Research question: 19'th Century Railroad Experience

[MillieDynamite]

Like I said, he knew it wasn't right but chose not to concentrate on being ferried across and getting on a new train. Since he's a total history nut like my father, I'm sure he knew the railroads and where they'd have been changing trains here and there. He's working on a novel set in late 1866—mid-1867 about the RR Police on the Union Pacific, Eastern Division, protecting payroll and workers laying track through the Kansas plains from KC westward.

Probably the Eads Bridge at St. Louis would be the one you used to cross the Mississippi and that didn't open until 1874. I'd have to look up the railroad that ran from St. Louis to Kansas City.

 

[MillieDynamite]

After May 10, 1869, one route ran from the east coast to the west coast. Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads were, for some time, the only route from coast to coast.

So, just out of interest, I thought I'd research when the first service actually went coast to coast in the US. And 'uncle Google' (as my daughter calls it) is not being very helpful with this information. It happily repeats, again and again (regardless of the varieties of search terms I use), the date of the golden spike ceremony, and then points out that this didn't actually fully join the coasts (yes! I know now, thank you Google). Anyone got any idea when the first actual through service ran (east to west or vice verse)?

 

[gunhilltrain]

So, just out of interest, I thought I'd research when the first service actually went coast to coast in the US. And 'uncle Google' (as my daughter calls it) is not being very helpful with this information. It happily repeats, again and again (regardless of the varieties of search terms I use), the date of the golden spike ceremony, and then points out that this didn't actually fully join the coasts (yes! I know now, thank you Google). Anyone got any idea when the first actual through service ran (east to west or vice verse)?

It appears to be five days after the connection was finished. They may have started freight service about the same time.

https://www.up.com/heritage/history...ha,significant advantages in passenger travel.

 

[MillieDynamite]

However, the Union Pacific Eastern Divison was completed by 1870ish, to Denver and tracks had been laid to Denver from Cheyenne to Denver by that time.

 

[StillStunned]

Hard to believe, but even with flush toilets the practice of dumping onto the tracks continued until the Amtrak era. Everything they ordered after 1971 had retention tanks (like a bus or airplane). Near the end of the "heritage fleet" (the cars they inherited from the private companies) they needed a waiver from the FRA to operate the last of the old sleeping cars.

Where I live that was standard until at least the early 1990s. You could see through the toilet onto the tracks, and it was not done to use the toilet while the train was at a station.

 

[gunhilltrain]

My editor and publisher has an anachronism in his western novel, Michelle Tanner Going West. He knew it wasn't accurate but didn't think it was that important. He had the railroad dead end in KC in 1864, which isn't the mistake. He had them cross the Mississippi River via a bridge in 1864. Also, most of the tracks in Missouri were constantly being repaired. It was the Civil War, after all. And the Bridge hadn't been built for the Kansas Pacific Railroad yet. It wasn't even the Kansas Pacific Railroad until you left Kansas City.

What city did she start her journey in?

 

[TheWritingGroup]

You're welcome! Do you have destinations figured out yet? ...

The story requires that this be a return journey from Chicago to New York. I haven't done the research yet (obviously) but I can't imagine that this route wouldn't be one of the first ones to open and always busy.

-Billie

 

[MillieDynamite]

Washington DC. But at the time, it was called Washington City.

What city did she start her journey in?

 

[Comshaw]

Here's a map of all the train tracks in America in 1850. They traveled at 15-20 mph so even though it was a lot faster than a wagon or stage coach, by today's standards it was slow going.



I also ran into this from the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. The first paragraph is a description of American train travel in the 1840's by Charles Dickens.

https://hsp.org/sites/default/files/legacy_files/migrated/studentreadinglifeontherails_revised.pdf

Comshaw

 

[MillieDynamite]

And as a side note, until statehood, Denver was Denver City.

 

[Bazzle]

The one railroad fact.

The size of the US space rockets were the width of two horses in the 1980's...

Because they were transported by rail.

Railways used the gauge of a carriage pulled by horses.

