Re: I, the Shadow

[twelveoone]

Perhaps. I don't claim to be a poet. My verse is doggerel.

oops beat me, before my edit.
I don't claim to be a poet either, I'm a comedian.
As in:
What are you joking?
Why yes, officer, you really don't think I take all those amendments seriously.

 

[HarryHill]

Holy crap. Most of the poem is brown. Juliet (two lines in yellow) is clearly the other.
One line in blue
Thou art the sun. I, the shadow.
looks to be the protagonist.

But it also presents a problem for me the writer, being someone's shadow is a cliched troupe. How do I take it into the unfamiliar?
I don't draw a clear distinction as to whether it is the protagonist continuing a metaphor, or dealing with an antagonist, because they are the same, as soon as the protagonist says "I, the shadow." he becomes two. If it is too clear- it is a cartoon. I feel it has to be sustained as turmoil.
The muddy brown section.

The black section:.
What light magnifies the shadows, of substance such as I, the transition is complete and the shadow goes on to name things that have no substance, shadows.

OK, the muddy comment has a great degree of validity, I have somewhat of an excuse or justification. for now we will leave it at that.
But somehow, some people got through it, more trickery. But I want you to look at the shape of the poem, the oddities. I am setting up something else.
later

I think I'm missing something or perhaps you mean a smelly bath shoe... dear mod this is not an attempt to sell shoes by the see whore

 

[Tsotha]

Here is the comment:

by LeopoldNicholas12/09/13

muddy

Rather short and non specific.
A comment of use or something that looks like a tit for tat?

A very concise "I probably don't get it". Useful.

Writer>poem<reader relationship
A three way fault? A two way fault? My input flawed vs his reading, Perhaps, it is the poem itself.

If you have explain the poem you lose the audience - well, I already lost this one.

It's hard to judge who is at fault. Some people won't put in the effort to read it, others (like me) won't get the references. As you said: you're selecting your audience. But yeah, some people will leave frustrated. You're at fault to the degree that you care about not reaching those people.

Holy crap. Most of the poem is brown. Juliet (two lines in yellow) is clearly the other.

Originally, I thought that was some sort of typo, or copy pasting mistake. But then I started thinking that you might be instantiating two Juliets.

One line in blue
Thou art the sun. I, the shadow.
looks to be the protagonist.

The hint. To give the reader a chance.

But it also presents a problem for me the writer, being someone's shadow is a cliched troupe. How do I take it into the unfamiliar?
I don't draw a clear distinction as to whether it is the protagonist continuing a metaphor, or dealing with an antagonist, because they are the same, as soon as the protagonist says "I, the shadow." he becomes two. If it is too clear- it is a cartoon. I feel it has to be sustained as turmoil.
The muddy brown section.

It's confusion... Throughout there is the idea of something "real" casting the shadow, and the shadow is just appearances — knives to fend off dying light and metastasis into greater dark, with many shadows from many small lights.

The black section:.
What light magnifies the shadows, of substance such as I, the transition is complete and the shadow goes on to name things that have no substance, shadows.

If one pretends to be, long enough, ones becomes. You say the shadow is a "sarcastic bastard"; I see something else.

OK, the muddy comment has a great degree of validity, I have somewhat of an excuse or justification. for now we will leave it at that.
But somehow, some people got through it, more trickery. But I want you to look at the shape of the poem, the oddities. I am setting up something else.
later

The blue line is clear like my "we are like a bonsai tree". The hint, or the thread you pull to start unraveling.

The brown is a framework, it has characters and relationships. And yeah, it's "muddy". It has to be. It describes the "moth to the light" relation between the shadow and many lights.

The black section is different, one knows it is a different section. It's the "fade to black".

The yellow lines, though... Still parsing that.

 

[butters]

reading you two interact is enlightening. gives me better insight into the complexities of the actual composition whereas, when i first read it, i was overwhelmed with sensations and imagery and so didn't have the distance of perspective your posts allow me. thankyou, both.

 

[twelveoone]

I think I'm missing something or perhaps you mean a smelly bath shoe... dear mod this is not an attempt to sell shoes by the see whore

er. spelling. or spell checker.
Trope

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

anyway a cool link

 

[Tsotha]

er. spelling. or spell checker.
Trope

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage

anyway a cool link

Whatever you do, DO NOT click 12's link. It's about 10 times a better time sink than butters' 2048 game. You've been warned.

 

[twelveoone]

Originally, I thought that was some sort of typo, or copy pasting mistake. But then I started thinking that you might be instantiating two Juliets.

It's confusion... Throughout there is the idea of something "real" casting the shadow, and the shadow is just appearances — knives to fend off dying light and metastasis into greater dark, with many shadows from many small lights.

