ok you male subs

[Homburg]

Well, here is the core of his argument, as he puts it himself (he's drawing heavily on Foucault's "History of Sexuality" i believe):

Foucault is a big old freak. I can remember more than one conversation about his proclivities in the lounge in the Philosophy dept. My professors found Foucault to be endlessly entertaining. He was something of a celebrity for them.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I can dig it. I'm probably weird in that I can eroticise M/m, or weird in being willing to admit to it. I'm even talking to one of the submales I know about doing some ropework on him. Meat is meat, and I want different body shapes to work my kinbaku on. A guy is as different as I can get, so why not?

Is there going to be sexual contact or activity? Nope, not at all. The overall act is inescapably erotic though. *shrug* I don't care. Hell, if he's comfortable enough, I'll take pics and post them in my thread. Like I said, meat is meat.

I don't see what's weird in that, even if you're a raging straight dude. I mean, I play with men all the time -- I can totally eroticize the F/m dynamic. I just don't want to fuck them. I've also played for a while with a M/m couple. That was great! First, they were so hot together. And there was something really cool and hot about learning some CBT tricks from this leather Daddy by practicing on his boy. Talk about hawt objectification! And give me a cute chick/butch/trannyboi, I can totally eroticize that dynamic too, whether on the bottom or on the top, depending on the person.

But yeah - can't do it with M/f. Well, so far i can't at least. I'm actually curious about what kind of guy could wake up that drive in me. Maybe if he was gay...?

 

[DeservingBitch]

Foucault is a big old freak. I can remember more than one conversation about his proclivities in the lounge in the Philosophy dept. My professors found Foucault to be endlessly entertaining. He was something of a celebrity for them.

I'm a big fan of Foucault. Of course, he has his flaws, especially from my feminist perspective. But the guy had some really insightful stuff to say.

I really like his stuff on sexuality, as well as on power/knowledge and discipline.

I should really not get started on this. Fuck, I come on Lit to get away from this stuff and talk with 'normal' people about fun stuff!

 

[Homburg]

I don't see what's weird in that, even if you're a raging straight dude.

Random non sequitur time. Okay, not totally non sequitur as it involved a submale, but, hey, it's inspired by the "raging straight" comment.

My buddy Al and I were at a local gay bar last week. Tuesday night is goth night, and the crowd is more het than gay. Well, Al and I are playing pool. Were being cheerfully loud and just our normal Dominant, scary selves. It's a fun game, as it is great to see hw many of the lovely pretty young goth things come by to see the scary men.

Well, this guy comes up and asks if he can play. He's dressed normally, and obviously is a little weirded out by all the goths, and we're normal looking. So Al is knocking the balls around and dude looks at me and asks if Al an I are a couple along with a few other "friendly" comments. I chuckle and tell him, "Nah, man, we're both straight". Wow, you would've thought that I grew an arm out of my forehead. He had no idea it was goth night, and when I told him that most of the people in the crowd were straight, he blanched. The poor guy excused himself from the game as soon as he felt socially able and basically dissappeared with a nervous look on his face. Apparently my Domly self was hot to him as an (apparent) submissive right up until I identified as straight, and then I suddenly went to "SCARY HET MAN THAT IS GOING TO KILL ME".

Well, and here's where I get back to the raging straight comment. We were chatting later with a gay friend of Al's. I tell him what the first chap was saying, and he about spit his drink out. Said, "My Gaydar is functioning just fine and you two are both as straight as you can be. I can't believe he'd ask that question!". For some reason, this struck me as funny that I would get chatted up a bit, then watch said chatter scamper off in fear, then have another gay man laugh hysterically over someone mistaking me and Al for gay.

It was an odd night

I mean, I play with men all the time -- I can totally eroticize the F/m dynamic. I just don't want to fuck them. I've also played for a while with a M/m couple. That was great! First, they were so hot together. And there was something really cool and hot about learning some CBT tricks from this leather Daddy by practicing on his boy. Talk about hawt objectification! And give me a cute chick/butch/trannyboi, I can totally eroticize that dynamic too, whether on the bottom or on the top, depending on the person.