So...you can link two horse backsides to the space rockets m

 

[TarnishedPenny]

So, just out of interest, I thought I'd research when the first service actually went coast to coast in the US. And 'uncle Google' (as my daughter calls it) is not being very helpful with this information. It happily repeats, again and again (regardless of the varieties of search terms I use), the date of the golden spike ceremony, and then points out that this didn't actually fully join the coasts (yes! I know now, thank you Google). Anyone got any idea when the first actual through service ran (east to west or vice verse)?

The first transcontinental train rolled into Port Moody, BC in 1886. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_374). Port Moody is on the Pacific coast just east of Vancouver. I’d be surprised if there wasn’t an earlier one south of the 49th parallel, but we know this date.

Edit/Update. I believe the first train from out east hit San Francisco in 1869.

 

[Duleigh]

It was Pullman that invented the vestibule between coaches to enable people to get to his dining carriages from their compartments.

No, vestibules existed before Pullman existed, The conductor had to move through the train so vestibules were made for him, not passengers. You spoke of vestibules between coaches then you mention compartments. Coaches do not have compartments. Pullman invented sleeping cars and that's where compartments came from.

One of the options for long trips was, as noted, a greasy-spoon cafe near the station.

Don't let a following of the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe hear you say that. The Santa Fe built hotel/restaurants along the tracks for the trains to stop in to feed the passengers. These were called Harvey houses and they competed to be the best on the line. The hotel wasn't for passengers it was for the "Harvey Girls" that worked in the Harvey Houses. The Harvey Girls had strict standards of conduct and became a settling agent for the American west. To this day a few Harvey Houses exist, my favorite in in Las Vegas New Mexico.

BTW - I did write a train story. It takes place on Terry Pratchett's discworld, but I replaced Terry Pratchett's train with an all American 1860's style combined train, an American classic. A combined train is a freight train with passenger cars on the back, I don't think too many other countries did that. My story is Happy Hogswatch and I put a bit of effort into it.

 

[Duleigh]

They traveled at 15-20 mph so even though it was a lot faster than a wagon or stage couch, by today's standards it was slow going.

The big thing wasn't the speed, it was the tonage that a train could haul. Any pair of horses could pull a wagon, but moving hundreds of tons with a single "tea kettle" locomotive blew the minds of Victorian Americans. The railroad became a weapon for the first time in the American civil war when it was used to haul troops and cannon.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Where I live that was standard until at least the early 1990s. You could see through the toilet onto the tracks, and it was not done to use the toilet while the train was at a station.

I don't remember that being done on the commuter/regional rail trains I used, but those were usually short trips of less than an hour. By the time I was regularly using them, the equipment was modern. A commuter train might have one restroom for a six or eight car train.

 

[gunhilltrain]

No, vestibules existed before Pullman existed, The conductor had to move through the train so vestibules were made for him, not passengers. You spoke of vestibules between coaches then you mention compartments. Coaches do not have compartments. Pullman invented sleeping cars and that's where compartments came from.

Don't let a following of the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe hear you say that. The Santa Fe built hotel/restaurants along the tracks for the trains to stop in to feed the passengers. These were called Harvey houses and they competed to be the best on the line. The hotel wasn't for passengers it was for the "Harvey Girls" that worked in the Harvey Houses. The Harvey Girls had strict standards of conduct and became a settling agent for the American west. To this day a few Harvey Houses exist, my favorite in in Las Vegas New Mexico.

BTW - I did write a train story. It takes place on Terry Pratchett's discworld, but I replaced Terry Pratchett's train with an all American 1860's style combined train, an American classic. A combined train is a freight train with passenger cars on the back, I don't think too many other countries did that. My story is Happy Hogswatch and I put a bit of effort into it.

If you see footage of passenger trains up to the 1960s, they usually had several "head-end cars" to carry mail and express shipments. The Post Office pulled mail from the railroads in 1967, which was a big blow to passenger trains.

Mixed trains were usually freight trains that had maybe or or two passenger cars, usually in the rear. This one is in Canada, not sure of the date.

http://www.railpictures.ca/upload/t...-summer-day-…-the-mixed-trains-were-well-patr

 

[gunhilltrain]

The story requires that this be a return journey from Chicago to New York. I haven't done the research yet (obviously) but I can't imagine that this route wouldn't be one of the first ones to open and always busy.

