Religion and Homosexuality

[Tymeless]

I think you have been watching too much of the Davinci Code.

It is true that some of the bible writers were rich and powerful (David, Moses, Nehemiah, for example), but others were poor and not so powerful (Micah, Amos, Peter, Luke (who had been a slave doctor).

So It is not good to jump into conclusion so fast.

Regarding the edition, well, way before Nicea in 325, the majority of the church accepted as we know as the Bible. The rich and powerful merely assented to this.



Well, the other side was also trying to take over. Why attack only one side?



Again, you are wrong in your assumptions. Mary Magdaline was not considered a prostitute because of some painter, but because of Pope Gregory in the 6th century. Please, get your facts right.

But I agree with you that it is wrong to portray her as a prostitute, just because this became part of the church's folklore.



Well, NO. He did it because the women from Magdala, where Mary came from, had a bad reputation, until his day.

You are giving your judgment from a 21st century view, and not from a 6th view.



Again, you don't seem to know biblical history.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were held by the Essenes, a Jewish Sect, that if you have read them, are more condemming against woman than Christianity itself. So your criticism, it's funny at best, and lacking of knowledge of the scrolls or of the practices of the Essenes. An example of their views is that they rejected marriage or any sexual activity, since they saw it as impure.

No wonder they didn't survive beyond the 1st century.

So no corruption there, and no need to include them in the Canon, since most of their beliefs didn't come to pass anyway.



I am sorry, but what I see is that you haven't read enough, or at all in order to create your own beliefs.

And one thing about ancient texts, and this is an academic discipline, is that you must read ancient texts according to their context, and as to how the author meant them to be understood. Just imagine you writing a letter, and someone coming to a conclusion that you had never intended for it!!! Same with the Bible, or the US Constitution.



Well, as Mel Gibbson rightly said in "Patriot", why give up a minion 3 thousand miles away when 10,000 minions appear around us.

Or we our selves can become minions of misinformation??

Hope you hear my words.

Maz.

Maz i will not sit here and dissect what you said but you've obviously misread some of what I've said or meant or yet again I haven't articulated what I meant correctly. I did not say a painter painted mary as a prostitute I'm saying someone decided to portray her has a prostitute maybe thats a better word. I also haven't read as much as I would like on the subject matter but just like anything else in the world there have been corrupt people in charge of the church just like any other organization in the world.

Another thing in the matter is simply this we can only assume we know what was meant by the ancient text because well none of us were really around 2000 years ago to know the language or the writings. I seriously a dictionary that says this translates to this in some other language laying around. I just think people should all make their own assessments of the fact presented to them and make a judgement on it all on their own and not listen to things presented to them like its the only truth to the story.

In the end while I still have a belief in god even though through science I shouldn't and I am going to technically be a scientist once i graduate from college. My faith in organized religions have long sense be shattered, for many reasons not all listed here.

 

[emap]

You know that left me with a question, when did you read the dead sea scrolls? Last i heard they were locked away by the church and not allowing anyone to read them beyond what they had been read up to by then.

So in other words, either you were one of the original scientists who read the scrolls, you work for the church at which point I suppose you would be being fired and sued, or they have released the dead sea scrolls in such a way that the news never commented on them.

 

[Mazinger]

A bit of mis-information, yet again

You know that left me with a question, when did you read the dead sea scrolls? Last i heard they were locked away by the church and not allowing anyone to read them beyond what they had been read up to by then.

I am sorry emap, but either the last you heard of the dead sea scrolls is exactly 45 yrs out of date, or you are just following what other have said.

The first publications of the Scrolls was in 1963, in its entirety.

If you want a cheap copy, buy it from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Scro...s_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201100300&sr=1-2

So to answer your question, I've read the scrolls quite often actually, since I have to write some papers dealing with the subject.

So in other words, either you were one of the original scientists who read the scrolls,

Well, anyone can read them today, well, since 45 yrs ago actually.

you work for the church at which point I suppose you would be being fired and sued,

Well, the dead sea scrolls are not under the jurisdiction of any church, but of the Department of Antiquities of Israel.

It seems that you have been given wrong info.

or they have released the dead sea scrolls in such a way that the news never commented on them.

