Possible use cases for second person POV?

[ADirtyPerv]

Or both…

We note with interest, our dear @StillStunned, the pensive look on your face, the furrow of your brow, as you tap your pencil on the tablet before you, the blank page calling to you as you consider the challenge. Second person with the Royal We, dare I?

We smile as your mind spins with ideas as the graphite tears at the blank page before you and words slowly take form. A devious chuckle escapes your lips as your missive slowly comes to life, as your muse sings the song you know so well.

We feel your sadistic joy as the page fills, laughing as you relish the pain soon to be unleashed on those unfortunate enough to read your tale of woe.

Laughing maniacally, you add the last period to your putrid tome, knowing they won’t be able to resist.

Satisfied that our work is done, that the evil has been spread, we cackle silently in the nether reaches of your soul. Yes, only you are truly capable of the depravity that is second person.
Well done, our herald, relish your accomplishment. You know you want to.

You did it. You found the fucking narrator we've all been looking for in 2P narratives. That's always the question -- who in the everloving fuck is talking?

"We" are.

 

[Britva415]

the fucking narrator we've all been looking for in 2P narratives. That's always the question -- who in the everloving fuck is talking?

I always thought it was the Canadian girlfriend

 

[RocketGrunt]

2nd Person is used pretty frequently on the Mind Control stories board.

For that particular line of fetishes, the person being hypnotized is often "you," the reader. Well, not often, but way more often than 2nd person is used in other contexts.

Less frequently, but still noticeable is its use on the Nonconsent/Reluctance. Again, the victim is "you" often enough to be noteworthy.

In both cases, the fantasy is about having something done to the protagonist, and so having the protagonist be the reader is a valid extension of that fantasy.

 

[anthrodisiac]

2nd Person is used pretty frequently on the Mind Control stories board.

For that particular line of fetishes, the person being hypnotized is often "you," the reader. Well, not often, but way more often than 2nd person is used in other contexts.

Less frequently, but still noticeable is its use on the Nonconsent/Reluctance. Again, the victim is "you" often enough to be noteworthy.

In both cases, the fantasy is about having something done to the protagonist, and so having the protagonist be the reader is a valid extension of that fantasy.

It tends to work better in those contexts because 2nd person horror tends to be fairly visceral with little to no description of the victim. It's more about the torture/torment/fucked-up-ness than the actual fleshcase.

Can't believe I just used the word "fleshcase."

 

[TheLobster]

Before that movie, nobody in the USA used their thumb for that. Ever since that movie, everyone has switched from holding up three fingers to using two fingers and a thumb, as if they had been doing it all along.

It might me a meme, but it’s actually an easier and better way to finger-count.

Most people don’t have the motor control needed to extend their ring fingers independently of the others, or far enough to match the positions of other fingers while counting, so replacing it with the thumb makes perfect sense.

Anyway, I hope this helps in fingering 2P away from this thread

 

[StillStunned]

Even more off topic, that reminds me of how the Inglourious Basterds finger-counting-to-three thing turned Americans into posers. Before that movie, nobody in the USA used their thumb for that. Ever since that movie, everyone has switched from holding up three fingers to using two fingers and a thumb, as if they had been doing it all along.

My wife and I discovered that difference between us 20+ years ago. Tried it out on friends and colleagues from around the world, to everyone's amazement and hilarity. Presumably it gradually made its way over to Hollywood.

 

[StillStunned]

You did it. You found the fucking narrator we've all been looking for in 2P narratives. That's always the question -- who in the everloving fuck is talking?

"We" are.

The Hivemind is always watching!

 

[Britva415]

My wife and I discovered that difference between us 20+ years ago. Tried it out on friends and colleagues from around the world, to everyone's amazement and hilarity. Presumably it gradually made its way over to Hollywood.

I guess you didn't see the movie in question? It was a significant plot point.

Anyway, I feel like the subsequent hipsterism wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been a tArAnTiNo film.

