Question - Does BDSM facilitate a haven for potential 'abusers' ?

Can it be a haven for abusers? Yes. In my experience, limited though it is, the perceptive subs give wide berth to the Dom/mes who are questionable. And as for the subs who don't? I'll probably get flamed for it, but I think it's a form of social Darwinism.

I would like to add, as I've added before on topics such as these, that while the stereotype of the poor, abused sub still lingers, it irks the living shit out of me. Hell, it may even be true often enough to bear out the stereotype, but it's not true in 100% of the cases.

/end rant

I agree, that stereotype is incredibly annoying. I agree to an extent too that in this community it is often possible to avoid abusers if you are perceptive. I think the trouble for me maybe came from being very young and inexperienced rather than from not being perceptive.
 
I agree, that stereotype is incredibly annoying. I agree to an extent too that in this community it is often possible to avoid abusers if you are perceptive. I think the trouble for me maybe came from being very young and inexperienced rather than from not being perceptive.

*Nods* I've had bad experiences, too. But I do have the balls to say that they were my own fault.

Like I said, Darwinism, to some extent. You live through it, and you learn to make better choices next time. :)
 
*Nods* I've had bad experiences, too. But I do have the balls to say that they were my own fault.

Like I said, Darwinism, to some extent. You live through it, and you learn to make better choices next time. :)

ah, i think i took the way you said Darwinism the first time a little more harshly than it was meant. You're definitely right, you live and you learn. I would make very different choices if I met someone who was abusive like that again. (well, I would make one choice, I would take off my shoes and run away. :rolleyes:)

Having said that I do think that it is when you are at your most vulnerable and least able to make informed choices that you will end up being taken advantage of by abusive people, again, this is true in all walks of life and we cant expect the BDSM community to be any different.
 
ah, i think i took the way you said Darwinism the first time a little more harshly than it was meant. You're definitely right, you live and you learn. I would make very different choices if I met someone who was abusive like that again. (well, I would make one choice, I would take off my shoes and run away. :rolleyes:)

Having said that I do think that it is when you are at your most vulnerable and least able to make informed choices that you will end up being taken advantage of by abusive people, again, this is true in all walks of life and we cant expect the BDSM community to be any different.

Yes, and abusers prey on this concept. Vulnerable people won't look as closely at a situation or be as cautious, oftentimes. It even happens here. Ladies, if you post something about having ended a relationship, watch the assholes who want you to think they're just nice guys offering support come out of the woodwork. ;) The times when we really need to be the most hyper-vigilant are the times in which we often aren't, unfortunately. Luckily, for smart people, they usually only have to make that mistake once.
 
I'd be very surprised if, given the spread of what was once an underground culture into the mainstream, we didn't see more and more "abusers" excusing what they do by claiming it to be bdsm.

However, I think the motivations for abuse and bdsm are totally different, for the most part, outside of a small subset of people. Abusers tend to be reactive and emotionally weak.
 
i am initially curious about how you would you define the attraction to bdsm, from both an objective and subjective point of view?

I can only be subjective in regards to this question. I can not say what the initial attraction to BDSM was for me. I only know that once exposed, it was something that filled a need. It was not a desire to be punished or relive any past trauma. It is a way in which I better understand myself and gain a closer connection to someone else. It is a way to feel an intensity in life that could otherwise not be experienced, it provides a release. Some people jump out of perfectly good airplanes for a rush, I'm into BDSM. The connection between a partner in a BDSM relationship is different than in a non-BDSM relationship. You look at and evaluate from a completely different standpoint. Not to say that my standards for a non-BDSM partner were low, but my standards for a BDSM partner were higher. The connection comes from a deeper level. Choosing wisely was something I did not take lightly. This is someone who I trust with my darkest secrets, my psychological and emotional well-being, and with my life. Yes, I will also trust a non-BDSM partner with the latter two, but in that situation I am not voluntarily placing myself in situations that can test that trust. The opportunity to trust someone to such an extent is a need I felt the drive to fill, to be with someone who knows me on all levels. I needed someone I could feel safe with to explore, experiment, be tested by. For me, this provides growth, builds trust, connection, and also provides an intensity that I found lacking in a non-BDSM environment. Add to that the submissive drive I possess whose voice only became louder in my head over time. Having that voice answered only made things click for me.

my concern lies primarily with the potential of adverse psychological repercussions in individuals that for example may have a history of genuine domestic victimization, and or the perpetration of domestic abuse.

I have no history of abuse, by either parents or partners. I'm one of the many that throw a wrench in the theory by people looking for sensationalism by linking BDSM to abuse. Do I think there would be repercussions for someone with a history of abuse? I would say that depends on the person and the partner they chose. With the wrong partner, those issues could be intensified-just as they could be with a non-BDSM relationship. However, with the right partner, I think it could be beneficial...almost therapeutic. By reliving something along the same lines as past trauma, but in a controlled environment, with someone who is trusted not to go too far, and with the ability to re-script what happens, there could be psychological benefits and help a person regain the part of themselves that he/she lost.

2. my concerns are far less focused on standard practices associated with bdsm, and almost exclusively with what i will consider a very probable potential for an abuser's interpretations of what may be accepted standards of behavior within the bdsm community, to serve his own inclination to use as nothing more than further means to victimize his partner.

Abusers exist in every part of society. To me, an abuser is someone whose intention it is to cause harm without consent. Is there a possibility of abusers to look at BDSM as a way to serve his need to harm? I think that possibility is there. In my search I have spoken with some (and they were very much in the minority) who I have to say scared me. Part of that fear they caused is, I suspect, that they fell into this category. They gave me indication to believe that limits would be ignored and there was no consideration for my input or safety. I simply chose not to go there. I spend enough time talking to someone that if there are issues such as this, they will eventually slip up and reveal it. We are lucky on this board in that we look out for one another. On any topic posted you will find someone who brings up the dangers and things to look out for, whether it be starting a search for a partner or some of the heavier aspects of edge play. Someone who is out simply to harm will have a difficult time finding someone to victimize. Do an internet search and you will find a plethora of articles on spotting "fake Dom's" and abusers in this lifestyle. That being said, someone who may be looked at as an abuser by most because there is a desire to inflict real harm may not have stepped over the line into abuse. It falls under consent. Just as there are some who feel that need, there are others who need to be on the other end. Some people's limits go far beyond what I would feel comfortable or safe with. So would the potential abuser find what he needed in BDSM? If the partner gave consent and finds it mutually beneficial, I have a hard time seeing how I can push my ideas of acceptable on their situation.

Here's my question on this topic. What if a person has desires or urges that involve rape, murder, violence - just off the top of my head. And I don't mean, fantasy. Is playing out those urges with a consensual player in some safe way (obviously not killing the person) a good thing for that person? I mean, is bdsm always a healthy release? Are there any relationships, even if consensual, that just aren't, well, safe or sane?

I believe that playing out those urges is much healthier than subverting them and having them acted out on someone who is not aware and has not given consent. Think about the edge play that is practiced with regularity. Is it safe? Up to the point that someone is hurt. Is it sane? That's up for interpretation. What is sane to me, will not necessarily be sane to you and vice versa. Rape and violence are a part of human history. It is more prevalent in constricting societies which makes me think that the repression without an outlet does increase the chance for it to become an overwhelming urge. BDSM does provide a release for pent up aggression, pain, stress, the list goes on, that would not be acceptable or possible in other venues. Is it a good thing for that person? Personally I think it is as long as it is keeping the desires and urges at bay. If it does not or they find it intensifies then they need to stop and seek help. The urge to murder, well that is a separate thing all its own. I can't see how BDSM would provide any help with that.
 
Can it be a haven for abusers? Yes. In my experience, limited though it is, the perceptive subs give wide berth to the Dom/mes who are questionable. And as for the subs who don't? I'll probably get flamed for it, but I think it's a form of social Darwinism.

I would like to add, as I've added before on topics such as these, that while the stereotype of the poor, abused sub still lingers, it irks the living shit out of me. Hell, it may even be true often enough to bear out the stereotype, but it's not true in 100% of the cases. Can I go on a tangential rant here?