Well, once again, you can see the link at Amazon, or you can even download them from Logos Bible Sofware or Accordance to you hand held device.

And I may add, I went to see them 8 yrs ago when they brought them to my home city.

So please, I urge you to stop listening to so much nonsense, and really get the facts right.

It would seem to me in this tread, that most of the attacks against religion, and Christianity in particular, are not founded in facts but in misinformation.

Maz.

 

[Mazinger]

Thank you

Maz i will not sit here and dissect what you said but you've obviously misread some of what I've said or meant or yet again I haven't articulated what I meant correctly. I did not say a painter painted mary as a prostitute I'm saying someone decided to portray her has a prostitute maybe thats a better word. I also haven't read as much as I would like on the subject matter but just like anything else in the world there have been corrupt people in charge of the church just like any other organization in the world.

Another thing in the matter is simply this we can only assume we know what was meant by the ancient text because well none of us were really around 2000 years ago to know the language or the writings. I seriously a dictionary that says this translates to this in some other language laying around. I just think people should all make their own assessments of the fact presented to them and make a judgement on it all on their own and not listen to things presented to them like its the only truth to the story.

In the end while I still have a belief in god even though through science I shouldn't and I am going to technically be a scientist once i graduate from college. My faith in organized religions have long sense be shattered, for many reasons not all listed here.

Thank you for your answer TYmeless.

Maz.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Yes.

Although I would be careful calling Mary Magadline a disciple as in the same sphere of Peter, for example.

The New Testamente uses the word freely, and must not attached meaning where it is not meant at all.

Mariamne was JCs apostle / disciple. I am in reality not bullshitting you at all ! And as I said, she was one of his closests, just like the "traitor" Judas Iskariot. But in reality Judas wasn´t a traitor since Jesus asked him to do it, and I knew that, even before I even heard of the Danvinci Code. My source about the JC is not some writer, but a bible researcher by the name of Marc Goodaere who was a part of a big BBC documentary about JC, where also other people commented stuff. And yes I know my bible, but I can´t go down in the verses.

 

[Mazinger]

Mariamne was JCs apostle / disciple. I am in reality not bullshitting you at all ! And as I said, she was one of his closests, just like the "traitor" Judas Iskariot. But in reality Judas wasn´t a traitor since Jesus asked him to do it, and I knew that, even before I even heard of the Danvinci Code. My source about the JC is not some writer, but a bible researcher by the name of Marc Goodaere who was a part of a big BBC documentary about JC, where also other people commented stuff. And yes I know my bible, but I can´t go down in the verses.

Hi Wolfman.

I am acquiented with Marc Goodacre, from the NTGateway. As a matter of fact, he put a link once to one of my translations from his website.

But when I mean that Mary would not be a sort of apostle as Paul or Peter, she may be an apostle as to what happened in John 20:10-18, Jesus sending her to tell the other disciples as to the resurrection, nevertheless, we don't see her in Scripture doing missionary work as such, or holding a teaching office, as the other apostles.

Mark I think would agree with that.

There is a good book, The Sings of an Apostle by C. K. Barret, which is a good starting point in this subject.

Thank you.

Maz

 

[Wolfman1982]

Mazinger: it is great you know who he is. But JC did say, that Mariamne was one of his disciples. And that is in the bible. Before the crucifiction / crucifixion. Anyway I don´t want to fight over it, but I am not playing with you either. And well there is of course the gnostic gospel of Mariamne by the way.

 

[voir]

A recent thread got me to thinking.

I was raised with the mindset that homosexuality is an abmonition in the eyes of religion...

One thing that a lot of people forget is that "religion" does not necessarily equate to Christianity. I'm sure that's what you meant by the term, but I want to point out that, as it's not the only game in town, Christianity should not be the one opinion you listen to.

I imagine Islam is similar to Christianity's views on sexuality. I'm not so sure about Judaism, but I wouldn't be surprised. Personally, I'm Buddhist. The Dharma teachings on sex boil down to "as long as no one gets hurt". There was even a branch of Buddhism in India that explored the enlightening potential of sex.

I'm not trying to be preachy or bring up the whole "which is the one true god?" argument, I just want to remind people there is more than one 'religious' opinion on the subject of sexuality.