 

[RocketGrunt]

It's a cultural difference that they teach you in first semester German. So that whole section of the movie was like the director showing that he knew a fact that anyone who had taken German as a freshman would know.

 

[Katie_Mae]

There's a very erotic (to me) story I very much enjoyed, and it's written in second person.
I thought I might look at your three bullet points and see if they aligned with the story I read

• Your target audience is someone with a specific fantasy, and your goal is to immerse them in it

I'm into the general kink, but not the specific fantasy/sex acts. I did find it immersive though.

• You primarily focus on describing the situation and setting they are in, while only minimally describing their actions/feelings

The main character was blindfolded, so there was no visual descriptions. The story focused on feelings, thoughts and actions, and the senses of touch and taste.

• You are writing something short and sweet, i.e. flash fiction

It was very short, under 2k words.

Alternately, how would you go about it instead?

I've written one second person POV story.
I actually wrote a story prompt for my writing friends, and then went and followed up by writing the actual story in the chat. Basically, I wrote my own prompt, lol.
The story was written very quickly.
It's short (about 1500 words). The story focused on the events which took place, there was description of the setting. There were few visuals, I'm not a very visual person naturally and this story was just dashed off in a chat so I wasn't really thinking about it. Most of the story was describing actions and feelings.

____

In regards to the story I read, while I do think that the pov did add to the immersiveness (for me) I don't think that was the sole reason for me felling immersed in the story, or even the main reason. I think what did it more for me was the blindfold, and the close pov. Like I mentioned, I'm not a visual person, and I also don't find the visuals erotic. The blindfold and removal of visuals allowed me to immerse myself in the situation better, and it allowed me to focus on what the main character was thinking and feeling. This could have been achieved in any close pov.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

I've been reading some of the posts on here regarding second person POV (and the hate for it), and it got me thinking. Could second person work well if:

• Your target audience is someone with a specific fantasy, and your goal is to immerse them in it
• You primarily focus on describing the situation and setting they are in, while only minimally describing their actions/feelings
• You are writing something short and sweet, i.e. flash fiction

As an example, say you are writing for someone who has a caging/confinement fantasy. So you describe the cage, what's in the cage, the point of view from inside the cage, and maybe provide a little bit of story for a backdrop. You don't spend too much time describing how your reader is feeling necessarily--that part is up to them. There is not much plot to speak of, it's mostly just heavily descriptive of a single situation or moment in time.

How is second person POV in a case like this? Alternately, how would you go about it instead?

I have seen very few second person narratives that did anything but frustrate me, and I think you hit the nail on the head as to why. The moment the narrative includes anything that doesn't jive with me as the reader, boom, immersion is broken and the entire narrative is useless. The writer doesn't know how I'm feeling, and even if they did, it won't be identical to the way the next reader is feeling, and so on. This extends to anything involving a feeling or what 'your' response to any particular stimulus would be, or even dialogue, since people may have differing manners of speech.

There's no way to make it feel genuine, because 1. the writer can't know the reader as well as they know their own characters and 2. unless the story is written for one specific person, the 'you' character is a different person depending who's reading it. Assuming all readers will feel the same way and telling them how they're supposed to be feeling is just presumptuous. A third person narrative works because even if the reader wouldn't respond in exactly a certain way, it's hot to see the character respond that way. But when it's second person, the writer is making ME, me PERSONALLY, one of their prosaic puppets, and I don't dance the way they may think I do. Now multiply that by however many thousand.

I have, to my knowledge, only ever once used a second person pronoun outside of dialogue, and that was in a semi-informal first-person narrative where the narrator has just finished describing her backstory, her feelings, and what her unspoken feelings were during a certain encounter and then recounts 'We discussed it afterward and I explained to him everything that I've just told you'. IMO, that's the one legitimate use of 'you' in a narrative, where you're addressing the reader AS a reader and as nothing more. No assumptions, no forcing someone into a role they may not fit, just the simple knowledge that they're reading your story. Even then, I think it really only works in a less formal narrative style.