If one pretends to be, long enough, ones becomes. You say the shadow is a "sarcastic bastard"; I see something else.

The blue line is clear like my "we are like a bonsai tree". The hint, or the thread you pull to start unraveling.

The brown is a framework, it has characters and relationships. And yeah, it's "muddy". It has to be. It describes the "moth to the light" relation between the shadow and many lights.

The black section is different, one knows it is a different section. It's the "fade to black".

The yellow lines, though... Still parsing that.

blue-yes, partially; brown - yes, mostly; black - dead-on; yellow - hope you see it now. You are one tough hombre.

Here is the text of the poem marked differently

...and Juliet
...and Juliet


Thou art the sun. I, the shadow.
From brightness unto night your aspect
magnifies my shape, my size.
My, how the twilights long.



Drawn. By moon and streetlights I
writhe, fade, blend and reappear, as a beginning
multiplies to too many ends.

By the fall the outline, unbecoming,
had become sharper as if
it were growing knives,
whether to cut itself off
of or the cut itself back in
to my vague space to metastisize.

What mirror mirrors me, drawn by sorrow
tomorrow horrifies, laughs with dull knell
of leaden bell; what light, what light - is there?

An evil robe - floats - on the rising floor,
loomed with moonlit motes from a shade half-drawn,
- waits till this hated time abates in ice.

What light, what light multiplies cancered thoughts
that laugh at how it was, what I've now become;
laugh at the thought of the hand on the door

with roses. Obliterate that sad overlay
of time and memory, ablate the loss.
Go then, unfleshed robe of dark, unblesst kin,

down the lightless hall past the half drawn shade
to the window pane streaked with moonlit frost.
Go to the light that multiplies and laugh.

For what light is there...

What light magnifies
the shadows, of substance
such as I,

of the creep of the cat,
of the ruslted cloth,
in dance as things cancered grown,
of the flutter of the bat,
of the startled moth,
and of things never to be known,
that glimpst, uncaught
in cornered eyes of people
that pray for noon,
as do I.

Thou wert the sun in blue skies.
My, how life lies.

Here's Willie Again
But, soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
I want you to see the ellipses, it is a backwards echo
For what light is there......and Juliet ...and Juliet
Thou art the sun.

This is a tricky move on my part, ellipses generally should be avoided, because most of the public will accept it only if it is a deliberate trail off, and poets think of it as you can't find the words? However the words are already there as a referent, this passage should be quite familiar, so I don't need to fill it in, if familiar
that double Juliet and reverse order should unsettle.
Wills next line perverted.
Arise, dark shadow, and kill the envious poet.
Which is where I'm going.

This is important

There is a double encasement (or framing device):
In blue: these two passages are transition passages, both referring to what preceded and foreshading what follows. Setting off, the struggle for control between the shadow and the pre-protagonist.

In green: the premise and finality.

A framing device, avoids the linear line, adds a different way of looking at the story, and adds an illusion of depth to what is really just flat text.
Where ever possible - use them.

In context this line is overloaded:
Thou wert the sun in blue skies.
Referring to the relationship between Juliet and the hollow poet romeo, the shadow's last identification with people praying for noon (the shadow is smallest) and the title of another poem. (Where something else takes over.)
I playing a slight of hand game by keeping alive the possibility of the cliche shadow until the end, to avoid it becoming a cartoon too soon.

Thou wert the sun in blue skies.
My, how life lies.

Could be viewed as a rather sarcastic shadow killing his owner and taking off on his own. This shadow creates a somewhat different metaphor then the one presented previously.

Some ways of linking parts of text, tieing it together

In a future post, the bizarre utilization of poetry and prose here, just for Emp, and how I turn that around.


That were my thoughts writing it. For now, I stand by it.
As for the comments, I am greatly honoured, and as a side bonus there is an interesting exchange between Tazz and myself.

 

[Tsotha]

I've been given insight, and what it does is allow for my imagination to go further — perhaps, further away. Filtering things is a bigger problem than seeing things. At least, that's often the case, for me.

"I am the shadow". The hollow poet is the true shadow, though — at least in the shadow's eyes. The hollow poet is the closest the shadow came to identifying itself with the people who pray for noon. It's an inverse shadow. When the sun is high, the shadow can almost believe it belongs to light. But as it fades to black, the shadow rises. This is how you avoid the cliché, as far as I can tell — by inverting it.

...and, it's a tale of dying hope, of leaving it behind. The people who pray for noon are deluded, for whatever light there is, it only magnifies the dark things, which are never to be known by those that keep burning their eyes.

A framing device, avoids the linear line, adds a different way of looking at the story, and adds an illusion of depth to what is really just flat text.
Where ever possible - use them.