 

[alaskabibear]

Boy this is fun! But I do hope that no burning at the stake gets started - LOL

I've already written briefly above about who and how the Christian religion progressed from a few frightened disciples to a more organized group of believers. But I think it is worth saying again that ALL religions are of and by humans. That does not automatically mean that they are not valid or that they hold forth no truth. (that would be somewhat equivalent to saying that "science" is invalid because it is of and by man - religion, like science, has some truths and some mistakes). That said, I think it is very important to distinguish the different kind of "proofs" that one uses in science and in things like religion.

Science is presumably based on the "scientific method", which in summary states that "any theory must be observable and repeatable". It is the greatest folly to attempt to use this criteria to "prove" or "disprove" things like; the existence of God, is Jesus fact or fiction, was the earth created in 6 days, evolution, the beginning of time and the universe, etc.

Other things like religion, history, evolution, etc. must be proven by another method. This is sometimes referred to as the "evidential method". This is the same method used in our courtrooms to make a decision based on the best evidence available. It also has in it elements of logic, inner intuitions and just plain 'ole "gut feel". It is foolish indeed to try and "prove scientifically" those things that fall outside of the realm of science.

So when it comes to things of God, it really starts with the individuals own inner voice - does that voice say; "there must be more to life than just what I can see with my eyes, truly I believe that we are both flesh and spirit, there must be someone who created all of this..."- or does it say; "I am just an advanced animal, there is no God...". IF the person does intuitively "know" that there is something more, then the appropriate path would be to forget about the "scientific method" and turn to the "evidential" model to put together enough evidence to come to a logical conclusion.

Now, with that said, lets look at Mary Magdalene. Using the "evidential" method, if one would go back to the most ancient sources of Christian Church historical records one would find that she is a very prominent figure in the earliest writings. The fact that the gospel accounts indicate that it was she (a woman) to whom the risen Christ first appeared is so significant. The fact that the gospel writers even mentioned her in this setting is a bit of "evidential" truth. It's hard for us with our modern acceptance of women to see the significance of the honesty in the writers attempt to be accurate in showing her as worthy above a man to have seen the risen Lord first. Also, taking a look at the written traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Church (remember, it was these folks who gave us Christianity by passing on the traditions of the Apostles and the canon of scripture - hey, it's their "religion after all - shouldn't we take the time to see what they have to say about it?). So, here is what the Orthodox say about Mary Magdalene; "One of the myrrh-bearing women and equal to the apostles, Mary was born in the town of Magdala, along the shores of Lake Gennesaret, of the tribe of Issachar. She was tormented by seven evil spirits - from which she was freed by the Lord Jesus and made whole. She was a faithful follower and servant of the Lord during His earthly life. She stood beneath the Cross on Golgatha, and grieved bitterly with the Lord's Mother. After the death of the Lord she visited His sepulcher three times. When the Lord rose again she saw him on two occasions: once by herself, and once with the other myrrh-bearing women.... [she worked along side of] St. John in the work of preaching the Gospel [in Ephesus]. With great zeal for the Faith and as a true apostle of Christ, she proclaimed the Holy Gospel to the world. She died peacefully in Ephesus..." (from, The Prologue of Ohrid, vol. two). Mary Magdalene is recognized as a Saint by the Orthodox and is honored as such on July 22nd each year.

I hope that this helps with the "Mary" issue, but more importantly I hope that it helps others try to somehow better evaluate and approach questions of faith. I have many "atheist" friends and it pains me to see that sometimes these good folk do more investigation about God than some "believers". In fact, I would say that most "atheists" are really more "agnostic" than atheist. They have searched for the truth about God, but just haven't yet found the convincing "proof" they need to believe in a God. So, hopefully this will help believer and non-believer alike to better search for the truth we all seek.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Bibear: I do believe in God, but I am not a Christian, in the socalled "Christian" way. But I do believe in God, but I was taught the christian teachings which is humanism. And NOT Satanism in anyway at all !

So here goes again with me and how the fuck I have chosen to stay away from the BS of it all.

I follow the karma rules, I believe in God. But I see science as a way of explaining most stuff, and mathematics to back it up. But even the greatest scientists around. Believe in God, not because of their upbringing or anything like that. But because they believe in God, whether God is male, female or a hermaphrodite who has all colours.

