Red Flags

[h_i_s]

I love this. I'm so sick of the group-driven infantilizing of submissives. Until you are officially surrendering your responsibility and unless you are - take some effing responsibility for your choices, safety, sanity, and happiness. A red flag is any large and obvious marker that the person you are talking to is not going to deliver on some of your core needs and interests to be happy with them. For some people NOT holding open your door tells you what you need to know and for other people someone who DOES open the door for you creates the sign of a possible dealbreaker. Just pay some attention and stick to your personal safety measures. And if you can't avoid someone who creeps you out then you have no business dating regardless.

I just get so damn tired at times of it being incorrectly assumed that as a pyl, I am to be associated with the 'infantiles'. Stereo types really anger me especially since most are so far fetched, inaccurate, etc.

Thanks for this post Netzach. It's a help to know that I am not the only person who sees and recognizes that the group exists and doesn't represent 'all'. I have a hard time accepting that it represents 'many' even, in the genuine sense.

 

[Caitlynne]

Pushes you into doing things you aren't yet ready for.

[Exploring and pushing boundaries is often a regular component of established D/s relationships. While still in early stages of relationships, building trust and exploring what you already know you like with each other should certainly happen first.

This isn't always a red flag, but it is a sign of a possible mis-match between D/s partners.

Dominants always know what they want. That's the deal with them. They know exactly what they want and THEY ASK FOR IT. That's not a red flag at all. They command, subs submit.

Sometimes what they want, isn't what the sub wants at that particular moment. And that is fine, as consent is a part of our world, but all it really is is an indication that you won't submit to that particular thing at a particular moment.

Now there could be lots of reasons for that--all legitimate. It could be that the level of trust isn't there yet. It could be that it's a limit you didn't know about. It could be a trigger of some kind. It could be you just don't want to submit to "that". It isn't always a red flag of danger. It is however, always a signal that there is something *in the submissive* that won't/can't submit.

Whatever that *is*, it's what needs to be explored. A simple I'm not ready for that isn't going to cut it with most of the Dominants I know. In fact most don't have the time or the inclination to baby sit a sub who can't explain "why" she won't submit to something.

And it *could* also be a red flag of danger, but taken alone it could also be that the sub just doen't fancy what's being asked for. D/s is a two way road. Doms push for what they want, and subs sometimes push back when they don't want to do it.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[x_ShimmeR_x]

I, personally, take it as a red flag when someone announces from the very beginning, "I want a live-in slave, 24/7, and I would want you to move in as soon as possible so that you can start serving me."

This kind of thinking is beyond me. What some people don't seem to understand is that a D/s relationship has to evolve and grow just like a vanilla relationship. Levels of submission should develop in layers. Its one thing for a person to mention that eventually that's what they would be looking for, but complete submission RIGHT AWAY is just insanity. In my opinion, anyway.

 

[Caitlynne]

I, personally, take it as a red flag when someone announces from the very beginning, "I want a live-in slave, 24/7, and I would want you to move in as soon as possible so that you can start serving me."

This kind of thinking is beyond me. What some people don't seem to understand is that a D/s relationship has to evolve and grow just like a vanilla relationship. Levels of submission should develop in layers. Its one thing for a person to mention that eventually that's what they would be looking for, but complete submission RIGHT AWAY is just insanity. In my opinion, anyway.

Why is it a red flag though? I mean this sincerely, why is it a red flag? What is so outrageous about a Dominant stating what s/he wants and that s/he'd like it as soon as possible? That's what Doms do. And often as soon as possible, means as soon as a sub can submit to it. That's not necessarily a specific amount of time.

Now some do this better than others. Some are clumsy about it. Or inexperienced. Or just unrealistic. There are all kinds of reasons a Dom might not read the sub accurately.

But a lot of Doms take control right away, and I mean from the first moment. No warm up. No long talks. No foreplay. They take control and state what they want immediately. If it is too fast or too much too soon, then its a subs job to either walk away or try and explain why it needs to be slowed down.

I'm not trying to be dense here, but I just don't see what is so wrong with a Dominant stating what s/he wants--even if it is on the first meeting. Some Dominants like to cut through all the crap and not waste their time if it's a bad mismatch. Straight talk does that.

Not all are like this, but I definitely don't see this kind of thing as an automatic red flag. Again I see it as a mismatch. When this happens, it's something a sub doesn't want to submit to. Maybe it is a "yet", but its definitely something the sub is unwilling to submit to. That's not something wrong with the Dominant, it's an internal thing with that submissive.

And no sub is wrong for not wanting to go that fast or that far. It's a question of compatibility.

And sure sometimes it is a red flag, but I'd hate to have people walk away from this thread with the idea that *every* Dom who does this is insane, because I just don't see that as true. Most of the Doms I have ever known took some kind of control right away. They stated what they were about and what they wanted right away. I didn't see that as a red flag, I saw it as 'cutting to the chase'. When my desires and needs somewhat jived with his, I explored the possibilities. When they didn't, I walked away. But I never thought they were insane or unreasonable--they were just being Dominants.

Submissives have to know what works for them and make wise decisions about who to submit to. A Dominant is always going to push for submission. It's in his/her DNA. Subs have to watch their boundaries "before" they submit. In the beginning it can be a tug-o-war for power, but that is the nature of D/s in the 'courting stages'.

I guess I just don't find this as alien as some do.

 

[nh23]

I would just say go with your gut. What's a red flag to me, may not be to someone else. It just depends on your needs and expectations in a relationship. Bring up issues as soon as they come up, and discuss them. If you get a bad feeling get out. I know this isn't always going to work. It's a good way to start though I think.

 

[h_i_s]

I, personally, take it as a red flag when someone announces from the very beginning, "I want a live-in slave, 24/7, and I would want you to move in as soon as possible so that you can start serving me."

This kind of thinking is beyond me. What some people don't seem to understand is that a D/s relationship has to evolve and grow just like a vanilla relationship. Levels of submission should develop in layers. Its one thing for a person to mention that eventually that's what they would be looking for, but complete submission RIGHT AWAY is just insanity. In my opinion, anyway.

It's certainly reasonable and ok to apply that opinion to themselves and and thier own relationships. And it may be true to say that for themselves a relationship must evolve in that manner. I've no idea why any should assume this to be true for all though.

It didn't happen that way for me and IYM and we have a wonderful relationship in which complete submission was there from day one. This doesn't mean we did everything all in one day of course. I was told from day one that my obedience was expected and it's what I agreed to because it's what I wanted. We love each other to pieces, are married and I still manage to serve in the absolute sense and have never been happier. We are also parents of 5. We are involved in our community. We are hard workers who also volunteer. If we are insane, we've not had time to notice.

Some need to take baby steps. Others are perfectly fine in taking giant steps and fair well for doing so.

 

[Netzach]

Why is it a red flag though? I mean this sincerely, why is it a red flag? What is so outrageous about a Dominant stating what s/he wants and that s/he'd like it as soon as possible? That's what Doms do. And often as soon as possible, means as soon as a sub can submit to it. That's not necessarily a specific amount of time.

Now some do this better than others. Some are clumsy about it. Or inexperienced. Or just unrealistic. There are all kinds of reasons a Dom might not read the sub accurately.

But a lot of Doms take control right away, and I mean from the first moment. No warm up. No long talks. No foreplay. They take control and state what they want immediately. If it is too fast or too much too soon, then its a subs job to either walk away or try and explain why it needs to be slowed down.

I'm not trying to be dense here, but I just don't see what is so wrong with a Dominant stating what s/he wants--even if it is on the first meeting. Some Dominants like to cut through all the crap and not waste their time if it's a bad mismatch. Straight talk does that.

Not all are like this, but I definitely don't see this kind of thing as an automatic red flag. Again I see it as a mismatch. When this happens, it's something a sub doesn't want to submit to. Maybe it is a "yet", but its definitely something the sub is unwilling to submit to. That's not something wrong with the Dominant, it's an internal thing with that submissive.

And no sub is wrong for not wanting to go that fast or that far. It's a question of compatibility.

And sure sometimes it is a red flag, but I'd hate to have people walk away from this thread with the idea that *every* Dom who does this is insane, because I just don't see that as true. Most of the Doms I have ever known took some kind of control right away. They stated what they were about and what they wanted right away. I didn't see that as a red flag, I saw it as 'cutting to the chase'. When my desires and needs somewhat jived with his, I explored the possibilities. When they didn't, I walked away. But I never thought they were insane or unreasonable--they were just being Dominants.

Submissives have to know what works for them and make wise decisions about who to submit to. A Dominant is always going to push for submission. It's in his/her DNA. Subs have to watch their boundaries "before" they submit. In the beginning it can be a tug-o-war for power, but that is the nature of D/s in the 'courting stages'.

I guess I just don't find this as alien as some do.

I was like this in any professional situation in which the person claimed to be "a slave" in his upfront communications. I would inform them that if that was the case, he could show up at X time and not to be late and I would do whatever I wanted with him short of maiming him or fucking him up in some way. If he didn't like how it was going, he could leave, have a nice day.

The people who had the opportunity to just do whatever I told them knowing that it was ALL dealers' choice were elated to find someone who could do that for them, give them an opportunity to just do stuff, minimally negotiated and non-negotiable. Now, admittedly, they could walk and were not committing to a lfe with me, just an afternoon or an evenings' service. But really, not talking things to death and expecting a slave to be a slave doesn't mean I'm a psychopath.

 

[h_i_s]

Actually, I don't believe I've bothered to use a single "red flag checklist" sort of thing with John [Master Darling™]... I still haven't bothered asking for his driver's license (he hasn't asked for mine, either). I went the whole nine yards checking out Dominican Disaster Boy this summer and it didn't save me from getting burned, so I decided to worry more about what my intuition/common sense/heart/mind told me about John, than demand proof of his security clearance status, passport photo, references list, etc. lol

(That doesn't mean I ignored the questions that occasionally popped up, but instead of going "RED FLAG! RED FLAG!" I discussed those concerns with him like an adult. For all I know things could still fall apart and bite me in the ass, but I don't think they will...)

I hear you. Yep.
Been there before.. done more than my fair share of all that too. Yep.

 

[x_ShimmeR_x]

Why is it a red flag though? I mean this sincerely, why is it a red flag? What is so outrageous about a Dominant stating what s/he wants and that s/he'd like it as soon as possible? That's what Doms do. And often as soon as possible, means as soon as a sub can submit to it. That's not necessarily a specific amount of time.

Now some do this better than others. Some are clumsy about it. Or inexperienced. Or just unrealistic. There are all kinds of reasons a Dom might not read the sub accurately.

But a lot of Doms take control right away, and I mean from the first moment. No warm up. No long talks. No foreplay. They take control and state what they want immediately. If it is too fast or too much too soon, then its a subs job to either walk away or try and explain why it needs to be slowed down.

I'm not trying to be dense here, but I just don't see what is so wrong with a Dominant stating what s/he wants--even if it is on the first meeting. Some Dominants like to cut through all the crap and not waste their time if it's a bad mismatch. Straight talk does that.

Not all are like this, but I definitely don't see this kind of thing as an automatic red flag. Again I see it as a mismatch. When this happens, it's something a sub doesn't want to submit to. Maybe it is a "yet", but its definitely something the sub is unwilling to submit to. That's not something wrong with the Dominant, it's an internal thing with that submissive.

And no sub is wrong for not wanting to go that fast or that far. It's a question of compatibility.

And sure sometimes it is a red flag, but I'd hate to have people walk away from this thread with the idea that *every* Dom who does this is insane, because I just don't see that as true. Most of the Doms I have ever known took some kind of control right away. They stated what they were about and what they wanted right away. I didn't see that as a red flag, I saw it as 'cutting to the chase'. When my desires and needs somewhat jived with his, I explored the possibilities. When they didn't, I walked away. But I never thought they were insane or unreasonable--they were just being Dominants.

Submissives have to know what works for them and make wise decisions about who to submit to. A Dominant is always going to push for submission. It's in his/her DNA. Subs have to watch their boundaries "before" they submit. In the beginning it can be a tug-o-war for power, but that is the nature of D/s in the 'courting stages'.

I guess I just don't find this as alien as some do.

You're absolutely correct. I only meant that this is a red flag for me -- not that it should be a red flag for anyone searching a D/s relationship. I was answering the question from a more personal standpoint and didn't intend for it to be something all subs should watch out for and avoid.

I personally have trust issues, therefore I am automatically wary of anyone who expects my full trust and submission from the very beginning. Don't get me wrong, I want someone who will make it clear from the jump that they are in control, but it would be -- like you said -- a 'mismatch' for me to pursue anything with someone who would like to see me move in next week.

I also agree 100% with what you said, that a Dom will automatically take control and its our job to set our own boundaries. In my opinion a 'red flag' isn't just a sign that you shouldn't get involved with this person because they might be 'crazy' or 'dangerous', but that getting involved with the person might result in getting wrapped up in something that is moving faster than you are comfortable with.

You bring up a lot of good points. Its very easy to act appalled and say, "I can't believe that he/she asked me to do this!" but you are right -- they're Doms. That's what they do.

 

[Caitlynne]

But really, not talking things to death and expecting a slave to be a slave doesn't mean I'm a psychopath.

Exactly.

 

[Caitlynne]

You're absolutely correct. I only meant that this is a red flag for me -- not that it should be a red flag for anyone searching a D/s relationship. I was answering the question from a more personal standpoint and didn't intend for it to be something all subs should watch out for and avoid.

I personally have trust issues, therefore I am automatically wary of anyone who expects my full trust and submission from the very beginning. Don't get me wrong, I want someone who will make it clear from the jump that they are in control, but it would be -- like you said -- a 'mismatch' for me to pursue anything with someone who would like to see me move in next week.

I also agree 100% with what you said, that a Dom will automatically take control and its our job to set our own boundaries. In my opinion a 'red flag' isn't just a sign that you shouldn't get involved with this person because they might be 'crazy' or 'dangerous', but that getting involved with the person might result in getting wrapped up in something that is moving faster than you are comfortable with.

You bring up a lot of good points. Its very easy to act appalled and say, "I can't believe that he/she asked me to do this!" but you are right -- they're Doms. That's what they do.

Good post. thanks for answering to me.

 

[h_i_s]

I totally relate to what Caitlynne has expressed and to Netzach's reply and comments to it.. no doubt.

So many people nowadays, when first interested in BDSM interests and stuff (and relationships evolving from) hit the internet and choke out every bit of info they can find on the subject. And some contribute valuable info to that huge pile of web content regarding BDSM .. some contribute some very inaccurate and less than genuine shit. I recall having to sort through that big pile of shit and make sense of it all. It was ridiculous at times. The one thing that has always annoyed me the most has been people who pass on half ass information based upon thier very limited experience and/or misinformation etc. Some should learn to say , "I don't know.", rather than 1. guess at answers or 2.make them up or 3.talk out of thier asses or all 3 of these combined.

And I like Netzach's choice wording, "Dealer's choice.". Great way to explain it in little words. I'm the subject of Dealer's choice. I suck at cards but if any want to refer to my Dealer as a Psychopath, see if I care because in my opinion and regarding my needs.. He fucking rocks.

 

[fishercat]

Well, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a completely inexperienced sub, but to me part of the search is a process of learning about myself and my needs and desires. As I'm contacted by potential Doms, I learn what interests they might have, and decide from my internal response after talking to them what I feel about new concepts. Maybe I add it to my profile as something I'm interested in or that might be a limit, maybe not. Still, it helps guide me to what I think I need, and makes my search that much easier.

So for me the concept of red flags is more about weeding out the liars. For example, I've corresponding with a very nice Dom who is interrupted almost every time we chat and disappears often with no goodbye. Sometimes he is not back for a day or two. He has many explanations, and they may all be true. But, he could also have lied and be hiding our chats from a wife. As long as I'm keeping my eyes open and using sensible safety precautions, I don't worry too much.

I try to keep an open mind about limits, and as part of this have learned to convey early on that while my profile doesn't have many limits, it is only because I have littie experience. I could try something new and love it, or find it's a limit. I expect Doms to be demanding from the start, and to know what they want, and if I'm not upfront it's a waste of both of our time. But communicating about D/s limits and interests is the same to me as discussing our vanilla interests. I really want to have some other things in common too, the kind of thing that the online sites don't really get to in their profiles.

I do like hearing about actual experiences other subs have had in their online searches, both good and bad. It gives me good ideas, such as the great safety tips that are mentioned many times. And the success stories - they keep me going. So to all of you who have shared, thank you.

P.S. First "real" post. Please be gentle.

 

[Stegral]

My red flags personally are due to my lack of ability to trust..
& that I am a switch...
I have been burned alot in the nilla world & it takes ALOT for me to trust.
ANYONE that demands (not requests) total & unquestioning submission...
I back away slowly to a safe distance, say bye & run.
IF it is requested, you may capture my interest & curiousity...
I will admit I am still a novice, but the group I am in has decades of experience as I need it.

My (now ex) fiance needed a slave, he revels in micro managing or TPE
I had wayyy too much "backbone & stubborness" for his liking.
While we were "seperated but working on it" he came across an already partially trained submissive that was bordering on slave tendancies.
He explored things with her without my knowledge (in case she didn't work out) & promptly dropped me when he learned I wasn't into sharing.
I was very hurt that he never really communicated his needs & desires to me, but rather blamed my "attitude" for destroying our relationship.
He moved out of province with her & they are still together...

my red flag was another person's green flag...

 

[Caitlynne]

Well, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a completely inexperienced sub, but to me part of the search is a process of learning about myself and my needs and desires. As I'm contacted by potential Doms, I learn what interests they might have, and decide from my internal response after talking to them what I feel about new concepts. Maybe I add it to my profile as something I'm interested in or that might be a limit, maybe not. Still, it helps guide me to what I think I need, and makes my search that much easier.

So for me the concept of red flags is more about weeding out the liars. For example, I've corresponding with a very nice Dom who is interrupted almost every time we chat and disappears often with no goodbye. Sometimes he is not back for a day or two. He has many explanations, and they may all be true. But, he could also have lied and be hiding our chats from a wife. As long as I'm keeping my eyes open and using sensible safety precautions, I don't worry too much.

I try to keep an open mind about limits, and as part of this have learned to convey early on that while my profile doesn't have many limits, it is only because I have littie experience. I could try something new and love it, or find it's a limit. I expect Doms to be demanding from the start, and to know what they want, and if I'm not upfront it's a waste of both of our time. But communicating about D/s limits and interests is the same to me as discussing our vanilla interests. I really want to have some other things in common too, the kind of thing that the online sites don't really get to in their profiles.

I do like hearing about actual experiences other subs have had in their online searches, both good and bad. It gives me good ideas, such as the great safety tips that are mentioned many times. And the success stories - they keep me going. So to all of you who have shared, thank you.

P.S. First "real" post. Please be gentle.

Nice post. If you ae new and exploring, then be new and explore. That's where you are, and that's OK to communicate to those you meet. Just like you did just now.

As to red flags, we all have an internal "lie detector". Use it. Trust it. If things are going too fast or too far, then it's too fast and too far, too soon. My only point was to look inside to find the reasons why you can't submit as well as to look at the Dominant. It's a way of learning who you are internally and how you tick. And that ain't a bad thing....

 

[fishercat]

If things are going too fast or too far, then it's too fast and too far, too soon. My only point was to look inside to find the reasons why you can't submit as well as to look at the Dominant. It's a way of learning who you are internally and how you tick.:

Yes, looking inside myself to understand why I can't submit is just where I'm at right now. Figuring out what I *can* do is easy, understanding why some things seem hard is something else. And if I don't understand why I can't do something, how can I explain it to anyone? And then there are the things I just am not interested in doing or becoming in a relationship. Like I'd make a lousy house slave. It's all about the communication and self-revelation.

