare me to Hitler already?

I wrote a pony story. it's full of bondage, discipline, dominance, submission,and sadism. It's light on masochism,but otherwise it covers the bases. It also has non-con elements. I never denied that. However, I felt that the BDSM elements were more central to the narrative and that's how I categorized it.

I don't go around telling people theit fantasies are dumb or invalid. I'm arguing for a wider acceptance of different storytelling types.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Laurel had to read the story to approve it in BDSM in the first place. The script kept rejecting it for including Beastiality (which it did not). She moved it because too many people complained.

 

[lovecraft68]

Ad Absurdum Reductio is a really amateur solution to not being able to keep up with someone elses logical argument. Why not just compare me to Hitler already?

I wrote a pony story. it's full of bondage, discipline, dominance, submission,and sadism. It's light on masochism,but otherwise it covers the bases. It also has non-con elements. I never denied that. However, I felt that the BDSM elements were more central to the narrative and that's how I categorized it.

I don't go around telling people theit fantasies are dumb or invalid. I'm arguing for a wider acceptance of different storytelling types.

First off all replies of mine are directed at the OP....which Is why I saw you as an alt in your reply. I am addressing his story which is a kidnap rape scenario and not BDSM...

IF what you just listed is in your story then my answer is simply this and its not what I myself believe, but what I know of the site.

Any elements of non con will get it put there whatever else you have will take a back seat.

There are three trump categories here.

Incest
Non con
Gay male

These three of put anywhere outside of their "home" will get the author heat. The owner knows that and moves things where she feels it will cause less "controversy"

For instance femdom is very much part of BDSM...I think we can all agree there, but on lit? It goes into fetish...why?

because BDSM lit style seems to be more geared towards the endless trope of male dominance to the point female tops are seen as fetish...again not reality, but lit reality

MY advice to you and meant as advice, no snark at all is if you write another story with all those elements....try fetish.

 

[lovecraft68]

Its also worth noting that your comment about looking for more wider acceptance in stories and categories is wishful thinking.

This is brought up a lot....that there are things that might be better in their own category (bi sexual men is the biggest one that comes up) but it will never happen

Every fetish has sub fetishes and readers for all. There are people who love brother/sister incest, but are appalled at mother/son...but they are always going to be in the same category.

There is a lot of land mines on lit and the owner tries to put stories where she feels less people will bitch.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Its also worth noting that your comment about looking for more wider acceptance in stories and categories is wishful thinking.

This is brought up a lot....that there are things that might be better in their own category (bi sexual men is the biggest one that comes up) but it will never happen

Every fetish has sub fetishes and readers for all. There are people who love brother/sister incest, but are appalled at mother/son...but they are always going to be in the same category.

There is a lot of land mines on lit and the owner tries to put stories where she feels less people will bitch.

Now it feels like you agree with pretty much everything I've been saying in principle, if not necessarily within the context of the OPs story (he and I know each other from another site we post on).

Don't accept the status quo simply because it is. Fight back and be mad.

 

[lovecraft68]

Now it feels like you agree with pretty much everything I've been saying in principle, if not necessarily within the context of the OPs story (he and I know each other from another site we post on).

Don't accept the status quo simply because it is. Fight back and be mad.

People have as much as they can....we have started threads about new categories and another thing would be being able to put your story tags at the front of a story, not last page so the readers can more quickly see what your story is about and not feel "cheated" if there is something in it they don't like.

The site is not big on change or "customer service" they are number one by a landslide and need not put any effort in at all....

As for being on your side, again my only real point here is the OP story is a non con premise and not what will fly in BDSM here.

for pay I have books that mix a lot of kinks, here I am just basic and write to the category.

But I have one I put up in the contest in lesbian because that's what the sex is, but it has soem light BDSM tones to it and no non con, but there is reluctance. One girl is straight and the other secretly by so they talk about cock here and there

so the story is not doing as well as my other lesbian stories because of the added elements....

 

[Bramblethorn]

Three problems to parse here.

One, literally no one is arguing that a cruel story = BDSM. The argument is that a story that contains primarily BDSM elements should not be re-categorized merely because it contains a (perceived) lower common denominator.

Ah, I may have misunderstood here. From the discussion above I had the impression we were talking about a story where NC was the major theme, not one with a mix of consensual BDSM and nonconsensual stuff.

That said - story categorisation isn't just about word count. There's something of a hierarchy of categories here; in a story that encompasses several categories, things like NC, incest, and GM tend to trump others even when they might not be the biggest theme of the story.

Two, the inherent flaw in specific categorization is that no story could possibly appeal to all the readers "who want to read such stories", which kind of defeats the purpose.

I never said "all". But are you really arguing against the idea that NC themes will have a higher success rate among readers in the NC category?

Three, a comment I see the OP has gotten (that I've received as well) is "Would have been a 5 vote in Non-con, giving a 1 vote in BDSM". Clearly, the BDSM readership is frequented by people who like such stories, which further negates categorization at all.

No, it really doesn't.

I read both BDSM and NC. I can enjoy either type of story. But I approach the two of them in very different frames of mind. When I browse NC I disengage my ethical filters in preparation for a story about people being awful to one another; when I read BDSM I am looking for themes of consent and negotiation.

Reading a "BDSM" story that turns out actually to be NC is an unpleasant surprise to me - even if it's one that I would have enjoyed, had it been labelled correctly. Both because I'm not going to be in the right frame of mind for it, and because it's uncomfortable thinking that the author may not recognise nonconsent as nonconsent.

The "1 as BDSM" part of those comments you cite should make it clear that category DOES matter, even for somebody who's willing to read both cats.

Why this site has a tags system that you can't see until you're finished with the story, I'll never understand.

Well, we agree on that, at least

 

[sr71plt]

I don't agree that Nonconsent trumps as a category unless the reader is being pounded over the head with it. I think nonconsent, especially where "she discovered she liked it" occurs almost as an afterthought at the end, runs deep through all of the categories.

 

[AwkwardMD]

There's something of a hierarchy of categories here; in a story that encompasses several categories, things like NC, incest, and GM tend to trump others even when they might not be the biggest theme of the story.

That's ass backwards.

The author creates and the reader consumes. I'm not gonna go so far as to say the consumer should be thankful, but the consumer should not be the one deciding what is and isn't the most important part of a story. Frankly, I'm shocked that any writer would come here and argue against me on this. It's like (nearly) everyone has accepted that "this is the way it's always been done." Find your spines, people! Embrace the gay!!!

I never said "all". But are you really arguing against the idea that NC themes will have a higher success rate among readers in the NC category?

A high score is not the be-all end-all. Achieving that is awesome when it happens, but I write for different reasons than to boost my self-confidence.

No, it really doesn't.

I read both BDSM and NC. I can enjoy either type of story. But I approach the two of them in very different frames of mind. When I browse NC I disengage my ethical filters in preparation for a story about people being awful to one another; when I read BDSM I am looking for themes of consent and negotiation.

Reading a "BDSM" story that turns out actually to be NC is an unpleasant surprise to me - even if it's one that I would have enjoyed, had it been labelled correctly. Both because I'm not going to be in the right frame of mind for it, and because it's uncomfortable thinking that the author may not recognise nonconsent as nonconsent.

The "1 as BDSM" part of those comments you cite should make it clear that category DOES matter, even for somebody who's willing to read both cats.

See, to me, having to "turn off your ethical filters" translates as "I lie to myself about what I like". I know that's an oversimplification, and I only say that because you're not the first person to try and rationalize categorization that way.

I remember seeing Requiem for a Dream years ago, and hating it not because it was bad, but because I liked it even though it was horrible. That doesn't make Requiem for a Dream a bad movie, nor should it justify recategorizing it from a personal drama to horror.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Also, not recognizing non-consent as non-consent is bad storytelling. You can't fix bad storytelling by sticking it in a box with a red sticker on it that says "Beware". It will still be bad in the morning.

Lit has a perfectly good punishment system for bad writing that gets abused nine ways from sunday. Voting.

 

[Hypoxia]

That's ass backwards.

The author creates and the reader consumes. I'm not gonna go so far as to say the consumer should be thankful, but the consumer should not be the one deciding what is and isn't the most important part of a story. Frankly, I'm shocked that any writer would come here and argue against me on this.

I can write whatever I wish, create whatever story appeals to me. But just because *I* like it doesn't mean many readers will like it -- or maybe they will, but they won't tell me, and those who DON'T like it will be certain to notify me of their disapproval. As it happens, my most-read stories are also my most-voted and lowest-rated. Each reader who responds has decided what they do and don't think is important.

And guess what? HOW they respond means less to me than that they DO respond. I wrote something that provoked responses. I did my job -- I've AFFECTED readers. When I started writing at LIT, I had a goal: gain high votes. I've changed. Now I want views, and responses. So I judge what readers will think important, and I wriggle my fingers, ready to push some buttons. LOVE buttons, HATE, buttons, doesn't matter. It's like throwing bait to sharks. Ooh, what a nice feeding frenzy!

 

[AwkwardMD]

I can write whatever I wish, create whatever story appeals to me. But just because *I* like it doesn't mean many readers will like it -- or maybe they will, but they won't tell me, and those who DON'T like it will be certain to notify me of their disapproval. As it happens, my most-read stories are also my most-voted and lowest-rated. Each reader who responds has decided what they do and don't think is important.

And guess what? HOW they respond means less to me than that they DO respond. I wrote something that provoked responses. I did my job -- I've AFFECTED readers. When I started writing at LIT, I had a goal: gain high votes. I've changed. Now I want views, and responses. So I judge what readers will think important, and I wriggle my fingers, ready to push some buttons. LOVE buttons, HATE, buttons, doesn't matter. It's like throwing bait to sharks. Ooh, what a nice feeding frenzy!

There's a fine line between accepting that those who read your story will be interpret it according to their own likes/dislikes, and not caring when those readers take your story and redesignate it into the "gutter." (I don't personally think of Non-Con as gutter writing, but the attitude of the people who want my stuff out leads me to believe that's how they see it).

/highfive for button pushing though!

 

[AwkwardMD]

I may be sore about having my stories moved, but I can handle that. DD (the OP) is a good writer, and it infuriated me to see him getting the same closed-mindedness over story content that I had. Somehow, seeing it happen to him was much worse, and I pretty well derailed this.

Didn't want to make this about me, so I'll just go back to my bridge now.

 

[lovecraft68]

I may be sore about having my stories moved, but I can handle that. DD (the OP) is a good writer, and it infuriated me to see him getting the same closed-mindedness over story content that I had. Somehow, seeing it happen to him was much worse, and I pretty well derailed this.

Didn't want to make this about me, so I'll just go back to my bridge now.

His story is well written_and I say that as someone who loathes straight up non consent(I'll take reluctance, extreme rough sex, but not rape)-the comment saying it should have been rejected due to grammar has not read many stories here

But the fact is the non con far outweighs any BDSM elements which is why its getting crushed. Throwing bondage into a non con scene does not make it BDSM in fact bondage is as much a non con element as a BDSM staple.

The shame is the owner doesn't properly screen stories because if she did and put this in non con right away, the author may have been irked at that, but....his results as far as score and feedback would have been much better.

I'm not a "straight laced" writer here. I've written my share of dark and edgy things and things that have earned me a nasty rep with some readers.

Want abuse? Write a BDSM rough sex laden INCEST story that during its course featured child abuse, drug addiction, mental illness, graphic violence, non consent(number one way to get beat up in incest) Then end it with a good old fashioned home invasion and tricking the readers for a chapter into thinking the main characters were dead.

That will earn you hate mail.

In my personal life? I engage in knife play on a regular basis. I am no "vanilla poser" nor am I most people's definition of "safe/sane" but every partner I have been with including my wife of the last twelve years, I have sat down with and we have discussed everything prior and that is how it should be in a real BDSM relationship.

But having said that...I do understand having a story with so many variables that it is bound to make some people unhappy no matter where it goes.

In the case of the OP's story though it was straight up non con and that's where I would have put it. If he had come here and asked "what do you authors think" the consensus would be non con

As I said above certain things will get blown up anywhere but their home and as for the BDSM community two things will always get their hair up

NOn con portrayed as BDSM...which is tricky in some cases, but not this story, its not even close.

And telling them there is a correlation between being an abused child and drawn to BDSM because of it.

I say that from the experience of being lit up big time for stating that theory in their forum.

 

[sr71plt]

That's ass backwards.

The author creates and the reader consumes. I'm not gonna go so far as to say the consumer should be thankful, but the consumer should not be the one deciding what is and isn't the most important part of a story. Frankly, I'm shocked that any writer would come here and argue against me on this. It's like (nearly) everyone has accepted that "this is the way it's always been done." Find your spines, people! Embrace the gay!!!

Sure the consumer decides what is and isn't the most important part of a story--for them. The author doesn't control how a story is received by the reader. And here the reader is free to impose their disagreement with the author with a vote or comment.

Beyond that, in terms of trump categories, the placement of stories on Literotica is controlled by the submissions editor, Laurel. She'll put the story in a different category than the author requested, if she wants. And there most certainly are trump categories here in her placements.

 

[robertreams]

Regardless of category and arguments about BDSM or Nonconsent vs. Rape (I mostly agree with lovecraft on that point) this story needs an editor. It occasionally slips into present tense for a verb or two, and there's a do/due homonym error. There are numerous places where a comma would clear up a confusing sentence. Other sentences are either not sentences or are confusing because something was left out or because the sentence is disordered in a way that causes subject/verb misattribution, for example:
"I went to all this you could see what was happening so why aren't you watching?"
and
"Open your eyes," his mouth close enough to her ear for her to feel his breath, "for me."
and
Elizabeth blinked a few times after reopening her eyes, bending over her as he was put his head lamp close enough to her face to make her eyes water.
As written, the last example has the subject, Elizabeth, blinking after reopening her eyes; so the flow of the sentence would cause readers to first attribute the action of bending over to the same subject. It should really be two sentences, and the second sentence probably shouldn't begin with "Bending over her as he was..."
There's a missing question mark at the end of the third paragraph. There are way too many -ing verbs. All fixable, but too extensive to fully correct in a forum post.

That's what I said! Poorly written. Needs a lot of work.