 

[RocketGrunt]

Assuming all readers will feel the same way and telling them how they're supposed to be feeling is just presumptuous.

Not necessarily. It's a commonly used trope in mind control fiction and noncon fiction because being told hold to feel is an integral part of the fantasy.

 

[StillStunned]

I have seen very few second person narratives that did anything but frustrate me, and I think you hit the nail on the head as to why. The moment the narrative includes anything that doesn't jive with me as the reader, boom, immersion is broken and the entire narrative is useless. The writer doesn't know how I'm feeling, and even if they did, it won't be identical to the way the next reader is feeling, and so on. This extends to anything involving a feeling or what 'your' response to any particular stimulus would be, or even dialogue, since people may have differing manners of speech.

There's no way to make it feel genuine, because 1. the writer can't know the reader as well as they know their own characters and 2. unless the story is written for one specific person, the 'you' character is a different person depending who's reading it. Assuming all readers will feel the same way and telling them how they're supposed to be feeling is just presumptuous. A third person narrative works because even if the reader wouldn't respond in exactly a certain way, it's hot to see the character respond that way. But when it's second person, the writer is making ME, me PERSONALLY, one of their prosaic puppets, and I don't dance the way they may think I do. Now multiply that by however many thousand.

Depending on the story, the narrative might also be interpreted as "imagine yourself in this situation". The reader is asked to go along with the conceit, to place themselves in the position of the character. Not being told how they're supposed to feel or react, but invited to share the experience of the character.

Does it always work? No. Can it work very effectively? Yes. But it requires the reader's willingness to cooperate.

In that respect, it's really no different from 1P, where the narrator is more clearly defined as a character but the reader gets to experience all their thoughts and emotions.

 

[CalBishForNow]

To change the subject, it's also weird how the whole "if I had a nickel..." cliché has been completely replaced with "I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice." I don't know what that's from but there's people going around now who don't even have any awareness of the original "I'd be rich" version.

It's from the Disney show Phineas and Ferb. Here's the first or best-known clip, but it was also used on other occasions on that show.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

Depending on the story, the narrative might also be interpreted as "imagine yourself in this situation". The reader is asked to go along with the conceit, to place themselves in the position of the character. Not being told how they're supposed to feel or react, but invited to share the experience of the character.

Does it always work? No. Can it work very effectively? Yes. But it requires the reader's willingness to cooperate.

In that respect, it's really no different from 1P, where the narrator is more clearly defined as a character but the reader gets to experience all their thoughts and emotions.

I guess I'm just too much of a control freak for that to speak to me...

 

[SimonDoom]

Or both…

We note with interest, our dear @StillStunned, the pensive look on your face, the furrow of your brow, as you tap your pencil on the tablet before you, the blank page calling to you as you consider the challenge. Second person with the Royal We, dare I?

We smile as your mind spins with ideas as the graphite tears at the blank page before you and words slowly take form. A devious chuckle escapes your lips as your missive slowly comes to life, as your muse sings the song you know so well.

We feel your sadistic joy as the page fills, laughing as you relish the pain soon to be unleashed on those unfortunate enough to read your tale of woe.

Laughing maniacally, you add the last period to your putrid tome, knowing they won’t be able to resist.

Satisfied that our work is done, that the evil has been spread, we cackle silently in the nether reaches of your soul. Yes, only you are truly capable of the depravity that is second person.
Well done, our herald, relish your accomplishment. You know you want to.

This is fun, but it's not second person. It's first person plural. The "point of view" is not "you" but "we." "You" is being addressed. That doesn't make it second person POV. This short passage is told from the POV of "we," which makes it first person plural.

This is a sticky point in these threads about second person all the time. People think they've written or read second-person POV stories because the stories features narrative like "I watch you taking your clothes off," and that's not second person at all. It's first person POV, addressed to a second person, but it's no more second person than any standard first-person narrative where others are referred to in the third person rather than the second person.

