Poetry in Progress ~ construction zone

[ruminator]

Thanks Pat! But I sure don't feel like I add much to this place. I'd get a better response if I did.

I'm glad you were upfront with your comments, and if you don't particularly care for a type of poem you can't be blamed for that. I understand.

But... I don't sacrifice a word for a form. When I think of what I want to write it comes out in the form I use. I don't think in free verse. Well... lol! I barely think in phrases! But I have used/written both ways and its just that this piece came out this way. I didn't plan it- I'm just trying to improve it.

I was raised on form poetry. No one ever read anything else to me, and since, though from my grand parents on down we were all great readers, no one ever read to me or showed me anything else. As I got older poetry was the last thing I looked for when I looked for something to read. So I am coming from my roots, stunted though they be.

Thanks anyway, DollBoy!

Now for another viewpoint....

I should say more often how much your presence and contributions add to my development in this field. Both of you and many others as well. I'm in a tough spot in being a little new and not quite sure what I should add sometimes. I'm not proficient in the forms and usually feel my opinion in some matters is unqualified.

No problems, just getting used to the varities of people and forms here and enjoying all of them.

 

[BooMerengue]

Now for another viewpoint....

I should say more often how much your presence and contributions add to my development in this field. Both of you and many others as well. I'm in a tough spot in being a little new and not quite sure what I should add sometimes. I'm not proficient in the forms and usually feel my opinion in some matters is unqualified.

No problems, just getting used to the varities of people and forms here and enjoying all of them.

Both of me???

Huh??

*sitting back watching now as Rumi gets out of this one!

laughing and laughing and laughing...

 

[BooMerengue]

Oh! You meant me and Pat? *smacks head...

still laughing and laughing and laughing...

 

[PatCarrington]

Thanks Pat! But I sure don't feel like I add much to this place. I'd get a better response if I did.

I'm glad you were upfront with your comments, and if you don't particularly care for a type of poem you can't be blamed for that. I understand.

But... I don't sacrifice a word for a form. When I think of what I want to write it comes out in the form I use. I don't think in free verse. Well... lol! I barely think in phrases! But I have used/written both ways and its just that this piece came out this way. I didn't plan it- I'm just trying to improve it.

I was raised on form poetry. No one ever read anything else to me, and since, though from my grand parents on down we were all great readers, no one ever read to me or showed me anything else. As I got older poetry was the last thing I looked for when I looked for something to read. So I am coming from my roots, stunted though they be.

Thanks anyway, DollBoy!

but you DO add so much here…and a lot more than you know, apparently.

about the poem, I think you DO sacrifice content. you just don’t know that you do.

take these lines, for example:

pour the water on the ground
stepping patterns all around

that first line is my favorite first line of all the incantations. I think it says a whole lot about not only her action, but her thoughts and feelings, keeping growth in things that are already dead, etc.

the second line, in my opinion, is forced and weak. it’s there because of the word “around.”

assuming that a poet is looking for the “perfect words” all the time, how do you follow that first line with a second one?

if you need to rhyme, you are LIMITED to a second line that ends with a word whose last or only syllable rhymes with “ground.”

how many are there?

whereas, if you have no need to rhyme, your choices are endless, corralled only by the vocabulary of your language.

so, you sacrifice nearly endless possibilities to the shackles of a few words…and what are the odds that the “perfect words” will be there in that little chain of words you have confined yourself with?

you can try to find pretty ways to hop, but no one runs better or faster with their legs tied.

that, in a nutshell, is my argument for free verse.

 

[BooMerengue]

but you DO add so much here…and a lot more than you know, apparently.

about the poem, I think you DO sacrifice content. you just don’t know that you do.

take these lines, for example:

pour the water on the ground
stepping patterns all around

that first line is my favorite first line of all the incantations. I think it says a whole lot about not only her action, but her thoughts and feelings, keeping growth in things that are already dead, etc.

the second line, in my opinion, is forced and weak. it’s there because of the word “around.”

assuming that a poet is looking for the “perfect words” all the time, how do you follow that first line with a second one?

if you need to rhyme, you are LIMITED to a second line that ends with a word whose last or only syllable rhymes with “ground.”

how many are there?

whereas, if you have no need to rhyme, your choices are endless, corralled only by the vocabulary of your language.

so, you sacrifice nearly endless possibilities to the shackles of a few words…and what are the odds that the “perfect words” will be there in that little chain of words you have confined yourself with?

you can try to find pretty ways to hop, but no one runs better or faster with their legs tied.
that, in a nutshell, is my argument for free verse.

hhmmm... I see the point. But picking that verse is odd. I actually had the 2nd line in mind before the first. I wanted to show her doing a ritual and most rituals include movement. I added the water about a nanosecond later.

I see exactly what you mean, Pat. I have often opened RhymeZone while I wrote to find the best word. But I think that keeping to the form and using what words fit is equally important. I have only seen maybe 5 people here in almost 3 yrs now who do freeverse as I think it should be done. In those examples you can clearly see the structure, and the theme, even if there isn't a definable plot. And I know from my own experience it takes a LOT of work to do that. I shy away from free verse here because I am not good at it (yet) but I get a ton of the red H's. (Not going there again, but you see what I mean. I have always felt one must learn to color in the lines in order to go out of them, and even good ol' Al Pacino in Looking For Richard agreed- you must learn the forms before you can mess with them successfully.

Another thought I am having as I write is "Do I want the reader to pick apart my lines, or do I want my lines to carry them into the story?" I don't want to be analyzed- I want to leave you with a good feeling. Of course a poet may look a little deeper than an ordinary reader, but who am I writing for?

I'm going now to decide on those things...

Thank you. You rock.

I, on the contrary, just sort of roll...

.

 

[flyguy69]

::

Hammer

I remember the cold
that day, nails driven
through my clothes to lodge
in my chest, in the joints
of my fingers, in my throat.
I remember the crack
of boards that struck
the ground like hammers
on an anvil, sparks of ice
scattering from impact.
I remember the timbers
that fought demolition,
their frozen joints unable
to relax, and the blow
of your hammer that beat them
flat. I remember
the hard handle, January
in your stare, the frozen plain
of splinters at our feet.
But I don’t remember why
the garage suddenly meant
her, and why it had to come down
that day.

::

 

[champagne1982]

::

Hammer

I remember the cold
that day, nails driven
through my clothes to lodge
in my chest, in the joints
of my fingers, in my throat.
I remember the crack
of boards that struck
the ground like hammers
on an anvil, sparks of ice
scattering from impact.
I remember the timbers
that fought demolition,
their frozen joints unable
to relax, and the blow
of your hammer that beat them
flat. I remember
the hard handle, January
in your stare, the frozen plain
of splinters at our feet.
But I don’t remember why
the garage suddenly meant
her, and why it had to come down
that day.

::

You tell a world of emotions during this demolition, dear sir. My only comment has to do with nails being driven. Isn't this more a process of construction? I know you can find a less common way to explain the pain, I'd like to see what you come up with.

 

[flyguy69]

Thanks, Carrie

Is your objection that "driven nails" is a constructive process in a metaphor of demolition, or that it is a commonplace expression of pain?

You tell a world of emotions during this demolition, dear sir. My only comment has to do with nails being driven. Isn't this more a process of construction? I know you can find a less common way to explain the pain, I'd like to see what you come up with.

 

[PatCarrington]

.....

 

[champagne1982]

Thanks, Carrie

Is your objection that "driven nails" is a constructive process in a metaphor of demolition, or that it is a commonplace expression of pain?

Both reasons are valid alone, put together, they make a rather strong argument for evaluation, at least I think they do.

 

[flyguy69]

removed per request

 

[PatCarrington]

Man, did a cold front move through? Two in a row that nip the nose and bite the toes!

This is excellent, Pat. Here are my thoughts on first reading:

The poem opens in blue and closes in white. That works, but the white queen at the end seemed regal rather than painful to me.

The first strophe asks how this man is alive, but the poem never answers. Since "how" is not important, I don't think you need to ask it.

The third strophe introduces (tangentially) a new character: the narrator's teacher. Not developing this character doesn't hurt the poem at all but it did, for me, diminish the narrator's insight. I would prefer that the N simply state his beliefs.

One part I simply did not get: the lies that sound more like truth etc. The lie that N might find the strength required? That the hat is a crown? I'll puzzle on it, but the image doesn't leap out to me.

Why does the metaphor change in the final strophe? Until now the man has been holy and a god, now he becomes a king. It lends itself well to the ruler/serf contrast, but a sacred/profane pair would also work.

Some wonderful images throughout. I liked "worship feeding on safety" and "dying in the church where we was married."