But yeah - can't do it with M/f. Well, so far i can't at least. I'm actually curious about what kind of guy could wake up that drive in me. Maybe if he was gay...?

That makes sense. A gay man would no tbe interesting in you sexually, but could be interested erotically. At that point you would just have the D/s dynamic, and no het sexual weirdness.

Personally, so long as sexual contact is not an issue, I am not conceptually bothered by topping a man. *shrug* Again, meat is meat. And I have no core issues against bottoming to a man or woman, as I would only be interested in doing it so as to experience the varous floggers, crops, and such that I so cheerfully apply to my own bottoms, and/or to learn some sort of technique that I was interested in. Thinking about it, I would probably prefer it to be a woman. I would be less likely to have a combative response.

--

I'm a big fan of Foucault. Of course, he has his flaws, especially from my feminist perspective. But the guy had some really insightful stuff to say.

I really like his stuff on sexuality, as well as on power/knowledge and discipline.

I should really not get started on this. Fuck, I come on Lit to get away from this stuff and talk with 'normal' people about fun stuff!

Foucault and his nipple clips can be sexy

 

[Netzach]

I tried to avoid French philosophy as much as you can in the visual arts (not a lot)

This piece is interesting, and it's satisfying to read stuff like this, but inevitably I get creeped out when something as wet and messy and a-linguistic as sex drive is reduced to "bodily spaces and mediating machines" (could you be more PoMo?)

I know you're probably laughing because I get the sense you've got the same love hate love hate love relationship to these kinds of texts.

I disagree with a couple of assertions. To me masochism, outside the clinical sense and in the sexuality BDSM sense, IS the pursuit of unpleasure. It's the person who wants to hurt hurt, not the person who is interested in transforming their pain into pleasure, but into being transformed and transported by their pain. Painful pain.

The person who pursues pain and submission as a kind of Lewis Carrol like descent into their own pleasure, who converts those things into pleasure is what I consider a pain slut.

Of course, you can't say "pain slut" in an academic text, but I think the distinction is important when you take this off the page of theory. I think the latter retains more of a desire for agency, the former really wants to lose agency and wants a sense of authenticity in their suffering.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I tried to avoid French philosophy as much as you can in the visual arts (not a lot)

This piece is interesting, and it's satisfying to read stuff like this, but inevitably I get creeped out when something as wet and messy and a-linguistic as sex drive is reduced to "bodily spaces and mediating machines" (could you be more PoMo?)

I know you're probably laughing because I get the sense you've got the same love hate love hate love relationship to these kinds of texts.

I disagree with a couple of assertions. To me masochism, outside the clinical sense and in the sexuality BDSM sense, IS the pursuit of unpleasure. It's the person who wants to hurt hurt, not the person who is interested in transforming their pain into pleasure, but into being transformed and transported by their pain. Painful pain.

The person who pursues pain and submission as a kind of Lewis Carrol like descent into their own pleasure, who converts those things into pleasure is what I consider a pain slut.

Of course, you can't say "pain slut" in an academic text, but I think the distinction is important when you take this off the page of theory. I think the latter retains more of a desire for agency, the former really wants to lose agency and wants a sense of authenticity in their suffering.

I totally agree with you on your reading there. Especially that last part. Although, he does end by arguing that "masochism is an erotics of subjective disappearance that focuses on technologies of submissiveness, on the machines and instruments that connect the desiring subject to his or her own disappearance". BUT, like the good PoMo that he is, he can only make that claim AFTER arguing that "this technologie of bodily pleasure has to be performed as a game, since this allows pleasure to be produced and experienced independent of the demands culture places on identity".
Which yes, to a certain extent, i agree with. SM is a performance -- but then 'real' life and 'real' violence is also a performance. But I don't think that this is the point he is making when referring to is as a 'game'.

