Pondering on heels and corsets

[kittyn_]

First, sorry this ended up being so long:

On the women dressing vs men being, well, men, thing, I can see your point.

While it probably does have something to do with women not being as obsessed with the visual effects of clothing on men, I'd assume it's more that no one has ever looked at most men and gone "You look like shit. Go, try out wearing a pair of nice pants and something besides a tee shirt."

Women, from the time they start talking to each other as little girls, compete in ways soo different from guys that it just makes us more aware of what we look like. Little boys? Cars, trains, sports stuff, and superheros. Little girls have make up kits, princess costumes, and dolls. Girls are encouraged to be aware of the effect their appearance has on others, and get critiqued on it from very early on.

The differences in socialization of course ends up with girls comparing outfits, trashing the unliked chick's fashion choices, etc, while guys, in my observation, hardly ever get past 'You need to shower' in conversations when it comes to how people perceive them.

I'm aware there are exceptions, but I have never seen a male stress about how he looks before leaving the house unless it's for a special occasion, or occasionally for work if they're expecting a 'big boss' in that day.
So, my opinion is just that males see their appearance as a non-issue, don't think about it, they're decent, and that means that all the bases are covered. They've never had the experience of going out fully dressed and noticing the response so it just doesn't register with them.

May not make much sense, and surely isn't a 'fair' thing, but short of laying out the clothes for my male daily, I just deal with it. In return, don't complain if I spend the day in a pair of pj pants, a cami, and flip flops every so often.

 

[Netzach]

There's always been an idea that a man's man is completely unconcerned with visual appearance, but it's just not the case.

Everyone is concerned with appearance, to the point where certain people stress about looking like they're not stressing about it.

The same guy who wears a T shirt and jeans every day looks at another guy in T shirt and jeans and scoffs at his choice of T shirt. Or the level at which his pants sit on his waist.

There's always a message being sent, and if we're honest we admit it.

 

[00Syd]

Men are concerned with visual appearance, but I get the impression that comfort is a more pressing concern. Around here there are certainly men who dress up in a suit to go to munches and parties, the same way there are plenty of guys who get decked out in leather and latex. But there are also a lot of guys who reject the pressure to 'dress up' at parties (most of which have a dress code of some nature) because they want to be comfortable when they play, and they are most comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt.

Interestingly, the most resistance to dressing up for a party has come from the riggers camp. Other guys, tops and bottoms, seem to generally be much more comfortable dressing up than the rope guys do.

 

[Netzach]

Men are concerned with visual appearance, but I get the impression that comfort is a more pressing concern. Around here there are certainly men who dress up in a suit to go to munches and parties, the same way there are plenty of guys who get decked out in leather and latex. But there are also a lot of guys who reject the pressure to 'dress up' at parties (most of which have a dress code of some nature) because they want to be comfortable when they play, and they are most comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt.

Interestingly, the most resistance to dressing up for a party has come from the riggers camp. Other guys, tops and bottoms, seem to generally be much more comfortable dressing up than the rope guys do.

I understand this. When I go all nawa shibari I'm always in business casual, slacks, hose, shoes kicked off, blouse. I like being put together, but it's got to be comfortable.

 

[kittyn_]

The only time I've ever heard my male say something about another mans option in clothes, it was a comment on 'What kind of guy listens to Brittney enough to wear her on their shirt?' Oh, and that his brother needed a belt, which is a frequent statement.

I guess the main thing I was trying to say was that most males don't seem to have an actual clue about how different types of clothes (suit v. tee and jeans, etc) play on how they are seen by people outside of their normal groups. Mine understands that he's more likely to be complimented when he's freshly showered, shaved, and in decent clothes, but seems downright confused about why it is that wearing dress pants and a button up is actually any different than wearing nice jeans and a new shirt in a social setting. He also just doesn't 'get' why I would rather know where we're going for dinner than be suprised since I would like to dress according to the setting. Most of the men I know and associate with seem to be more of the same, where while they realize there is a time and place for dressing decently, they don't know the when, where, or why of it, or that it actually reflects on them when they get it wrong.

 

[Primalex]

As someone who used to wear corsets full-time, I find the idea that they have any inherent connotation strange.

I find it strange to assume clothes have none. Clothes have been used to express an inherent connotation for..hmm..I think at least 3000 years.