True second person POV is rare, for good reason.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

This is fun, but it's not second person. It's first person plural. The "point of view" is not "you" but "we." "You" is being addressed. That doesn't make it second person POV. This short passage is told from the POV of "we," which makes it first person plural.

This is a sticky point in these threads about second person all the time. People think they've written or read second-person POV stories because the stories features narrative like "I watch you taking your clothes off," and that's not second person at all. It's first person POV, addressed to a second person, but it's no more second person than any standard first-person narrative where others are referred to in the third person rather than the second person.

True second person POV is rare, for good reason.

First person plural would indicate the royal We was acting instead of observing and that 'you' were inside the collective.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

First person plural would indicate the royal We was acting instead of observing and that 'you' were inside the collective.

By definition, first person plural is just "we". There is no need for crowns or kingdoms.

--Annie

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

By definition, first person plural is just "we". There is no need for crowns or kingdoms.

--Annie

The distinction is whether or not the We is involved in the action or just observing. In my example the 'We' is an observer, the narrator, where you are the one doing the actions. 'We' is specifically and intentionally detached from the actions that you are performing. It's an odd corner case, but it's valid and it is second person, not first person plural.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I was speaking of the grammatical term.

 

[SimonDoom]

The distinction is whether or not the We is involved in the action or just observing. In my example the 'We' is an observer, the narrator, where you are the one doing the actions. 'We' is specifically and intentionally detached from the actions that you are performing. It's an odd corner case, but it's valid and it is second person, not first person plural.

No, that's not it at all. "POV" is the point of view of the person telling the story. It has nothing to do with the actor. If I narrate a story about something that I am watching you do, it's first person point of view, not second person point of view. It's no different from substituting "he" for "you." In that case we would all recognize it as first person point of view.

Look at the words: "Point of view." That's the rub. You can tell the point of view by determining whose thoughts are being narrated. Who is behind the camera? The person being photographed has nothing to do with POV.

 

[SimonDoom]

Here are a couple of online references to what is second person POV:

https://www.novel-software.com/second-person-point-of-view/

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/gram...son/?msockid=3bfbfdbac335689b3827e897c2b66915

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/point-of-view-first-second-third-person-difference

The best full-length novel example of 2d person POV I can think of is Jay McInerny's novel Bright Lights Big City. It's cited in the third link above. There is no use, to my recollection, of the pronoun "I" in the narration of the novel. The use of "I" generally converts it into first person, because while the story may be about "you," it's told by "I," and that's exactly what first person POV is. The two giveaways are 1) the pronouns used, and 2) whose thoughts are being described. If "I" narrates a story about "you" and tells the reader what "I" thinks while describing "you's" actions, you know it's first person POV, not second person POV. If the story somehow magically delves into "you's" thoughts, then it's more complicated, or probably just sloppy.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

No, that's not it at all. "POV" is the point of view of the person telling the story. It has nothing to do with the actor. If I narrate a story about something that I am watching you do, it's first person point of view, not second person point of view. It's no different from substituting "he" for "you." In that case we would all recognize it as first person point of view.

Look at the words: "Point of view." That's the rub. You can tell the point of view by determining whose thoughts are being narrated. Who is behind the camera? The person being photographed has nothing to do with POV.

I think you're mistaken. The voice is determined by the narratee, not the narrator. In first person, you'd be correct as 'I' would be the actor and the narrator.
In my example, if I change 'you' to Jack, it becomes third person. If I remove the separation between the narrator and 'you', devolving it to purely 'we did this,' then it then becomes first person plural. If I remove the self identification of the narrator as We, I think you'd agree the snippet is in fact second person. Again, it is the narratee and the separation of the narrator from the action that keeps this second person.

@StillStunned, by the gods, you have corrupted me. I'm defending second person. Somebody just shoot me, please...

 

[StillStunned]

@StillStunned, by the gods, you have corrupted me. I'm defending second person. Somebody just shoot me, please...

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Somebody just shoot me, please...

If you insist: