Polyamorous pecking order compromised

[EmpressFi]

*nods* Poly takes a lot of maturity, the ability to effectively communicate your needs etc.. and most of all that all the people involved are involved because it's what they truly want. You have to be in it because it's want you want/need. Doing it to please someone else is going to lead to huge problems eventually.

I agree whole heartedly. This is the part that's hard for me.. to an extent. With Malin.. I'm really good at telling him what's on my mind.. too good sometimes.. But being poly means I also have be honest with his OSO's and he has to be honest and open with my OSO, my Master. Right now, my Master sees no one else but me, but were that to change, but we've already talked to death what would happened and what my role would be in their relationship..the expectations.. I dont think I fully understood the level of maturity it would take when Malin and I started talking about taking our marriage in this direction... yet we talked it to death before ever actually doing anything about it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Honestly if I have a slave and they have no limits and they can't seem to be adjusting no matter what I do and they are becoming the source of more misery than not when I am doing *exactly* what I told them to expect, then yeah, they're outta there. I do not have infinite patience with anyone and I do not have slave-like use for someone who cannot make the adjustment around my fundamental nature. It's not 'cause they're bad people it would be called a rift or an impasse, just them and me being not a fit.

However, I never suggested that they might be kept on if they could not handle the fact that they will not be the only one. It's practically stamped on a little card I hand to people with my personal mission statement on it if I had such things. If I got a lot more action I might have it tattooed above my pussy "you will never be the only one, get over it"

I think bait-and-switch is the number 2 predictor of misery.

That is why we have different models of M/s with different aspects. He is free to do what he wants, but that does not mean I have to find a way to fake how I am feeling...what he chooses to do about that is his decision, but he wants someone with emotions as it is what he knows and understands, and he wants to know what those emotions are and why....it is a source of some of his greatest pleasure, and pleasures he could not experience if the emotions were predictable, kept in check and controlled at all times, dulled and buried, and above all putting on a happy face at every turn in the journey. Don't think his passionate Spanish nature could deal with that and be happy...as he says ofte, he is not interested in women with ice in their veins, BTDT.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

That is why we have different models of M/s with different aspects. He is free to do what he wants, but that does not mean I have to find a way to fake how I am feeling...what he chooses to do about that is his decision, but he wants someone with emotions as it is what he knows and understands, and he wants to know what those emotions are and why....it is a source of some of his greatest pleasure, and pleasures he could not experience if the emotions were predictable, kept in check and controlled at all times, dulled and buried, and above all putting on a happy face at every turn in the journey. Don't think his passionate Spanish nature could deal with that and be happy...as he says ofte, he is not interested in women with ice in their veins, BTDT.

Catalina

I dont' want faked anything. I hope to god people who can't handle it are smart enough to self-select out of serious relationships with me leaving people who are genuinely happy with me as I am.

I don't bait and switch - I don't suggest levels of exclusiveness that aren't going to happen.

I also extend the poly prerogative to my SO's though, rather than the unidirectional poly that seems to be really popular in D/s - I have no idea how that's supposed to work. As an example, if I owned an exceptionally horny aussie gal I didn't want to fuck every night (my libido isn't what it was pre-sick) I'd be on the hunt for someone else to help me in the endeavor she liked enough that way. I do think these things through...

 

[nh23]

I agree whole heartedly. This is the part that's hard for me.. to an extent. With Malin.. I'm really good at telling him what's on my mind.. too good sometimes.. But being poly means I also have be honest with his OSO's and he has to be honest and open with my OSO, my Master. Right now, my Master sees no one else but me, but were that to change, but we've already talked to death what would happened and what my role would be in their relationship..the expectations.. I dont think I fully understood the level of maturity it would take when Malin and I started talking about taking our marriage in this direction... yet we talked it to death before ever actually doing anything about it.

Yes as did I and my husband. It was something we talked about for a long time before we jumped in, and we still do. Even if there isn't a problem, we still have discussions about how we think things are going etc.. Communication is always the best defense when there is a problem..and IMO to prevent problems in the future.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I also extend the poly prerogative to my SO's though, rather than the unidirectional poly that seems to be really popular in D/s - I have no idea how that's supposed to work. As an example, if I owned an exceptionally horny aussie gal I didn't want to fuck every night (my libido isn't what it was pre-sick) I'd be on the hunt for someone else to help me in the endeavor she liked enough that way. I do think these things through...

