On adverbs

[PennLady]

cos you got the grammar wrong. You should have said, " With relish, I ate the hot dog". Put your adverbs in the right place to convey your meaning.

I think you may have missed the point on that one. He purposely did it that way b/c it could be taken a couple of ways. I thought it was pretty funny and got the point across well.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I think you may have missed the point on that one. He purposely did it that way b/c it could be taken a couple of ways. I thought it was pretty funny and got the point across well.

I see your point but, pedant that I am, I think he (intentionally) confused adverb with noun. Sure, it could be confused, but he wrote a noun and us simple readers would have taken it as such.

Isn't picking up these confusions why we rely on editors?

 

[sr71plt]

Being an editor, I'll point out that "us simple readers" should be "we simple readers."

(Take out the "simple," make it a sentence by inserting "are," and you can clearly see the mistake made.)

(Harry Shaw, Dictionary of Problem Words and Expressions, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1975. )

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Thanks sr. Given the IM nature of the forum I would claim forgiveness but you are right. 'Us' should have been 'We'.

Give us a break, 'We simple readers' works fine on the forum but not in prose. I'd love you to offer to edit my stories but not on the boards.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... Surely, there are two points here. Firstly, the ongoing struggle to suggest that dialogue tags are a curse to be avoided as much as possible and never made more important than the dialogue and secondly, the confusion between choice of verb and choice of adverb. ...

A fine point, I admit, but shouldn't "Firstly" be "First" and "secondly" be "second" in this paragraph?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

For once I agree totally with sr.

Basically, this thread isn't really about ' adverbs' per se but a subset of adverbs of manner. Nobody will criticize (or even notice?) many adverbs of time - Tomorrow I'm going to Las Vegas - or adverbs of frequency - Usually I shop in Tiffany's. Let's not get into adverbial clauses.

Surely, there are two points here. Firstly, the ongoing struggle to suggest that dialogue tags are a curse to be avoided as much as possible and never made more important than the dialogue and secondly, the confusion between choice of verb and choice of adverb.

From an earlier post, yes, slowly is redundant in the phrase, "He plodded slowly across the road" but surely not in, "He walked slowly across the road"? Slowly modifies the second but is tautologous in the first.

Adverbs are the lifeblood of writing. Think, "she plays well, he runs very fast, now you tell me you want a divorce"

Just my 2c.

Yep. People dont notice adverbs when theyre used correctly, because modifying subjects is helpful, and especially so when the subject is in transitional narrative.

 

[cocput]

I have a small doubt.

What if the word used is not part of generic vocab? For ex, when I read plodded in 'plodded slowly', i didn't go for a quick search on dictionary to figure out what it meant. But if it was written as just plodded, then I would have been forced to go through a dictionary.

Can I still use adverbs, if I feel that the intention is not conveyed?

--scorpio

 

[mynameisben]

I have a small doubt.

What if the word used is not part of generic vocab? For ex, when I read plodded in 'plodded slowly', i didn't go for a quick search on dictionary to figure out what it meant. But if it was written as just plodded, then I would have been forced to go through a dictionary.

Can I still use adverbs, if I feel that the intention is not conveyed?

--scorpio

Of course you can. I think what most people are trying to say here is, if you find yourself using an adverb take a moment to see if you can eliminate it by choosing a more descriptive verb. If you cannot, then your decision to use the adverb may be your best bet.

Here's a weak use of an adverb:

"She snatched her notebook off the countertop and quickly ran out the front door."

The problem above is that the verb "ran" is so common and has such a wide range of meaning, the author felt it was necessary to juice it up with the adverb "quickly."

A more descriptive verb is a better choice:

"She snatched her notebook off the countertop and bolted out the front door."

She also could have dashed, sprinted, hustled, trotted, skipped, hurried, or whatever shade of alacrity your artistic vision demands. All of these options (and doubtless, many others) are more descriptive and more pleasant to read than "quickly ran."

There are times when using an adverb is not nearly as objectionable:

"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has steadily gotten worse."

It's pretty tough to find a better way to express "steadily gotten" with any other verb. It's especially tough to do so and still make it sound like real life conversation.
For those reasons, I wouldn't hesitate at all to use the adverb.

 

[sr71plt]

". . . has degenerated."

But I agree with your points.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If the subject is indefinite you better use an adverb to modify it, or suffer the consequences when the reader fills in the blank and you get surprised.

Give me chastity and continence, but not yet. SAINT AUGUSTINE

Its the best example of adverb useage that popped into my head.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... There are times when using an adverb is not nearly as objectionable:

"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has steadily gotten worse."

It's pretty tough to find a better way to express "steadily gotten" with any other verb. ...

"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has deteriorated."
Or even:
"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has started to fail."

 

[mynameisben]

"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has deteriorated."
Or even:
"Over the years," Mrs. Siemens confessed, "my once perfect vision has started to fail."

I never said it was impossible to replace the adverb. What I said was, it's considerably less objectionable to use an adverb in certain situations, and it's a matter of personal style.

 

[cocput]

I never said it was impossible to replace the adverb. What I said was, it's considerably less objectionable to use an adverb in certain situations, and it's a matter of personal style.

In the above statement, can considerably be omitted?

 

[sr71plt]

In the above statement, can considerably be omitted?

Not and maintain the meaning of the original. The "considerably" defines the degree, so it's a more precise statement than if the qualifier is eliminated.

If it came up in an edit, the editor would be overstepping to simply remove it to get rid of another adverb. The author's meaning would have been changed. And edit isn't supposed to change the original meaning.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Not and maintain the meaning of the original. The "considerably" defines the degree, so it's a more precise statement than if the qualifier is eliminated.

If it came up in an edit, the editor would be overstepping to simply remove it to get rid of another adverb. The author's meaning would have been changed. And edit isn't supposed to change the original meaning.

Absulutely. Adverbs have a major role to play in modifying verbs and nuancing meaning. They're just a tad more subtle to use than adjectives but can finesse meaning.

Surely, the two great groans about adverbs are, using them in dialogue tags, and ,overusing them in manner with a single verb.

 

[cocput]

Absulutely. Adverbs have a major role to play in modifying verbs and nuancing meaning. They're just a tad more subtle to use than adjectives but can finesse meaning.

Surely, the two great groans about adverbs are, using them in dialogue tags, and ,overusing them in manner with a single verb.

So, you mean, I just concentrate on dialogue tags first.
The second aspect is word choice. I should run a round asking myself, "Is there a better word for this?"

Thank you for the advice. I just have to plan for one more round of review.
--scorpio

 

[bumblegrum]

Adverbially

Adverbs can be good, used in moderation. The problem I have with them - and I think this is also part of King's objection - is that all too often they're used as a crutch. When I read something like this:

"Don't touch me!" Jim said angrily

I think: if this author was any good, she wouldn't need to spell out that Jim is angry.

(And I agree that rephrasing to turn the adverb into an adjective, or whatever, is not an improvement.)

Bramblethorn made this point earlier, and I agree wholeheartedly. I have a bit of a bug with the continual use of "said" I see this as a "soft" verb that attracts an adverb because the verb doesn't do the job itself. So I might say, ""Don't touch me!" Jim growled" IMHO, this is a rather stronger verb; and saves a word to boot

Incidentally, I think a lot of the comments here, both positive and negative, apply equally to adjectives.

 

[mynameisben]

Bramblethorn made this point earlier, and I agree wholeheartedly. I have a bit of a bug with the continual use of "said" I see this as a "soft" verb that attracts an adverb because the verb doesn't do the job itself. So I might say, ""Don't touch me!" Jim growled" IMHO, this is a rather stronger verb; and saves a word to boot

Incidentally, I think a lot of the comments here, both positive and negative, apply equally to adjectives.

It's a matter of personal style. If you want your characters to growl, squeak, mumble, pipe, sing, hemorrhage or spit out their words, on occasion, have at it. I don't think it's such a great crime to use a dialog tag adjective, on occasion, when the need for dramatic emphasis makes it a good choice. Just be careful. Dialog tag adjectives are like eyeliner. A light touch of mascara can enhance a woman's good looks. But if she gets carried away . . . well, she's not doing herself any favors if she winds up looking like Groucho Marx.

"Did you do your algebra homework yet?" Stephanie queried.

"No, not yet," Maurice mumbled dejectedly.

"It's hard. You should get started as soon as you can," Stephanie pontificated piously.

"I'm too scared to start!" Maurice remonstrated with calorimetric intensity.

"Come over to my house. I'll show you my answers," Stephanie assuaged coquettishly.

"What...with all your little bothers running around like monkeys on fire?" he posited ponderously.

"No. In the privacy of my bedroom," Stephanie proposed unabashedly.