And yes, at the same time that i find it quite interesting to read that stuff, i also find it kind of ridiculous. And in this case maybe even more so, because i get the feeling that the guy is as vanilla as they come. So in many ways, it's your typical 'male anthropologue gaze" kind of writing. Some of his language and assertion, all PoMo that he is are rather offensive, are laughable. Like he quotes BDSMers by writing: "self-confessed female masochist...". Self-confessed??? WTF?

I'm not a huge fan of pomo myself. I like some of this stuff, like Foucault and Lacan are interesting, but i like much better how other peoples have re-appropriated their writing for what i see as more valid socio-political project.

And yes indeed on the love hate love hate relationship with these texts. Although right now, it borders more on hate hate hate than love!

 

[Netzach]

I totally agree with you on your reading there. Especially that last part. Although, he does end by arguing that "masochism is an erotics of subjective disappearance that focuses on technologies of submissiveness, on the machines and instruments that connect the desiring subject to his or her own disappearance". BUT, like the good PoMo that he is, he can only make that claim AFTER arguing that "this technologie of bodily pleasure has to be performed as a game, since this allows pleasure to be produced and experienced independent of the demands culture places on identity".
Which yes, to a certain extent, i agree with. SM is a performance -- but then 'real' life and 'real' violence is also a performance. But I don't think that this is the point he is making when referring to is as a 'game'.

And yes, at the same time that i find it quite interesting to read that stuff, i also find it kind of ridiculous. And in this case maybe even more so, because i get the feeling that the guy is as vanilla as they come. So in many ways, it's your typical 'male anthropologue gaze" kind of writing. Some of his language and assertion, all PoMo that he is are rather offensive, are laughable. Like he quotes BDSMers by writing: "self-confessed female masochist...". Self-confessed??? WTF?

I'm not a huge fan of pomo myself. I like some of this stuff, like Foucault and Lacan are interesting, but i like much better how other peoples have re-appropriated their writing for what i see as more valid socio-political project.

And yes indeed on the love hate love hate relationship with these texts. Although right now, it borders more on hate hate hate than love!

It is all a game and it is all a performance. But it's THE game. The philo/theory makes it into "just a game" - and that's why it leaves me cold. It's like being completely absorbed in the greatest Hamlet you've ever seen in your life and someone leans over and whispers "it's just pretend, you know..."

 

[DeservingBitch]

It is all a game and it is all a performance. But it's THE game. The philo/theory makes it into "just a game" - and that's why it leaves me cold. It's like being completely absorbed in the greatest Hamlet you've ever seen in your life and someone leans over and whispers "it's just pretend, you know..."

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

It's funny. When i read theoretical stuff on videogames and war, my typical reaction is the exact opposite though. Like, "yes yes, i get it, it participates in reproducing an aesthetic and narrative of war and violence... blahblahblah... -- but it's just a damn fucking game people! Can I just carry on killing people on the screen and be happy about it without you trying to ruin it for me? It's called FUN dammit."

 

[SweetDommes]

Homburg,
I'm very sorry that you had such a horrible experience - no surgical proceedure should be done without at least a local anesthetic unless there is a damn good reason why now. Hell, they gave me a local for my last dental appointment. I can't immagine a doctor/surgeon doing anything like that without a local unless there was something like a severe allergy to all locals that could be used, in which case, they should be put under unless there is a risk there due to respiratory problems.

 

[Homburg]

Homburg,
I'm very sorry that you had such a horrible experience - no surgical proceedure should be done without at least a local anesthetic unless there is a damn good reason why now. Hell, they gave me a local for my last dental appointment. I can't immagine a doctor/surgeon doing anything like that without a local unless there was something like a severe allergy to all locals that could be used, in which case, they should be put under unless there is a risk there due to respiratory problems.

There was anaesthetic there, it just did nothing. I've inherited my mother's resistance to local anaesthesia unfortunately, and it seems to have gotten worse as I've aged.

I was given a valium to take beforehand, zero effect. I told the doc that I was resistant to local, he nodded but appeared to ignore me, and applied the local, zero effect. He started cutting (did not do any test pricks or anything like a dentist would) and I told him that I could feel everything. He essentially shrugged, said it was too late, and kept cutting. I was advised to hold still as he sawed away (with apparently the world's dullest scalpel), commenting "Gee Mr. xxx, your skin sure is tough down here!". Sans knife to the balls, I would've offered great violence.