I am living, breathing proof that the stereotype does not bear out in all cases. I am a mostly sane, mostly healthy 24-year-old who was never once abused in any way that she can remember. Incidentally, the degree I have in psych came from a department that was very behaviorally-oriented, though they were swinging toward a more modern cognitive-behavioral approach at that time. For that reason, I don't understand the constant (and outdated) psychoanalytical need to delve into people's backgrounds and childhoods. At some point, if that's what's always focused on, the person will always use it as an excuse--"Oh, I'm this way because of my shitty background,"--rather than being proactive in the way I was trained--"Here's an undesirable behavior. Let's fix it."

So...going with that, let's figure out why I'm wired this way. No abuse, nothing. I was an only child, overprotected, fussed over. My mother, though she could be a pain in the ass, wasn't a terrible mother so much as a clueless one. I idolized my father. (Still do.) I don't have Mommy or Daddy issues. So what's my reason for being the way I am?

I learned at some point, as we all do, that certain things make me feel a certain way. I suppose you can call it an addictive personality, but not really. I'm overweight, mostly because I learned that food tastes REALLY good, and it's way more fun to sit on my ass than exercise. I have more shoes than I'll ever wear because I learned at some point that shopping--especially for shoes--triggers the "feel good" area in my brain. (It's also why I keep my credit cards hidden from myself nowadays, LOL.) I normally limit myself to just a few drinks when I go out because alcohol makes me feel good, at least to a certain extent. Then, of course, it's all downhill from there. I like being tied up and tortured because it makes me feel good. All of these things are learned behaviors. They don't have to be blamed on some occurrence in my childhood. And none of them are bad behaviors, as long as they're done in moderation.

There's not something inherently wrong with me. There's nothing that really needs fixing (except maybe my urge to shop when things get difficult--it's rough on the pocketbook!). There's nothing in my childhood that made me this way. Most of all, I don't need someone with a psych degree looking out for me. I've got my own. By my own standards, I'm fine.

In behavioral psychology, nothing is inherently bad or good. Behaviors are either desirable or undesirable. Some behaviors can be desirable in some cases and undesirable in others. They only become something that needs to be "fixed" when they interfere with the individual's quality of life. So if I'm happy and my life doesn't get screwed up because I let someone tie me up, then I'm perfectly all right, and I don't need anyone to psychoanalyze me.

/end rant

Stunningly well said.

bj
 
My response wasn't a joke.

Why are we so much more concerned with saying "no no no it's always GOOD" than people who should be just as concerned?

Vanillas. The deeply religious. The well employed. Whoever else. Their instances of abuse, however many, are anomalies, whereas ours are endemic to our population?
 
Good thread. I think it absolutely does. Speaking as a femdom lover, there are thousands of sites posted by hot girls trying to turn guys into "paypigs." Emotionally unstable men fall for this sort of stuff all the time. So yes, BDSM is fertile feeding ground for people to get taken advantage of.
 
My response wasn't a joke.

Why are we so much more concerned with saying "no no no it's always GOOD" than people who should be just as concerned?

Vanillas. The deeply religious. The well employed. Whoever else. Their instances of abuse, however many, are anomalies, whereas ours are endemic to our population?

I agree, one setting I really feel there is a very high instance of abuse is in extremely religious settings. Many of my friends growing up came from very religious families who really laid down the law harshly on any perceived sin. They were miserable, unhappy, abusive, intolerable people. Most of those same friends are now dead from suicide and I completely blame their parents and the obsessive religious crap that was beat into their brains on a daily basis. Thinking back on the "what do you fear" thread, I could easily add "religion" in there.

Give me whips and chains and blood over that.....stuff.....any day.
 
Good thread. I think it absolutely does. Speaking as a femdom lover, there are thousands of sites posted by hot girls trying to turn guys into "paypigs." Emotionally unstable men fall for this sort of stuff all the time. So yes, BDSM is fertile feeding ground for people to get taken advantage of.


Porn and BDSM are not one and the same.

Hell, they aren't even related.
 
I really loved Bibunny's reply. I too had a good childhood. Two loving parents who are still my best friends. Lots of support, pampered, etc. My interest in BDSM STARTED very very early although I certainly didn't see them as such then, but it wasn't a result of anything "bad". It's just who I am, what I relate to and what I desire.