LOL, I am sure you would find some devious ways for it to be enjoyed. Neither of us could live with the open ended arrangement some have where both are at liberty to seek other partners. We are buggers for intensity, and can't for the life of us see how he could own me and I could be free to go off and find other partners to keep me happy. There are ways of handling it, but it all takes too much time and energy at the moment, and even then, if it were primarily to satisy libido, it wouldn't work as for both of us sex with deep emotions works far better than just for sex sake...him more so than me even. Who knows what the future holds though.

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

Wow, I do so envy you your obvious ability to switch your emotions when in a relationship. Personally, say after 5+ years of F and I being together he just up and brought in another who firstly had no interest in me or me being here, and knowing it is not my idea of the perfect relationship model...I am supposed to walk out the door, leave my marriage, forget our agreements as M/s, and as well as all that, feel nothing and take the responsibility it is me who has to go as I am not interested in poly and obviously the one in the way? Hmm, I am happy I am with someone who has a little more insight into human emotions, rights, and responsibility.

And I get the same understanding from the OP, which is why I don't think it is a question of whether the pyl is suited to poly, but more so who the other pyl is and personalities, or the actions of the PYL...far different to the need to be shown the door or told to get over it.

Catalina

Where did I suggest such thing?

I said that if you agreed to a poly relationship or agreed to be with someone who right from the beginning made it clear that s/he is poly, that then it is unfair, and wrong in my opinion, to expect the relationship or the person to become monogamous because you have a hard time with it.

Now, it is of course different if the relationship starts as monogamous and then one of the partner express the desire to re-negociate the relationship to make it poly. But at the end of the day, yes, I believe that you are responsible to decide whether or not you can deal with it, and if not, to get out. Does it means that you're left alone dealing with your feelings and insecurities should you decide to give poly a try? Well no. Duh. I didn't think it was necessary to mention that you should be able to count on your partner's support and understanding since it's kind of a given to me in any healthy relationship.

But there's a huge difference to me between my partner telling me:

a)"your relationship with X makes me feel jealous and insecure so I want you to stop seeing/fucking/playing with this person" and
b)"I've been feeling insecure and neglected lately, even jealous of your relationship with X and of the time you spend with her/him. I need help from you in dealing with it - can we talk of ways for you to reassure me of my place in your life?"

In case it is not clear, option a is putting the blame on me for how my partner feels and expecting me to cater to her/his jealousy by becoming monogamous. Option b is my partner owing their feelings, but asking for my help and support in dealing with the situation.

I believe in honest, open, and respectful relationship. This is the reason why I make it very clear to any potential romantic partners or play-partners that I am poly. I also refuse to be involved with anyone who needs/wants to keep their relationship with me hidden from their other partners. I am very careful about doing everything I can to make sure that my partners feel secure and loved and special in their relationship with me. I don't wait for a problem to happen to talk about my relationship with them and to discuss my and their needs. I am always open for re-negociation of the parameters of my relationship, expect for one thing: poly is not-negociable. I always talk about potential new partner with my current partner BEFORE anything happen. I want to give them the possibility to make the best choice for themself (to stay with me or not) and to give myself the same possibility of making the best choice for myself (which may involve making a choice between one relationship or another) BEFORE introducing someone else. And of course, I expect the same from all my partners.

How you get from that or anything I said that I have no insights on feelings, rights, and responsibilities in relationships is beyond me. But what do I know right? After all, you must know better than me how to deal and negociate and manage poly relationships on a daily basis. It's not as if I'm doing it and you're not.

 

[Caitlynne]

However, I never suggested that they might be kept on if they could not handle the fact that they will not be the only one. It's practically stamped on a little card I hand to people with my personal mission statement on it if I had such things. If I got a lot more action I might have it tattooed above my pussy "you will never be the only one, get over it"

I think bait-and-switch is the number 2 predictor of misery.

Exactly. All the people need to know who they are. Even in monogamy, you run into people pulling a bait and switch. They think they can be monogamous. They try to be. They are expected to be. But, in the end they just aren't. Maybe they never will be. It's all about knowing who you are and what you want.