 

[Netzach]

The only time I've ever heard my male say something about another mans option in clothes, it was a comment on 'What kind of guy listens to Brittney enough to wear her on their shirt?' Oh, and that his brother needed a belt, which is a frequent statement.

I guess the main thing I was trying to say was that most males don't seem to have an actual clue about how different types of clothes (suit v. tee and jeans, etc) play on how they are seen by people outside of their normal groups. Mine understands that he's more likely to be complimented when he's freshly showered, shaved, and in decent clothes, but seems downright confused about why it is that wearing dress pants and a button up is actually any different than wearing nice jeans and a new shirt in a social setting. He also just doesn't 'get' why I would rather know where we're going for dinner than be suprised since I would like to dress according to the setting. Most of the men I know and associate with seem to be more of the same, where while they realize there is a time and place for dressing decently, they don't know the when, where, or why of it, or that it actually reflects on them when they get it wrong.

Well there are extremes. I also know women who know about as much as T girls diving into it late in life - ie. nothing. No rules. Not how to apply lipstick. Nothing. They don't care. Consummate girl nerds more than tomboys.

Actually on a lot of days this is me, ha.

 

[Primalex]

it actually reflects on them when they get it wrong.

I think women are worried that it reflects on them when the partner is not dressed properly. As you have figured out on your own, when most guys have no clue, who should reflect it then? The other guy doesn't have a clue either.

 

[kittyn_]

Well there are extremes. I also know women who know about as much as T girls diving into it late in life - ie. nothing. No rules. Not how to apply lipstick. Nothing. They don't care. Consummate girl nerds more than tomboys.

Actually on a lot of days this is me, ha.

As a girl nerd (Well, girl geek at least) who does know these things and simply ignores them normally, I don't see the issue sometimes. If I feel like it, YAY, if I don't, meh. I just like the power and symbolism implied by how people present themselves, and sitting around trying to figure out why Especially when it gives me an excuse not to be studying for my final tomorrow.

 

[Netzach]

I think women are worried that it reflects on them when the partner is not dressed properly. As you have figured out on your own, when most guys have no clue, who should reflect it then? The other guy doesn't have a clue either.

I think this is kind of dated - a *little* dated.

Most women definitely do strive to get that feeling of "matching" going.

Not every guy I am around is completely off the bell curve of masculinity and they all have likes and dislikes and consistent *looks* and notice things that don't fit in to their notion of what's fashionable or fashion correct, there are things that, if worn, would be noticed, even remarked on.

 

[Netzach]

As a girl nerd (Well, girl geek at least) who does know these things and simply ignores them normally, I don't see the issue sometimes. If I feel like it, YAY, if I don't, meh. I just like the power and symbolism implied by how people present themselves, and sitting around trying to figure out why Especially when it gives me an excuse not to be studying for my final tomorrow.

Heh, yeah. But you probably know someone who doesn't choose it - who just does not KNOW either way because this is of no interest to her. Those are the kind of girl I'm talking about.

 

[kittyn_]

Oh yeah, I know them. Kinda envious of them, in a weird way.

 

[kittyn_]

I think women are worried that it reflects on them when the partner is not dressed properly. As you have figured out on your own, when most guys have no clue, who should reflect it then? The other guy doesn't have a clue either.

Eh, if we're going somewhere I know his normal way of dress just isn't going to work, yea, I'll urge him elsewhere in the spectrum, but overall, it doesn't bother me that much if he opts out of listening to my recommendation. If he's clean, covered, and not wearing work clothes, I consider it good enough, the majority of the time. If it reflects on me, so be it. If I were that worried about how his looks would reflect upon me as an extension of him, I wouldn't have gone for a gamer guy who is more comfortable in a game shop basement than he is about anywhere else. If I take him elsewhere, I know his faults, comfort zones, and quirky attitude may not be perfect for the setting, but if his presentation is off, who cares really? If you're rude enough to actually comment on it, you're likely to get a smile and a polite 'Well, I'll make sure to keep that in mind.'

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well there are extremes. I also know women who know about as much as T girls diving into it late in life - ie. nothing. No rules. Not how to apply lipstick. Nothing. They don't care. Consummate girl nerds more than tomboys.