I made some mistakes early on in exploring this in the sense of getting involved with the wrong people, however, as awful as those relationships were for me, I don't feel the people INTENDED to hurt me the way they did. The time I was injured by an idiot with a cane was simply a big ego on his part. He thought he knew more than he did and he didn't take responsibility for the result of his ignorance. Asshole, yes. Abuser? No.

The other relationship was again, ego. He was pompous and full of himself and emotionally was not someone who could live up the the responsibility of his side of the coin. Asshole, yes. Abuser? No.

A lot of times the things we label as "abuse" or the people we call abusers are simply bad personality traits like being egotistical, immature, or even simply a difference of opinion in what is the proper way to handle something. I still think both of these guys are jerks and had no business with implements in their hands, but they are not entirely at blame for the relationships. I'm the one that chose to be with them and chose to ignore the warning signs. No excuses!
 
My response wasn't a joke.

Why are we so much more concerned with saying "no no no it's always GOOD" than people who should be just as concerned?

Vanillas. The deeply religious. The well employed. Whoever else. Their instances of abuse, however many, are anomalies, whereas ours are endemic to our population?

Well, we are all very focused on communication, and maybe it lends itself to scrutinizing relationships. I tend to scrutinize and overanalyze everything and everyone. :eek:
 
Good thread. I think it absolutely does. Speaking as a femdom lover, there are thousands of sites posted by hot girls trying to turn guys into "paypigs." Emotionally unstable men fall for this sort of stuff all the time. So yes, BDSM is fertile feeding ground for people to get taken advantage of.


I'm not sure I would necessarily categorise it as abuse. For some it is exactly what they want, who they want to be. Their needs are being met, they are happy...just because it isn't what someone else would choose doesn't necessarily mean it is abuse otherwise we could all be accused of being abused.

Catalina:catroar:
 
"fall for?"

*dies laughing*

Uh, yeah. If there was any ambiguity about how I would be using my slave, it's news to him.
 
Haven’t read any responses, but abuse happens in BDSM just as it happens in any other group.

Theirs a chance for more abuse then normally, due to the nature of the lifestyle, it probably attracts people with ulterior motives. However the necessity of trust for BDSM to function might also eliminate a lot of abuse.

Honestly, I don’t think abusers care enough to research methods of doing it, or putting any thought into getting away with it.

If someone is really concerned about abusive groups I suggest looking into American society, especially when men are taught that when women say ‘no’ it actually means ‘later’, hence they should proceed anyway.
 
If someone is really concerned about abusive groups I suggest looking into American society, especially when men are taught that when women say ‘no’ it actually means ‘later’, hence they should proceed anyway.

Ah, good point. A girl says no but she of course doesn't really mean no so the guy just goes right ahead... Thats something you can see going on at just about any bar any night, vanilla or no.
 
Homburg - Nice to see you post again, RJ.

Shank - hi RJ.

Hey guys. Thanks. Good seeing you both as well.
 
I'm not sure I want to get into some sort of bizarre contest of "how best can we chop up society to find abusers".

I think that everyone, at some point in their life, can be considered an abuser in some fashion by someone's definition. For example, do you drive a poorly tuned car? Forget to recycle plastic bottles? If so, aren't you abusing the environment?

Do we also include acts of terrorism and those who inspire them as variants of abuse? Or regimes such as Nazism, communist Russia, China and the like? Do we include street gangs, drug networks? I know I do.

To me, everyone is capable of abuse in one way or another.

If I focus on just sexual and physical abuse and the people most likely to be abusers in this context, my experience has mostly mixed. My early direct experience was as a result of a religious "semi-cult". When I lived in Sydney (which predates my involvement in BDSM), I was horrified at the amount of women I spoke to there who had been the victim of a sexual or physical attack.

The most sure recipe for abuse I have seen is to form high-pressure cliques dominated by some sort of cult of personality. The power trip that happens tends to isolate the people from morality, and anything becomes permissable. Which infallably tends to lead to abuse of some sort.

So how much of all of that is linked to BDSM? I would say very little. To me, BDSM is a constructive way to educate and deal with the power dynamics that are part and parcel of the human race. We see the issue of wanting to hold power or wanting to serve, and yet we deal with it honestly rather than hiding it behind the facade of religion, politics, war or the like.