The sonuvabitch wasn't even considerate enough to warn me when he did particularly painful things. He just did them and then reminded me to hold still. In retrospect, he was probably enjoying himself and this is the reason for the treatment. Had it been intentional, consensual, and done on someone else, I would've respected the manner in which he went about his butchery. As is, if I ever meet him on the street somewhere he'll get told to "Hold still" while I return some pain owed.

 

[SweetDommes]

Yeah ... I'm afraid a lawsuit would have followed if I had been treated like that ... forget the violence, then you end up in trouble - make them pay ... big time.

 

[Homburg]

Given the circumstances, I didn't feel like bothering. The one attorney that I spoke to said that it wasn't worth it, as apparently it is not all that uncommon, as Netzach's M can attest to, and a number of other guys I know. The did get told to go straight to hell when they tried to charge for additional items that they 'forgot to mention', and when they threatened legal action, I calmly explain what had happened, and how any legal action would find me filing my own suits.

I probably should've. *shrug* I'm not one to do that, or even to think about it.

 

[Netzach]

Given the circumstances, I didn't feel like bothering. The one attorney that I spoke to said that it wasn't worth it, as apparently it is not all that uncommon, as Netzach's M can attest to, and a number of other guys I know. The did get told to go straight to hell when they tried to charge for additional items that they 'forgot to mention', and when they threatened legal action, I calmly explain what had happened, and how any legal action would find me filing my own suits.

I probably should've. *shrug* I'm not one to do that, or even to think about it.

I'd be researching class action. Honestly, the system is so fucked up with sexism it's not funny. And yes, it's sexism that makes a man think that a guy should just sit there and tough it out while you dig around in his nuts. The whole thing works because no one wants to be seen as a complainer and no one wants to be the person who whined. Arggh, I am so pissed off on your behalf. My husband is constantly being treated as a hypochondriac simply because he's a 35 year old man presenting with some honest to god health problems which aren't life threatening.

"It's not gonna kill you" seems to be the rallying cry of medicine on males. It's only important if it could, otherwise, shut up you baby.

 

[Homburg]

I'd be researching class action. Honestly, the system is so fucked up with sexism it's not funny. And yes, it's sexism that makes a man think that a guy should just sit there and tough it out while you dig around in his nuts. The whole thing works because no one wants to be seen as a complainer and no one wants to be the person who whined. Arggh, I am so pissed off on your behalf. My husband is constantly being treated as a hypochondriac simply because he's a 35 year old man presenting with some honest to god health problems which aren't life threatening.

"It's not gonna kill you" seems to be the rallying cry of medicine on males. It's only important if it could, otherwise, shut up you baby.

*grunts*

But it didn't kill me. Or even maim me. And scar from his shitty stitch job is pretty much gone. My scrotum has even returned to it previous shape. No permanent harm, no lasting damages even. Not much of a case for a tort unless I were to tell the judge that my sexual life was somehow compromised because I couldn't stomach the thought of CBT. And it is pretty tough to argue emotional distress when the only serious distress I felt was at the lack of his skinny neck in my hands.

 

[SweetDommes]

The one attorney that I spoke to said that it wasn't worth it, as apparently it is not all that uncommon, as Netzach's M can attest to, and a number of other guys I know.

IMO, that's like telling someone who's been raped that there is no point in pressing charges because it happens all the time ... it's a violation of your rights and your person that it happened.

The fact that it happens a lot doesn't make it right. The double (and triple, and quadruple) standards in medical practice have been around for centuries ... that doesn't make them right.

 

[Homburg]

IMO, that's like telling someone who's been raped that there is no point in pressing charges because it happens all the time ... it's a violation of your rights and your person that it happened.

The fact that it happens a lot doesn't make it right. The double (and triple, and quadruple) standards in medical practice have been around for centuries ... that doesn't make them right.

*shrug* At this point, it has been two years. The odds of getting anywhere are slim.