One of my friends explains it this way, about God.

God is like a diamond, but we only see one or two facets, and we call it Allah, Yahweh Iehovah/Jehovah Zarathustra and so forth. But we can´t fathom more than those two facets. I see "God" as the ultimate being. And not the god who created earth alone. And there needs two to a Tango, and God was NOT the male part in JCs Tango. But I do like the song Lord Of The Dance. Which has even been translated to my language as Dansens Herre, and I will enjoy singing Lord Of The Dance on the 17. of March, because there it is Saint Patricks day, and I feel connected with the Irish People. Through language and history. And I respect the irish man or woman, if they can behave.

 

[Absolute_Kaos]

Lots of straight men commit worse abominations then sucking a dick.

 

[robbie_boy1]

I live in New Hampshire and we have a gay bishop...
I always wondered, where did the first *holy shit* come from?

I sit and ponder that...did Peter utter those words? Maybe it was Mary Magz? Pope Paul.......
ok...sorry if I am wrong just trying to bring a little joy to this thread.......if I am wrong.........Excuse Me! *best Steve Martin voice*

 

[alaskabibear]

I live in New Hampshire and we have a gay bishop...
I always wondered, where did the first *holy shit* come from?

I sit and ponder that...did Peter utter those words? Maybe it was Mary Magz? Pope Paul.......
ok...sorry if I am wrong just trying to bring a little joy to this thread.......if I am wrong.........Excuse Me! *best Steve Martin voice*

You succeeded, that ponder brought a smile to my face (and probably to God's too).

 

[alaskabibear]

Bibear:....

One of my friends explains it this way, about God.

God is like a diamond, but we only see one or two facets, and we call it Allah, Yahweh Iehovah/Jehovah Zarathustra and so forth. But we can´t fathom more than those two facets. I see "God" as the ultimate being. And not the god who created earth alone...

Wolfman,

I chose this part of your post because I think it is a great analogy. In fact it reflects the thinking of Christians from the earliest times to this day - that God is transcendent, which means that God is beyond the limits of human knowledge - that God transcends our universe (and how can humans even begin to imagine or speculate what exists beyond the outer edge of our ever expanding universe? Much less the God who created it. Man, that just blows my mind!) Regardless of the words or thoughts we may have about God, they are never adequate to describe the essence of God - God is beyond knowing, except in those things that God has chosen to reveal.

Dance, dance, wherever you may be - I'm the Lord of the Dance, the Dance says He - and I will live in you, if you will live in Me - 'cause I am the Lord of the Dance says He!

 

[Wolfman1982]

Dance, dance, wherever you may be - I'm the Lord of the Dance, the Dance says He - and I will live in you, if you will live in Me - 'cause I am the Lord of the Dance says He!

Wonderful thing about folksongs, there are a few variations of some words in the verses. But all in all I like the song. You can always search the lyrics, since it is a wonder what lies on the net around lyrics of folksongs But it looks like it isn´t really a folksong

or is it a pagan song ? it doesn´t matter really it is a good song

 

[ozzie.d]

Fuck organised religion and pity the mindless fools that fall prey to its teachings.

Look at how some of the right wingers are reacting to the death of Heath Ledger: "a fornicator who is now in hell"

 

[voir]

Okay, I tried to hold my toungue, but Wolfman1982 and ozzie.d serving up the same self-serving form of justification that made me very anti-religion when I was young.

Wolfman1982:
"I follow the karma rules, I believe in God. "
What are the "karma rules"? A understanding of of the Dharma requires all its principles as they are all inter-connected and inter-dependant. And, for the record, Christian doctrine says it is a sin to "follow the karma rules" since that comes from Buddist and Hindu teachings.

"God is like a diamond, but we only see one or two facets...we can´t fathom more than those two facets...And there needs two to a Tango, and God was NOT the male part in JCs Tango."
So, which is it - do you admit you cannot fathom God or do you have some divine revelation that has defined God's nature? You don't know anything but you're sure that God requires two-gender reproduction?

ozzie.d:
The selfish and cruel misuse of philosophies by people with an agenda does not invalidate the ideas they bastardize. Organized religion as a category of human activity and culture has definite, positive uses. It is merely a tool for propogating and practicing a set of teachings. Is a hammer good or bad, or is threatening someone with a hammer what needs to be judged?

I don't mean to sound vindictive - please take it in the spirit of constructive criticism in which it is offered. I have spent a long time debating and considering such questions and I get frustrated with superficial "revalations". That kind of thinking only supports the willful ignorance that is the cause of so much suffering in this world.

 

[alaskabibear]

Wonderful thing about folksongs, there are a few variations of some words in the verses. But all in all I like the song. You can always search the lyrics, since it is a wonder what lies on the net around lyrics of folksongs But it looks like it isn´t really a folksong

or is it a pagan song ? it doesn´t matter really it is a good song

Wolfman, I thought you might like it. It's just the chorus part of an old hippie/Christian song from the 60's and 70's

 

[Wolfman1982]

Voir: do to others what you want them to do with you. That is the damn karma rules, what the fuck did you think I thought off ?

If I can´t behave properly, then the people around me will react to that, if I can behave. Then people around me will react to that. Anyway, that is the golden karma rule to me. And "I am the Light" vs. "I am the enlightened" is not really that far-fetched. And who knows where JC was from he was in Synagogue till the day you saw him years afterwards.

Voir: I am not worshipping any human being. That Is why I am not believing that JC was God. I believe JC was a human being, and not an omnipotent entity. But he was a good human being.

 

[voir]

Voir: do to others what you want them to do with you. That is the damn karma rules, what the fuck did you think I thought off ?

If I can´t behave properly, then the people around me will react to that, if I can behave. Then people around me will react to that. Anyway, that is the golden karma rule to me. And "I am the Light" vs. "I am the enlightened" is not really that far-fetched. And who knows where JC was from he was in Synagogue till the day you saw him years afterwards.

Voir: I am not worshipping any human being. That Is why I am not believing that JC was God. I believe JC was a human being, and not an omnipotent entity. But he was a good human being.

If you took the "karma rule" seriously you would 1) not be swearing at me about needing to treat people nicely and 2) would be able to define more than 'if I can behave'. That was my point, not some personal attack.

I agree with you about not worshiping any human being and Jesus being a good man. I think I take that to its logical conclusion, though, in that I do not worship any being. To set things apart from myself as being sacred is only going to inhibit my experience of Oneness. I am no more different from you, or Jesus or Buddha, than two waves on the ocean are different from each other.

Which, to bring this thread back to it's intent, is why I don't see any logic in denying the equality of homosexual and hetersexual love. If we are all the same, and I can enjoy sex and love, then how could it be that other people would be different?

 

[Wolfman1982]

Voir: about the cursing and swearing, who said I was perfect ?

 

[voir]

Voir: about the cursing and swearing, who said I was perfect ?

Haha - I'm sure hell not!

 

[Guest]

Yanno, I think I have a couple of "truths" (little "t") that are probably valid. Maybe for a microsecond somebody lifted the veil on the universe and I snuck a peek. Dunno. But they resonate inside me.

I DO know that, even if they came straight from the Creator, I'm not going to write them down and insist that other people recognize them as THE TRUTH and live their lives by them.

And I'm sure as hell not going to use my little "truths" to judge other people, or their actions.

I think the Creator would be displeased.

 

[Wolfman1982]

I know, this is an ancient thread. But anyway the latest JC news I have seen and heard is as follows. I saw a National Geographic documentary the other day (which was translated ) on the television station DR2 which stands for Denmarks Radio 2, and when they (DR/Denmarks Radio) do their homework. Then the only source you have to doubt is the original source and not the Danish station. But anyway I saw a documentary about the Nak Hamadi scrolls, and there is a tale from let us call it JC´s "hidden years" / "missing years". About JC going to India (or was it Nepal ?) and JC gets taught in Buddhism and Hinduism , and well now we can all go fucking mental and shout shit and stuff. But it makes perfect sense to me after all, since "his" sentence "do to others what you want them to do you" , is not his, but a revision of Confucius sentence "do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" basically. And that leads me back to both the karma part, his temptations out of the desert and low and behold his "I am the light" vs. "I am the enlightened" which Siddhartha said.

There are TOO damn many similarities between Buddhism and what JC said and did. Which strangely enough makes me believe a few things.