So when I am asked whether BDSM is a hideout for potential abusers, I have to say that it's quite the reverse. It's a recognition that any human being can be an abuser, and it's an attempt to educate and deal with that proactively. To enjoy the thrill of the power dynamics without having it devolve into abuse. No, it's not perfect. But I have seen less abuse directly associated with BDSM as I have in other parts of society.

The BDSM community as a whole actively educates our practitioners to encourage safety and discourage abuse. It's very hard to get involved in BDSM and not learn what consensuality, safety words, safety calls, boundaries and limits are. And yet married couples aren't guaranteed to receive the same kind of education before they cohabitate... but domestic violence must be one of the most prevalent vectors of abuse.

Anyway, enough seriousness from me. Back to silliness.
 
PM Message from the gentleman that intiated this thread.

My sincere appreciation to you kind soul - Yesterday, 10:47 AM
the response to your post has been insightful and surprisingly extensive. : )

Tend to agree, it's been a brilliant discussion .

Thanks to everyone whom participated to date :rose:
 
Further PM Message from the gentleman that intiated this thread

this time with afterburner...i thank you.
the response has been incredibly comforting to me.
these people are extraordinarily informed, exceptionally written, and above all
maintain both self respect and respect for others across the board.

I couldn't resist sharing this 2nd message.

It's quoted in entirety :rose:
 
What is Abuse/Domestic Violence?

Information about Domestic Violence.

"Abuse NEVER happens with a victim's/survivor's consent."

The FACT that at least 95% of all cases reported to police or domestic violence hot lines involve heterosexual men battering heterosexual women, thus the use of the male pronoun "he" for the batterer and the female pronoun "she" for the victim/survivor.

This does not mean that women cannot batter men or other women, or that men cannot batter their male intimate partners. *In fact they do and it is long thought, yet not clearly known yet, that they do so in comparable instances to that of hetrosexual cases.

What is Domestic Violence?

Domestic violence/abusive behaviour is the behaviour used by one person in a relationship to dominate and control another or others.

The abusive behaviour generally has a pattern to it, and is repeated.
The result is that the person or persons subjected to this violence live in fear and intimidation.
In some cases, the abuse may continue even after the relationship has been officially terminated.

The overwhelming majority of people subjected to domestic violence are women.

The following behaviours are some examples of domestic violence.
All of which are illegal:
-Physical abuse such as hitting, slapping, punching, biting, kicking or pushing;
-Damaging property such as the house, breaking furniture, hurting pets to intimidate and frighten;
-Threats to harm your children, pets, family members or you;
-Intimidation and harassment including humiliation, constant criticism, insults;
-Stalking Behaviours - persistent phone calls, following the victim or staying outside of the victim's the home or workplace.
-Forcing victim to have sex, or take part in sexual acts against their will;
-Withholding necessities of life such as food, money, medical care;
-Isolation, preventing the victim from the company of family and friends.

Physical and sexual abuse may not begin until a year or so into the relationship.
However, controlling and dominating behaviour may be present at the start of the relationship but can be construed as jealousy, and is often regarded as a compliment to the woman or a sign of his strong love for her.

For many women, this type of behaviour first appears DURING PREGNANCY, thus resulting in both Mother and Child at being risk.


The Power and Control Wheel: Attached Diagram

The power and control wheel below provides examples of abusive tactics that may be used by the abuser to assert power and control over their partner. Not all of these tactics may be used by the abuser but most abused women can identify with some of, if not all, of them.


Cycle of Violence Domestic: Attached Diagram

The diagram below illustrates the standard cycle of violence dynamic.
Violence is a pattern of behaviour that is repeated and in many abusive relationships that pattern of behaviour is cyclical in nature. This has been termed the ‘Cycle of Violence’.
This cycle varies but generally rotates between relative calm and an ‘explosion’ of abuse.

When an abusive incident happens it is often in the middle of a cycle of violence.
This cycle may begin weeks before with a build up of tension.
After the explosion there is a period of remorse when the man/abuser fears losing his family.
During this time he may revert to being a loving partner in an attempt to ‘buy back’ the woman’s trust and commitment. (Also known as the 'honeymoon phase')
The woman, wishing the violence to end but not the relationship, wants to believe his promises that it will never happen again.
She may indeed feel loved and needed at this time and so, understandably, may accept his promises and remain in the relationship.
Sometimes, if these tactics do not work, he may revert to intimidation and threats in order to coerce her into staying, fear is a powerful tactic.