About the double encasement, if I understand correctly, the green lines mark what was and what has become (initial state & final state), and the blue is a setup for the reader. You call those "framing devices". Should I understand, then, that this "frame" gives the reader an "entry point", a scope for what the poem is dealing with?

(I can see how a framework without a framing device can lead a reader to be absolutely lost.)

And what do you mean, "avoid the linear line"? The inverse problem, of having too little to work with?

 

[butters]

"I am the shadow". The hollow poet is the true shadow, though — at least in the shadow's eyes. The hollow poet is the closest the shadow came to identifying itself with the people who pray for noon. It's an inverse shadow. When the sun is high, the shadow can almost believe it belongs to light. But as it fades to black, the shadow rises. This is how you avoid the cliché, as far as I can tell — by inverting it.

wonderfully lucid way to explain things. lucid, and capturing the terrible poignancy of 12's piece. *sigh*

 

[Tsotha]

wonderfully lucid way to explain things. lucid, and capturing the terrible poignancy of 12's piece. *sigh*

It's not necessarily the correct explanation, though. The poem is open ended. You push something in, on one side, and something else comes out the other side. The problem, then, is filtering what you're aware of. There is always projection, always a bias. Even when you *know* the answer, you might still be tempted to disbelieve it.

 

[twelveoone]

It's not necessarily the correct explanation, though. The poem is open ended. You push something in, on one side, and something else comes out the other side. The problem, then, is filtering what you're aware of. There is always projection, always a bias. Even when you *know* the answer, you might still be tempted to disbelieve it.

Let me back up a bit, what you see is what it is, what I said is a part of the conscious programming, I generally program multiple paths. If the poem works, it is a success for both the reader and the writer, I as a writer just try to make it of interest.

I generally program multiple paths.
the problem with this is it often generates muddiness

All poems are to a degree open ended, subject to how much effort you require to reader to push. i.e. it was reasonable to expect the Shakespeare reference, it was a mistake to expect anyone to catch Poe's.

 

[twelveoone]

This thread inspired me to write:

Meditations on three score years and ten

I am but the shadow of my former self:
What I was, I am no more.

That I could in youth, fitness and health
Is gone, lost for evermore.

Yet this aged, ragged shadow can still recall,
Remember, re-live, and dream -

Tales of when this shadow was an actor tall;
Days of yore did endless seem.

Now this shadow sits and watches others act
Yet their deeds cannot pass -

Those that shadow has improved on fact.
Was I that good? No alas.

Your claim that this is doggeral is not accepted, btw, if presented in new poems, it would be a delight, (unless I saw 5 in a row) I would still have pointed out the cliche, but these are unfamiliar (to me) line lengths, 10-7 *1 has 11, most of it flows nicely except:
That I could in youth
What I could in youth? typo?
That I could do...
Rhyme unobtrusive, no poetisms, all pluses, and I seem to hear an echo actor, act
It does tend to go exactly where it is expected, but doesn't quite generate the reader got there before the writer response that I slap on some.
FWIW

 

[twelveoone]

About the double encasement, if I understand correctly, the green lines mark what was and what has become (initial state & final state), and the blue is a setup for the reader. You call those "framing devices". Should I understand, then, that this "frame" gives the reader an "entry point", a scope for what the poem is dealing with?

(I can see how a framework without a framing device can lead a reader to be absolutely lost.)

And what do you mean, "avoid the linear line"? The inverse problem, of having too little to work with?

we are not quite in agreement. it is more a setting off of enclosed material, there is a thread called the focal point, a poem by Bronzeage is in there (I think) it is called Blackberry Sunday if I am right, I highlighted it, it is a standard writer trick. It avoids the straight drive though, as it is NOT part of the main text, it also (I believe) adds dimension, read the poem without the frame, then read it with, big difference. Emp will jump out and tell you it is a prose trick, he is right, but it also a poetry trick, er, technique.

 

[oggbashan]

Your claim that this is doggeral is not accepted, btw, if presented in new poems, it would be a delight, (unless I saw 5 in a row) I would still have pointed out the cliche, but these are unfamiliar (to me) line lengths, 10-7 *1 has 11, most of it flows nicely except:
That I could in youth
What I could in youth? typo?
That I could do...
Rhyme unobtrusive, no poetisms, all pluses, and I seem to hear an echo actor, act
It does tend to go exactly where it is expected, but doesn't quite generate the reader got there before the writer response that I slap on some.
FWIW

Thank you for this.

"That I could do in youth" was in the first draft, but jars when read aloud, which my poems should be. The "do" is a harsh break in the rhythm. I left it as inferred with the stress on "could".

 

[twelveoone]

Thank you for this.

"That I could do in youth" was in the first draft, but jars when read aloud, which my poems should be. The "do" is a harsh break in the rhythm. I left it as inferred with the stress on "could".