Actually on a lot of days this is me, ha.

this is me too, lol. i know nothing about make-up...any kind of make-up...literally NOTHING. when most chicks say "oh i don't wear make-up," i've learned that they really mean they just wear some lip gloss and a bit of foundation to cover dark spots or scars, and to dress up a touch of eye stuff. that is not what i mean. i mean that i know absolutely nothing about how to buy make-up, how to apply it, what things are called and their purpose, etc. that whole world is mystifying and intimidating to me, kinda like when i watch Daddy do the taxes. some part of me deep down actually wants this knowledge, to be able to use for special occasions or something...but i truly feel it may just be totally beyond my capabilities or emotional tolerance level.

and as far as this stuff about men not caring how they look, i agree with Netz there as well. most of the men i've encountered in life definitely care about how they dress, how they're groomed, etc. my Master would never leave the house, even to go to the corner drug store, looking shabby or unpresentable. He is also an expert at knowing the appropriate style of dress for any occasion...whereas i remain, sadly, clueless. and i must admit this, with no bias whatsoever, that he always looks good. He looks impeccable in his neatly pressed slacks and perfectly form fitting sweaters that he wears to work, impeccable in his also neatly ironed jeans and casual (but not really) button-down that he wears to the sports bar or local munch, and impeccable even in the athletic tank and shorts that he wears to mow the lawn. He has a way of always looking refined and put together no matter what he's wearing, which is pretty irritating actually lol.

 

[Etoile]

when most chicks say "oh i don't wear make-up," i've learned that they really mean they just wear some lip gloss and a bit of foundation to cover dark spots or scars, and to dress up a touch of eye stuff. that is not what i mean. i mean that i know absolutely nothing about how to buy make-up, how to apply it, what things are called and their purpose, etc. that whole world is mystifying and intimidating to me

Not me girl...when I say no makeup, I mean NO MAKEUP! LOL. I'm in the same boat as you. When I want to look really extra super nice, like when we went to my wife's company's holiday party last year, I wore...lipstick. That's all I know how to put on. And the colors I like, I'm told, are too dark for me...but I wear them anyway. Because all I know how to wear is lipstick. LOL.

 

[rida]

Here's a point of departure.
Why is the power of looking sexy and hot the main/first/often only place that women get to go in the scene?

Looking hot IS a kind of power trip and it's a good one.
I like it because a lot of vanilla women like to look sexy and hot and it's a fun foray into playing on the top for a lot more people than would be attracted to SM or bondage as a top ordinarily - being worshipped for your beauty is a nice little gateway drug. I like it for its own sake, if I lived alone in cat lady isolation I'd still have corsets and heels.

Yes.
As I've never been to a scene event, so my "dressing hot and sexy" is still limited to what is allowed in normal vanilla establishments.

I would, however LOVE to go to an event and, as a Domme, don a totally white angelic look (a bit like the White Queen in Alice) and have my boy-toy all decked up in a black suit (like MIB) or even the biker look
Confusing preexisting ideas is something I love.

Why is is that male dominants are usually/often COMPLETELY sans clue about the power of the visual, or the question of charm?

Women aren't as visual as men, but we're not BLIND.

It's as if women, as Dominants, have gotten the message - ok, creating visual hotness will put your subject in the mood, you can control what kind, dose them with it, if you will...yes, these threads are not practical, but the way they affect people is advantageous.

and male Doms get:

Dude, who wears a suit? You're gonna wear one for her cause she likes it? Heh. pussy.

Or some version thereof. Or whatever messaging results in "it's OK to generally look like ass and expect women to fall to the floor at your feet."

Not that everyone does. And not that all women have suit fetishes, though I hear it commonly and it seems to have the most resistance - I HEAR IT COMMONLY - and NEVER see a suit at a munch. (unless I'm there making that happen.) Some guys at munches know how not to look like ass, but I've noticed it's not a majority.

The male birds have the rockin' feathers.

Nuff said.

That is why I go for the well-dressed men. And I also have no problem in giving suggestions. Both Hubby and the Sadist are nice dressers and they both notice the effort I put into my own attire. win-win


I'm all for comfy when in a totally laid back situation though: give me the beach and I'm wearing bikini, Ts and flip-flip. Or give me a day at home and I'm in my pjs/nightgown all day long! And for a quick run to the corner store? I've been known to put sweats on my pjs

Make up is something I like but I need time to do, so mostly I don't.

 

[Winter_of_62]

I just think they're a time honoured symbol of femininity.

And now, can be used to enhance that, either in a powerful context (Dommes) or a softer context (subs/slaves)

I agree with Lizzie. I don't see heels or corsets as Domme or submissive. I see them both as very feminine - and that is a good thing on either side of the equation.