Same with Poly. You need to know who you are and what your needs are or might be in the future. You need to be up front about that from the get go. You can't pull a bait and switch. People have to know what they are singing on for, and you have to know who you are so you can tell them.

That is the key to any relationship, not just poly.

I have sympathy for those in a monogamous relationship who are then thrust into the concepts of poly. It's a shock, and it had to be handled differently than a relationship that may have had only two people in it, but was always prepared for the possibility of more being added. Those are two different situations, with different needs and way diffeent solutions to problems.

 

[the captians wench]

Okay, maybe I'm just nieve here, but I am amazed at all the nagotiations that go on here.

When I set into a relationship with a person, or persons, I don't sit down and talk about "okay this is what you are going to be for me, and me for you and me for your so and your so to me. And should I choose to find another to add this is the role they will play in your life, and they will be this to your so....." I almost feel like there needs to be a form for me to fill out to be able to change my bathroom times!

It's hard for me to imagine contracting a relationship like that. Especailly since I'm a very emotional creature. When I got involved with the my current situation, I wasn't even setting out for it to be any thing close to what it is. A lot changed with in the first few weeks of meeting. I had no idea things would click the way they did, nor did I imagine I would feel so deeply.

I just don't like the idea of needing an act of congress to be able to let the relationship evolve.

More on topic, comunication is key, and some times you do have to take a step back and say "look this isn't working for me, and I don't know how to make it work, but I would like for you to address my feelings." The PYL has a tremendous amount of responcibility here in making each pyl feel special, apreciated, and valued. But the pyls also have a duity to voice up when they need some validation. I'm a needy little bitch, and when I'm not getting the attention that I need, I get very...well...bitchy. I realized that some feelings were eating at me, and I was pulling away and absorbing myself in my feelings of neglect and even being hurt by the fact that my PYL haddn't noticed or addressed the issue. Actually I think he did have an incling of what I was feeling, but if I wasn't willing to bring it up then he was not going to address it (whether that's right or wrong really isn't up for discussion). I realized that i was internalizing things, and I realized that i was ultimitly the one that was being detrimental to the relationship, so i spoke out. It wasn't easy, but i felt better after I did, and a lot of issues were resolved, and I think it has made our bond stronger.

I know I can speak up when I'm having "icky feelings", but most importantly I know I need to speak up when they pop up. If they are addressed when they are in the budding stage, then they can be delt with with minimal damage. If they are left to fester, then the problems can grow and the "clean up" more of an undertaking.

I think it does sound like a lot of what's going on is the whole "new relationship high". That phaze can be magical to the two going thru it, but it is also a time when the third person can feel left out. It's a hard balance to maintain, but I stick with the "be honest" aproach. If you need more time, say so, but you must be understanding of the fact that there is only so much time to be had. I don't care how much one might say "time is only an issue if you make it one" the fact of the matter is time is limited where love, affection, wants, and needs are not.

 

[Netzach]

Okay, maybe I'm just nieve here, but I am amazed at all the nagotiations that go on here.

When I set into a relationship with a person, or persons, I don't sit down and talk about "okay this is what you are going to be for me, and me for you and me for your so and your so to me. And should I choose to find another to add this is the role they will play in your life, and they will be this to your so....." I almost feel like there needs to be a form for me to fill out to be able to change my bathroom times!

It's hard for me to imagine contracting a relationship like that. Especailly since I'm a very emotional creature. When I got involved with the my current situation, I wasn't even setting out for it to be any thing close to what it is. A lot changed with in the first few weeks of meeting. I had no idea things would click the way they did, nor did I imagine I would feel so deeply.

I just don't like the idea of needing an act of congress to be able to let the relationship evolve.

More on topic, comunication is key, and some times you do have to take a step back and say "look this isn't working for me, and I don't know how to make it work, but I would like for you to address my feelings." The PYL has a tremendous amount of responcibility here in making each pyl feel special, apreciated, and valued. But the pyls also have a duity to voice up when they need some validation. I'm a needy little bitch, and when I'm not getting the attention that I need, I get very...well...bitchy. I realized that some feelings were eating at me, and I was pulling away and absorbing myself in my feelings of neglect and even being hurt by the fact that my PYL haddn't noticed or addressed the issue. Actually I think he did have an incling of what I was feeling, but if I wasn't willing to bring it up then he was not going to address it (whether that's right or wrong really isn't up for discussion). I realized that i was internalizing things, and I realized that i was ultimitly the one that was being detrimental to the relationship, so i spoke out. It wasn't easy, but i felt better after I did, and a lot of issues were resolved, and I think it has made our bond stronger.

I know I can speak up when I'm having "icky feelings", but most importantly I know I need to speak up when they pop up. If they are addressed when they are in the budding stage, then they can be delt with with minimal damage. If they are left to fester, then the problems can grow and the "clean up" more of an undertaking.

I think it does sound like a lot of what's going on is the whole "new relationship high". That phaze can be magical to the two going thru it, but it is also a time when the third person can feel left out. It's a hard balance to maintain, but I stick with the "be honest" aproach. If you need more time, say so, but you must be understanding of the fact that there is only so much time to be had. I don't care how much one might say "time is only an issue if you make it one" the fact of the matter is time is limited where love, affection, wants, and needs are not.

I really like what you have to say. It's totally stupid to progress with too tight a road map or script of how you think youre relationships will be, people are filled with surprises and for those who think they know themselves or their SO so very well, life has some ugly ones to show you you don't.

When I enter a new relationship I make this stuff clear not because I'm a legislative fetishist or anything, but because I had to go through the end of an important relationship and a bunch of hard realizations to figure out that exclusive relationships have not do not and will not work for me. Not everything has to be negotiated, but huge glaring problems have to come out first. It's one of the FEW things I'm pretty damn sure of. Like the fact that I've never grown into liking button mushrooms, they're still as vile as they were when I was 5.

Me dating a mono person would be like me dating a gay man. We're over before we're up and off. It's not something like who's going to stay home with the kids, a serious relationship issue to consider, but it's a fundamental disconnect in how I define love, honor, self-respect and how people who tie those things together with sexual/romantic exclusivity feel about them. It's like trying to marry someone in a culture so radically different from mine that we'll never agree on anything. I know such relationships work and exist, but they're not something I'm interested in pursuing personally.

I totally agree with your "new relationship" assessment, and I think this is why poly people coined the whole new-relationship-energy term (I don't make poly a subculture for myself, this is just stuff I've gleaned from other people online - it's just not my desire to have to find others who are soooo happy to be poly for purposes other than fucking...ha) there IS a duration where you're wrapped up in the new person, it can be really trying on the other person, but it does level off and get sane and real life recommences. It's just good to communicate, as you pointed out, so when everyone gets grounded again everyone likes the pattern that life has re-emerged into.

 

[DeservingBitch]

When I enter a new relationship I make this stuff clear not because I'm a legislative fetishist or anything, but because I had to go through the end of an important relationship and a bunch of hard realizations to figure out that exclusive relationships have not do not and will not work for me. Not everything has to be negotiated, but huge glaring problems have to come out first. It's one of the FEW things I'm pretty damn sure of. Like the fact that I've never grown into liking button mushrooms, they're still as vile as they were when I was 5.

Me dating a mono person would be like me dating a gay man. We're over before we're up and off. It's not something like who's going to stay home with the kids, a serious relationship issue to consider, but it's a fundamental disconnect in how I define love, honor, self-respect and how people who tie those things together with sexual/romantic exclusivity feel about them.

Exactly. Same experience here. Asking me to be mono is like asking me to be straight. Not happening, no matter how special the person asking it of me is.

 

[the captians wench]

I really like what you have to say. It's totally stupid to progress with too tight a road map or script of how you think youre relationships will be, people are filled with surprises and for those who think they know themselves or their SO so very well, life has some ugly ones to show you you don't.

When I enter a new relationship I make this stuff clear not because I'm a legislative fetishist or anything, but because I had to go through the end of an important relationship and a bunch of hard realizations to figure out that exclusive relationships have not do not and will not work for me. Not everything has to be negotiated, but huge glaring problems have to come out first. It's one of the FEW things I'm pretty damn sure of. Like the fact that I've never grown into liking button mushrooms, they're still as vile as they were when I was 5.

Me dating a mono person would be like me dating a gay man. We're over before we're up and off. It's not something like who's going to stay home with the kids, a serious relationship issue to consider, but it's a fundamental disconnect in how I define love, honor, self-respect and how people who tie those things together with sexual/romantic exclusivity feel about them. It's like trying to marry someone in a culture so radically different from mine that we'll never agree on anything. I know such relationships work and exist, but they're not something I'm interested in pursuing personally.

I do realize that the biggies need to be discussed. I'm a pain slut, if you are not willing to at least give me a tug on my hair while you pound my ass then we probably aren't going to work. Sintualists have their place, and I'm learning to apriciate the feel of a feather as much as I do the sting of a cane, but if you don't have a sadistic bone in your body, then we're probably best realizing this is doomed before it's begun.

More what I'm getting at (and not to be picking on her but it is what brought this to my mind) is where FI said that her master is not currently seeing anyone else but they have discussed the role that person will play.

So let's say I have a dom. he's my alpha, while he has a live in making me a secondary relationship. We agree that I'm free to find other relationships should I choose to do so, but in this initial discourse we agree that even if I bring others in, he will remain my alpha and will always come before any secondary relationships. I search out and find another. We hit it off big time, and realize that we would like to take things to a live in situation. Obviously that would bump him up to alpha status. So we all have a "family" meeting and decide okay I'm moving in with dom #2 making him #1, leaving the dom formerly known as dom #1 betrayed and perhaps a bit more hurt because I had promised that he would always be #1 even if I brought in a new guy.

We couldn't have known how I would feel towards the new guy. And it wouldn't be fair to me for dom #1 to say "no you can't have a more serious relationship and have some one to come home to at night and wake up with you the next morning" when that's exactly what he has. And it's not fair to him that I promised him I would always be happy with the situation and I would always hold him above others and then I click with some one else and want to explore that and demote his status. I would think it would leave for a lot more hurt feelings. But like I said, I'm an emotional creature. Of course I'm also (almost always) very open about how I feel. I like to talk things out be they good or bad, I feel it's best to have my emotions out in the open, so he probably would have known that this change was coming from an early moment.

 

[DeservingBitch]

We couldn't have known how I would feel towards the new guy. And it wouldn't be fair to me for dom #1 to say "no you can't have a more serious relationship and have some one to come home to at night and wake up with you the next morning" when that's exactly what he has. And it's not fair to him that I promised him I would always be happy with the situation and I would always hold him above others and then I click with some one else and want to explore that and demote his status. I would think it would leave for a lot more hurt feelings. But like I said, I'm an emotional creature. Of course I'm also (almost always) very open about how I feel. I like to talk things out be they good or bad, I feel it's best to have my emotions out in the open, so he probably would have known that this change was coming from an early moment.

That's why one of my few rules that I go by is to never make a promise (such as your example) that I'm not damn sure I can and will honor. I can promise to do everything in my power to take your feelings and needs into account when making the best decision for myself. But I'll never promise to be a martyr in order to avoid hurting you. Promising someone that I will always be there for them and that I will always love them the most is not a promise I can honestly believe to honor no matter what. So I won't make it.

 

[Netzach]

I do realize that the biggies need to be discussed. I'm a pain slut, if you are not willing to at least give me a tug on my hair while you pound my ass then we probably aren't going to work. Sintualists have their place, and I'm learning to apriciate the feel of a feather as much as I do the sting of a cane, but if you don't have a sadistic bone in your body, then we're probably best realizing this is doomed before it's begun.

More what I'm getting at (and not to be picking on her but it is what brought this to my mind) is where FI said that her master is not currently seeing anyone else but they have discussed the role that person will play.

So let's say I have a dom. he's my alpha, while he has a live in making me a secondary relationship. We agree that I'm free to find other relationships should I choose to do so, but in this initial discourse we agree that even if I bring others in, he will remain my alpha and will always come before any secondary relationships. I search out and find another. We hit it off big time, and realize that we would like to take things to a live in situation. Obviously that would bump him up to alpha status. So we all have a "family" meeting and decide okay I'm moving in with dom #2 making him #1, leaving the dom formerly known as dom #1 betrayed and perhaps a bit more hurt because I had promised that he would always be #1 even if I brought in a new guy.