That I could in youth, fitness and health (anapest at the end?)
Is gone, lost for evermore.

That (or what) I could do once, fit and in health. (anapest at the end)
Now gone, lost for evermore.

This is slightly more emphatic (you probably don't want), depends on the stress, my apology here, my view on stress is it is often assigned and not fixed. I don't know how you are marking the line.
?? couldin youth, fitness and health
Is gone, lost for evermore. ?

 

[twelveoone]

It's hard to judge who is at fault. Some people won't put in the effort to read it, others (like me) won't get the references. As you said: you're selecting your audience. But yeah, some people will leave frustrated. You're at fault to the degree that you care about not reaching those people.

no, I'm being reasonable
1.) it is a difficult poem, I threw out a lot of non standard techniques
2.) it is unpleasant
most people will get lost,

THIS IS THE BEST PART OF LITEROTICA
you'll notice I linked to the comments, some of these are best writers here (we'll make an exception for Tazz).
Desejo, Angeline, butters, live4passion, champagne1982, HarryHill, Maria2394, LeopoldNicholas, greenmountaineer.
I can't see all the faves...
The length and the depth kind of embarrasses me, and the response far exceeded my expectations, for despite the non standard approach they were able to get though it. Open minded. This is criticism, that I'm not sure I would have gotten elsewhere.
Thank you
as for you, tso, later I'll show you a different way of reading and writing to it.

 

[Tsotha]

no, I'm being reasonable
1.) it is a difficult poem, I threw out a lot of non standard techniques
2.) it is unpleasant
most people will get lost,

Hey, that's what I said. More or less.

There is nothing wrong with selecting the audience, it is just another thing to be aware of. Example given: there is nothing wrong about writing a poem making a reference to the color of a specific flower in Mongolia, just don't expect too many people to get it without effort.

Success should be measured by whether the intended public is being reached, I think.

as for you, tso, later I'll show you a different way of reading and writing to it.

Looking forward to it.

 

[todski28]

I am still struggling with this piece but you will have my comments as soon as they are available and for what they are worth, I have read this at least a dozen times.

 

[twelveoone]

I am still struggling with this piece but you will have my comments as soon as they are available and for what they are worth, I have read this at least a dozen times.

get the fuck out while there is still time, if you hit 20, you start seeing god or sumptin' not just here, any goddamn poem. or you throw up and start making parodies.

 

[todski28]

get the fuck out while there is still time, if you hit 20, you start seeing god or sumptin' not just here, any goddamn poem. or you throw up and start making parodies.

It has be spaced over a few months so as to give breathing space, every time I think I have something it is like I grabbed a shadow, open my hand and it's gone

 

[HarryHill]

It has be spaced over a few months so as to give breathing space, every time I think I have something it is like I grabbed a shadow, open my hand and it's gone

Now that's a hellova comment

 

[twelveoone]

It has be spaced over a few months so as to give breathing space, every time I think I have something it is like I grabbed a shadow, open my hand and it's gone

that's the way I feel about money, but apply what you just said to the poem
one reading:
Juliet gone
Shadow goes off on its own - its a horror story
Another reading:
a little more complex, a psychodrama - everything gone

but wait, so far I colour coded this twice - let me show the reading trick

 

[twelveoone]

A different way of reading

1.) Look at the shape of the text.
2.)Read the first two lines, and proceeding clockwise read the end of the lines, read the last two lines.
In most cases, what is there is important, that generally is where poets will put the most effort. Be aware of false starts and ends.
3.) Proceed upward reading the front of the lines.
In Free Verse, often patterns start in the front of the line. The reason you start at the bottom here is because that is where the pattern breaks, how it is resolved. Another important area.

4.) At the top again, proceed downward, look for stanza patterns, anything unusual, anything that looks like a loose thread.
5.) What was the title?
6. ) Go read the poem as normal.

 

[twelveoone]

Well this is going to be fun...
1. ) irregular, fatter in the middle
2.) first two lines tell me nothing - a false start, the end lines do not rhyme, except towards the bottom.
the last two lines:
Thou wert the sun in blue skies.
My, how life lies.
3.) A pattern appears at the bottom with line starts of prepositions, and at the top with ellipses.

What were you saying Tod? Shall we skip 4 for now and just cut to 5?

Now sometimes I comment that if I get to end before the writer does, it doesn't mean I cheated with this, it means that there is nothing in the middle that surprises me, it is straightline and often cliched.

 

[twelveoone]

edit 1 to 1,000

as said this is a companion piece to "blue skies"
for laughs the original poem was something like this:

You are the sun, I am the shadow
You were the sun in blue skies
My, how life lies.

a brain fart that hangs on a cliche.