The cycle continues gaining momentum as his power over her increases and her ability to escape decreases. Over time, some phases of the cycle, such as the ‘honeymoon’ phase may be ommitted completely, and the frequency and intensity of the violence is known to escalate.
This is a sign of great danger for the woman, and the recognition of this cycle can is almost always a revealing experience her. If you are a victim of abuse, you are never to blame and you are not alone.

It can be VERY difficult for those who are, or who have experienced violence to come forward because they may feel isolated, ashamed, confused or just too afraid to speak about their experiences.
Sometimes they blame themselves for the violence because they have been told by their partner on many occasions, that they ‘provoked’ it.

The Abuser is ALWAYS responsible for their own behaviour, and thus must be held personally accountable as a member of his local community.

By an Abuser's very choice to abuse, he has chosen not to hold himself accountable for his behaviour, and thus must be held accountible by all those around him from members of his peer group, to his local law enforcement agency, and finally his local community's judcial system.

Domestic violence often takes place ‘behind closed doors’ and in the past it was seen very much as a ‘private family matter’ that society should not get involved with.
However it is of dire importants to remember that: No one deserves to be abused, and including the abuser and that if you are a bystander that is aware of an abusive situtation you are morally and often legally obligated to report this awarness to your local law enforcement agency as soon as possible.
It maybe very likely that by doing so you are literally saving the life of a victim of Domestic Violence.

Abuse happens to people from ALL walks of life.
It is occuring in all cultures, all age groups and within every economic bracket.

Everyone has the right to feel safe. Real Love is inherently imbibbed with mutual feelings of safety by all partners choosing to participate in a relationship of intimacy.






- This particular post is provided by the individual who's question to Rebbecca initiated her wonderful idea of seeding this thread thus feeling it worthy of this community's interest.

My sincere gratitude to her and to all of those who have expressed genuine interest and have shared such thoughtful, objective and truly informative (for me anyway) feedback.

please note: I have made minor personal edits to this information based on my own training and associated terminologies. However this has in no way altered the core content of the information I have presented here for your review.

Graphics, and Core Information Sources for this post:
-http://www.dvcairns.org/
-http://www.whbw.org/index.html
 

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An interesting article, and one which tries to focus on the crux of abuse.

I'd be interested to see some of the results of the research that back up those statements. For example, I would believe that the incidence of domestic behaivour might vary depending on cultural and socio-economic factors.

Also, the statement about behaivours "all of which are illegal", where are they illegal? And under what laws? For example, "Intimidation and harassment including humiliation, constant criticism, insults" is illegal in the workplace in New Zealand.

I appreciate that the generalisms are there to keep the content succint and to the point (something I always fail to do :D). However, for someone like me I'm not going to do more than think "you may have a point" unless I can see the stuff backing up your claims.

What doesn't surprise me is that the statistics (whatever the source) you state show domestic violence as by-far the highest incidence of abuse, and that the majority of that is men abusing women. I think here in New Zealand, child abuse (men abusing children) would also be high.

We could have fun arguing the issue of responsibility ("The Abuser is ALWAYS responsible for their own behaviour") but I'd be playing devil's advocate there since I agree with that.

Some idea of your intended audience for the article might be good too. :D For example, you into a brief aside about pregnant women, but you don't really do the same for other types of abuse and violence.

Also, you seem to have limited the content to covering individual violence. What about crime-oriented violence/abuse, social group violence/abuse (gangs, for example), cultural violence/abuse (as an example, the pattern of beating women who appear in public "improperly dressed" in many muslim countries) and even war between societies or countries.

So to summarise, I'd challenge at least the source of the statistics, I'd want to see more coverage of other forms of abuse (and I believe that there is an interrelationship between the different forms) and I'd want to see some idea of who the audience is so that I understood the focus and exclusions of content.

I do think the article covers much of the issue of domestic violence fairly well and reasonably succinctly. And for BDSM purposes, the telling comment is this:

"Abuse NEVER happens with a victim's/survivor's consent."

Thanks for posting!
 
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