Good luck.

thanks, fly.

i put this up hoping to get thoughts because it's all tangled up in my head...

staining glass...stained glass...colors...

god...king...king of the jews...

king...queen...married...church...cincinnati is 'the big queen city'...

i don't know what you mean about the 'teacher'.

in the poem (which i'm not sure is clear but will be when it's done) i'm looking out a window onto the streets of cincinnati in winter at one homeless man who has chosen to stay in the city he loves, and dies on the street, kind of by choice. i feel something holy in him, about him, choosing to suffer, abandoned by the city he loves...that kind of thing.

the 'lies' are me telling myself i could be brave enough to go to him with my hot coffee and help him in some productive way, as if i could make a difference - the thought sounds good, good enough that i want it to be true -and the woolen hat is being compared to a crown of thorns..tight and crooked...seepage...

like i said...it's all knotted up in my head.

 

[flyguy69]

...
in the poem (which i'm not sure is clear but will be when it's done) i'm looking out a window onto the streets of cincinnati in winter at one homeless man who has chosen to stay in the city he loves, and dies on the street, kind of by choice. i feel something holy in him, about him, choosing to suffer, abandoned by the city he loves...that kind of thing.
....

This is very clear.

I did not know about the "Big Queen City" title-- that explains a great deal.

The teacher is in the line "I was taught..." I was left feeling that the N had adopted some insights from a teacher, and wanted him to have deduced them on his own. A gritty, mean-streets education. It is not a significant weakness.

I guess I would caution you not to put too many metaphors into the poem. And let you decide what's too many!

 

[PatCarrington]

This is very clear.

I did not know about the "Big Queen City" title-- that explains a great deal.

The teacher is in the line "I was taught..." I was left feeling that the N had adopted some insights from a teacher, and wanted him to have deduced them on his own. A gritty, mean-streets education. It is not a significant weakness.

I guess I would caution you not to put too many metaphors into the poem. And let you decide what's too many!

"I was taught to caress the human side of providence" was a reference to a roman catholic upbringing...and that and "imperfect god" to the human part of jesus.

i'm with you for sure on the 'too many metaphors' comment.

thanks, as always. your insights are invaluable.

 

[flyguy69]

"I was taught to caress the human side of providence" was a reference to a roman catholic upbringing...and that and "imperfect god" to the human part of jesus.

i'm with you for sure on the 'too many metaphors' comment.

thanks, as always. your insights are invaluable.

In sufficient numbers they can be exchanged for a plastic key chain or a handful of tootsie rolls. Save up!

 

[PatCarrington]

In sufficient numbers they can be exchanged for a plastic key chain or a handful of tootsie rolls. Save up!

my goal in life is to have zero keys...i'm getting closer.

but i'll take all the tootsie rolls you got.

 

[PatCarrington]

.....

 

[PatCarrington]

......

 

[PatCarrington]

.....

 

[Tathagata]

I have loosed yet another paper lantern
out among uncertain currents
aqueous right angles
pulse and eddy
one thinks of chocolate
and hears infant burbles
as rice paper
glides on waterbug feet
father away

wedding veil fragile
its flame bobbing craning looking back to watch me become
one with the darkness
void of light again


merged with night
no water is seen
nylon rasp of reeds hush me
as i wonder aloud
why i bother

some where downstream
amazed eyes watch
a hundred flames parade by
with no explanation
tears don't burn and so
they laugh
and speulate what wonderful things are going on
up on the mountain

 

[Angeline]

Namaste' sweetheart. I love this which means, of course, that you get my unsolicited opinion.

I have loosed yet another paper lantern
out i don't like "out among"..."to" seems more economical and less awkward; maybe it's me among uncertain currents. see period added
Aqueous right angles
pulse and eddy.period added
One thinks of chocolate, see comma
and again might be me, but I don't think you need the "and" hears infant burbles
as rice paper glides I think "glides" has more impact if you move it up here
on waterbug feet
father away I like the way you separate out "farther away." There's an ambiguous quality as to whether it goes with "feet" or "wedding," which you could exploit even more if you dropped it down a line so that there's a line of space between it and its previous and succeeding lines

wedding veil fragile
its flame bobbing, see commas added craning, looking back to watch me
become one with the darkness I moved this line break around--what do you think?
void of light again.see period added


Merged with night, see comma
no water is seen. see period
The I think you need a The here, but only if you mean this line as declarative, in which case you should say "hushes." If you mean the line to be imperative then no "The" and "hush" is better--capish? nylon rasp of reeds hush me
as I wonder aloud
why I bother. why you bother what? I understand what you're trying to say, but there's a more elegant way to say it

Somewhere downstream
amazed eyes watch
a hundred flames parade by
with no explanation.
Tears don't burn and so
they laugh
and speculate what wonderful things are going on
up on the mountain these last four lines are the only part of the poem I think really need work. There's a disconnect in meaning here--did your tears put out the flame of your lantern? I think that's the image you want, but why would that make the watchers laugh? Why would it make them speculate that this means something wonderful? Maybe I'm just missing what you want to say, but maybe if you explain it in unpoetic prose to me, you'll find your way to a more precise way to get it across

edited with love, so don't give me shit about the critical comments.

 

[Tathagata]

Namaste' sweetheart. I love this which means, of course, that you get my unsolicited opinion.





edited with love, so don't give me shit about the critical comments.

letting loose the latern, ie: light
letting someone or something go
the latern itself is sadness hence the tears
downstream they have no idea that this is let go with sadness
they simply see a parade of lights
and fail to see it am letting go of things that cause me pain

i gues it needs more work eh??
LOL

thank you though
i'm still dicking around with it

namaste'

 

[Angeline]

letting loose the latern, ie: light
letting someone or something go
the latern itself is sadness hence the tears
downstream they have no idea that this is let go with sadness
they simply see a parade of lights
and fail to see it am letting go of things that cause me pain

i gues it needs more work eh??
LOL

thank you though
i'm still dicking around with it

namaste'

well get some other opinions, lol. maybe it was just me not getting it.

 

[champagne1982]

I have loosed yet another paper lantern
out among uncertain currents
aqueous right angles
pulse and eddy
one thinks of chocolate
and hears infant burbles
as rice paper
glides on waterbug feet
father away Was it your intent to send your father or was it a serendipitious typo? The near homonym with farther and the fact that you're setting another soul free here, makes me think you've lost your dad.

wedding veil fragile
its flame bobbing craning looking back to watch me become
one with the darkness
void of light again


merged with night
no water is seen
nylon rasp of reeds hush me
as i wonder aloud
why i bother

some where downstream
amazed eyes watch
a hundred flames parade by
with no explanation
tears don't burn and so
they laugh Maybe, instead of "they" you could refer to those at the shore as others or something different.
and speulate what wonderful things are going on Would telling us about the grief in your loss here make the poem communicate your opening better? "and speculate what grief (feeling) moves me"
up on the mountain


I wish I had read this before I caught ang's edit. I'd be able to tell you if I understood what you were saying in the beginning. But, I am familiar with paper laterns and the fact that it's a happy festival that sends them afloat, so the laughter doesn't seem out of place in your ending.

Thanks, Tath, you've earned your place on metaphor lane yet again.

 

[Angeline]

I have loosed yet another paper lantern
out among uncertain currents
aqueous right angles
pulse and eddy
one thinks of chocolate
and hears infant burbles
as rice paper
glides on waterbug feet
father away Was it your intent to send your father or was it a serendipitious typo? The near homonym with farther and the fact that you're setting another soul free here, makes me think you've lost your dad.

wedding veil fragile
its flame bobbing craning looking back to watch me become
one with the darkness
void of light again


merged with night
no water is seen
nylon rasp of reeds hush me
as i wonder aloud
why i bother

some where downstream
amazed eyes watch
a hundred flames parade by
with no explanation
tears don't burn and so
they laugh Maybe, instead of "they" you could refer to those at the shore as others or something different.
and speulate what wonderful things are going on Would telling us about the grief in your loss here make the poem communicate your opening better? "and speculate what grief (feeling) moves me"
up on the mountain


I wish I had read this before I caught ang's edit. I'd be able to tell you if I understood what you were saying in the beginning. But, I am familiar with paper laterns and the fact that it's a happy festival that sends them afloat, so the laughter doesn't seem out of place in your ending.

Thanks, Tath, you've earned your place on metaphor lane yet again.

Slut.

Do you know who Jimmy MacDonald is/was? I saw a rerun of his (1960s?) talk show on the one Canuckian station we get on tv here, and it struck me that Dan Ackroyd took his newsman schtick from him.

Sorry Tathala. I know it's a hijack, but it's been bugging me about this MacDonald guy.

darkmaas? you would know. i have no comment as to why.