We couldn't have known how I would feel towards the new guy. And it wouldn't be fair to me for dom #1 to say "no you can't have a more serious relationship and have some one to come home to at night and wake up with you the next morning" when that's exactly what he has. And it's not fair to him that I promised him I would always be happy with the situation and I would always hold him above others and then I click with some one else and want to explore that and demote his status. I would think it would leave for a lot more hurt feelings. But like I said, I'm an emotional creature. Of course I'm also (almost always) very open about how I feel. I like to talk things out be they good or bad, I feel it's best to have my emotions out in the open, so he probably would have known that this change was coming from an early moment.

I totally feel you on that too. It's something we just have to chalk up to the fact that relationships and people change. Sometimes in big ways that mean a relationship which was thought to change along with it, can't and don't and they end then. People in them can be more or less OK with it. People outside have to then oooo ooo and make object lessons out of what assholes person A B C or D is. Sometimes the people in the whole thing make the drama, sometimes they don't. I always assume multi-fault clusterfuck and life goes on.

 

[Netzach]

That's why one of my few rules that I go by is to never make a promise (such as your example) that I'm not damn sure I can and will honor. I can promise to do everything in my power to take your feelings and needs into account when making the best decision for myself. But I'll never promise to be a martyr in order to avoid hurting you. Promising someone that I will always be there for them and that I will always love them the most is not a promise I can honestly believe to honor no matter what. So I won't make it.

I don't mind making promises on the large order. I think love can have a kind of faith and risk taking, and just because people traded promises with me at other points that didn't work out that way, it doesn't mean they didn't mean them at the time or that they don't matter even now. But I let a lot of stuff go like that.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I don't mind making promises on the large order. I think love can have a kind of faith and risk taking, and just because people traded promises with me at other points that didn't work out that way, it doesn't mean they didn't mean them at the time or that they don't matter even now. But I let a lot of stuff go like that.

Oh certainly. I actually see love as mostly about faith and risk taking. But there's faith and there's wishful thinking.
I also prefer to make plans for the future, imagine a future with my partner(s), and work toward that common future, rather than making promises. Not that promises don't have a place at all in relationship -- but it's certainly not what I focus on.

 

[the captians wench]

Oh certainly. I actually see love as mostly about faith and risk taking. But there's faith and there's wishful thinking.
I also prefer to make plans for the future, imagine a future with my partner(s), and work toward that common future, rather than making promises. Not that promises don't have a place at all in relationship -- but it's certainly not what I focus on.

i think this is more what I stand on. Broken promises hurt more than unachived goals and well ment intentions, I think.

The goal is for you to be mine for ever, if something changes that, well we gave it our best shot let's keep in touch.

I promise you will be mine forever -> how could you ever leave me?

wording can make a huge difference.

 

[DeservingBitch]

i think this is more what I stand on. Broken promises hurt more than unachived goals and well ment intentions, I think.

The goal is for you to be mine for ever, if something changes that, well we gave it our best shot let's keep in touch.

I promise you will be mine forever -> how could you ever leave me?

wording can make a huge difference.

Yep. Exactly.

And on the same vein, to me, a promise I make is something I am mostly the only one responsible for and accountable in honoring. A share goal is, well, shared. We work at it together. And we fail or success at it together.

 

[Homburg]

Just wanted to say that there have been some truly excellent posts on this thread. Going poly like we did was one of the most difficult things I've ever undertaken, and I cannot say that it was handled all that well. Live and learn.

 

[Etoile]

First, I'll never understand how any couple thinking of adding a third, believe they can maintain an absolute pecking order. The type of third that can live with being an absolute third is rare. Additionally, emotions and preferences change and are much more fluid in a poly situation. That's the very issue that needs to be understood and accepted by everyone. That there many come a time when one will get more attention. Then it will shift back and the other will get more attention, but in the end it will all balance out [if it's done right and everyone feels secure]

You might "think" you're going to keep a pecking order, but the truth is in a D/s type of relationship the Dominant is going to have preferences and they will change in a fluid manner. You're never going to get a dominant to get on some schedule where it's a "Ok, it's Tuesday it must be time to spend with X". Preferences that will change back and forth and the pecking order one month might change the next. It's fluid. That's the nature of poly.

Wow, my poly triad must be rare. Mine is almost the complete opposite of what you describe. Wife and I have been together nearly 10 years, C. and I have been together 7.5 years, and we've been a triad for...4-5 years, I think. I guess there's always somebody who has to ignore the usual advice.