Maurice grinned. "Math is fun!" he ejaculated.
​

"Why, that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard." - Groucho Marx

 

[bumblegrum]

I love that, mynameisben. You are quite right - essentially, Maurice and Stephanie are saying "You show me yours and I'll show you mine" . I take your point about dramatic emphasis - and about mascara. Mind you, if I was editing that passage, I'd probably have had a gargantuan hernia, rapidly, unforgivingly or even supercalifragilisticexpialidociously.

 

[mynameisben]

Mind you, if I was editing that passage, I'd probably have had a gargantuan hernia, rapidly, unforgivingly or even supercalifragilisticexpialidociously.

I floccinaucinihilipilificategorically agree.

 

[sr71plt]

I couldn't get beyond "calorimetric." I was laughing too hard.

 

[cocput]

"Did you do your algebra homework yet?" Stephanie queried.

"No, not yet," Maurice mumbled dejectedly.

"It's hard. You should get started as soon as you can," Stephanie pontificated piously.

"I'm too scared to start!" Maurice remonstrated with calorimetric intensity.

"Come over to my house. I'll show you my answers,"Stephanie assuaged coquettishly.

"What...with all your little bothers running around like monkeys on fire?" he posited ponderously.

"No. In the privacy of my bedroom," Stephanie proposed unabashedly.

Maurice grinned. "Math is fun!" he ejaculated.
​

I have a doubt regarding when to skip tags. Can the tags in DarkRed be omitted, in the above example?
The marked places are the ones that I currently don't add tags unless they get in the way of the four-tagless-dialogue convention.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I have a doubt regarding when to skip tags. Can the tags in DarkRed be omitted, in the above example?
The marked places are the ones that I currently don't add tags unless they get in the way of the four-tagless-dialogue convention.

Yeah, I'd skip them. I try to use tags only when I feel they're adding something to the story: i.e. if it's not clear who's talking, or if it's not clear *how* they're talking. (But I'd prefer to convey that through the dialogue itself, if possible.) Don't be like this NYT bestseller:

"'Sorry', Brom apologised."

Regarding "said" vs other options, I'm somewhere in the middle. Dialogue shouldn't get monotonous; OTOH, if you try too hard to create variety, you can end up like the legendarily bad 'Eye of Argon':

"Consciousness returned to Grignr in stygmatic pools as his mind gradually cleared of the cobwebs cluttering its inner recesses, yet the stygian cloud of charcoal ebony remained."

You couldn't ask for more variety here. But the vocabulary doesn't make me imagine Grignr waking in the darkness, instead it makes me imagine Jim Theis flipping through a thesaurus. And as soon as the reader starts thinking about the process, you've lost immersion and the story suffers.

(Granted, EoA suffers for many other reasons too...)

 

[_Lynn_]

Yeah, I'd skip them. I try to use tags only when I feel they're adding something to the story: i.e. if it's not clear who's talking, or if it's not clear *how* they're talking. (But I'd prefer to convey that through the dialogue itself, if possible.) Don't be like this NYT bestseller:

"'Sorry', Brom apologised."

Regarding "said" vs other options, I'm somewhere in the middle. Dialogue shouldn't get monotonous; OTOH, if you try too hard to create variety, you can end up like the legendarily bad 'Eye of Argon':

"Consciousness returned to Grignr in stygmatic pools as his mind gradually cleared of the cobwebs cluttering its inner recesses, yet the stygian cloud of charcoal ebony remained."

You couldn't ask for more variety here. But the vocabulary doesn't make me imagine Grignr waking in the darkness, instead it makes me imagine Jim Theis flipping through a thesaurus. And as soon as the reader starts thinking about the process, you've lost immersion and the story suffers.

(Granted, EoA suffers for many other reasons too...)

However, in my opinion, apologised isn't a dialogue tag. A tag is what you verbalize. (SR explains this far better than I can.) I know we've had discussions on tags before, but I didn't subscribe to the threads for some reason.

 

[sr71plt]

However, in my opinion, apologised isn't a dialogue tag. A tag is what you verbalize. (SR explains this far better than I can.) I know we've had discussions on tags before, but I didn't subscribe to the threads for some reason.

No, apologized/apologised doesn't fit well here. I can't really say why this particular one doesn't work, but it doesn't here. That's what I thought Bramblethorn was indicating as well--that it was used in a NYT best-seller, but it didn't work.

I'm editing a mainstream book where "said" is used too much. I don't think using it is always the best fallback. But I edit and read books too where there aren't enough dialogue tags--where I lose track of who is speaking when.