And thanks for boosting my bravery in posting.

 

[x_ShimmeR_x]

My red flags personally are due to my lack of ability to trust..
& that I am a switch...
I have been burned alot in the nilla world & it takes ALOT for me to trust.
ANYONE that demands (not requests) total & unquestioning submission...
I back away slowly to a safe distance, say bye & run.
IF it is requested, you may capture my interest & curiousity...

I understand exactly how you feel. I have trust issues also and I can't just 'submit on demand'. I don't look down on anyone who does this -- which I think was completely unintentionally suggested through my first post in this thread -- but its not plausible for ME.

My (now ex) fiance needed a slave, he revels in micro managing or TPE
I had wayyy too much "backbone & stubborness" for his liking.

I deal with this problem myself. I'm not a switch, but I'm a naturally strong and independent person. I don't need to be controlled by another person ... I choose to give up that control willingly. I submit to someone else if they earn it, because I enjoy it, because it gets me off. Once that trust is established, I'll obey happily and beg to please ... but personally I'd never be able to satisfy a Dom who needed a completely unquestioning slave.

 

[FungiUg]

I have a strong belief in my intuition. While it's not infallible, it will often alert me to something not being quite right well before my concious mind catches up and notices.

So for me, it's about paying attention to what I am feeling and noticing, not just getting lost or carried away in the possibilities and hope.

 

[_kiana_]

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies.

I realize that the best thing for anyone to do is use their common sense, intuition, and decide for themselves what is right or wrong. I didn't mean for this to be a thread with "if someone does THIS they're a psychopath and get away from them!"

I really didn't think I'd need to make the disclaimer that everyone is an individual and that you have to use personal responsibility in regards to their own safety. Of course some people might be perfectly fine with all the 'red flags' mentioned. No two people are the same.

I just wanted to bring the topic up, not try to offend anyone or stereotype anyone or try to make out that pyls don't have any need for personal responsibility. It was just a topic.

Thank you all for contributing.

 

[JMohegan]

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies.

I realize that the best thing for anyone to do is use their common sense, intuition, and decide for themselves what is right or wrong. I didn't mean for this to be a thread with "if someone does THIS they're a psychopath and get away from them!"

I really didn't think I'd need to make the disclaimer that everyone is an individual and that you have to use personal responsibility in regards to their own safety. Of course some people might be perfectly fine with all the 'red flags' mentioned. No two people are the same.

I just wanted to bring the topic up, not try to offend anyone or stereotype anyone or try to make out that pyls don't have any need for personal responsibility. It was just a topic.

Thank you all for contributing.

From the very first post on your thread:

I realize that pyls can be dangerous as well and that they can take advantage of PYLs just as easily.

*No accounting for not using personal responsibility! Using your head and thinking for yourself is a good thing! *nod*nod*

For the record, I saw nothing in your post that was offensive or perpetuating of stereotypes or attempting to excuse submissives from personal responsibility.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Chainsaws.

Chainsaws in the dungeon.

Chainsaws in the dungeon with a concrete floor that has flood drains.

Chainsaws in the dungeon with a concrete floor that has flood drains, and a firehose on the wall.

Chainsaws in the dungeon with a concrete floor that has flood drains, and a firehose on the wall, and a pack of 100+ pound Rotteilers looking at you like you are lunch.

Chainsaws are a red flag.

*nodnodnodnod*

 

[FurryFury]

*turns around slowly, gives you "the look"*

ARE you talking to me?

Are YOU talking to me??

Are you talking to ME???

 

[FungiUg]

Chainsaws.

You gotta admit, if you had someone tied up, suspended, blindfolded, and then started up a chainsaw... god, what a mind fuck!

Sadly I don't have a chainsaw. I wonder if a weed-whacker would work?

 

[Netzach]

I don't want to play with the people who show up when you solve that little rotating box thing. Shiny box shaped puzzles are a red flag.