-Billie

Even in 1850, the map @Comshaw posted above shows at least one route that did that. By 1870, there were more options.

 

[Comshaw]

The big thing wasn't the speed, it was the tonage that a train could haul. Any pair of horses could pull a wagon, but moving hundreds of tons with a single "tea kettle" locomotive blew the minds of Victorian Americans. The railroad became a weapon for the first time in the American civil war when it was used to haul troops and cannon.

I agree that for cargo the capacity of a train was the big selling factor. But for passengers the speed, distance traveled and relative comfort of a train were the selling point. Even the third-class immigrant cars with the bare minimum (IE; wooden unpadded benches, a cooking stove for the entire car) were much preferable to the 18-20 miles per day a horse, coach or wagon could take one. I haven't been able to find it but I wonder what the average travel time from New York to Chicago was for a train compared to a horse or wagon? I'll have to see if I can find that info.

I have read historical accounts of the transcontinental train, in its early years of operation, being stopped for one or two days while a herd of Buffalo crossed the tracks in front of it. Many train riders also used Buffalo for target practice. From the accounts I read there were thousands shot from the train just for fun.

Comshaw

 

[Bazzle]

No, vestibules existed before Pullman existed, The conductor had to move through the train so vestibules were made for him, not passengers. You spoke of vestibules between coaches then you mention compartments. Coaches do not have compartments. Pullman invented sleeping cars and that's where compartments came from.

Don't let a following of the Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe hear you say that. The Santa Fe built hotel/restaurants along the tracks for the trains to stop in to feed the passengers. These were called Harvey houses and they competed to be the best on the line. The hotel wasn't for passengers it was for the "Harvey Girls" that worked in the Harvey Houses. The Harvey Girls had strict standards of conduct and became a settling agent for the American west. To this day a few Harvey Houses exist, my favorite in in Las Vegas New Mexico.

BTW - I did write a train story. It takes place on Terry Pratchett's discworld, but I replaced Terry Pratchett's train with an all American 1860's style combined train, an American classic. A combined train is a freight train with passenger cars on the back, I don't think too many other countries did that. My story is Happy Hogswatch and I put a bit of effort into it.

Hi @Duleigh ohh... Maybe it was the rubber bit between carriages he invented so customers didn't get wet and dusty between carriages.

 

[Writer61]

Coaches do not have compartments. Pullman invented sleeping cars and that's where compartments came from.

That may be true for the US, but in the UK the first coaches were essentially a stage coach on rails with a single compartment. As the carriages got longer they would add more, but with no way of moving between them..

In 1838 Brunel constructed a carriage which was styled a “grand saloon” for the GWR (Broad Gauge) but I don't think they were common. The first Pullman car was on the LMS in 1875. The side corridor with sitting compartments evolved as a compromise. The first dining cars were introduced in 1879 on the London-Leeds route (LNER) so corridors and vestibules would be needed on these trains, but were less common on suburban stock.

Even today some European carriages have a side corridor + sitting compartment layout, typically for 1st class, with open plan for second.

 

[Bazzle]

That may be true for the US, but in the UK the first coaches were essentially a stage coach on rails with a single compartment. As the carriages got longer they would add more, but with no way of moving between them..

In 1838 Brunel constructed a carriage which was styled a “grand saloon” for the GWR (Broad Gauge) but I don't think they were common. The first Pullman car was on the LMS in 1875. The side corridor with sitting compartments evolved as a compromise. The first dining cars were introduced in 1879 on the London-Leeds route (LNER) so corridors and vestibules would be needed on these trains, but were less common on suburban stock.

Even today some European carriages have a side corridor + sitting compartment layout, typically for 1st class, with open plan for second.

I think that is where my knowledge is coming from...they may have been ahead of UK!

 

[NewOldGuy77]

Hi,

I'm working on a story that takes place entirely aboard a train in the 1850s. I know something about later Nineteenth Century railroads, but not much about the 1850s ones. I'm going to read Mark Twain's Roughing It (no hardship, I like Twain) but can anyone suggest any other resources (books, sites, documentaries, YouTube creators)? For another story, the eloquent and generous @baffling8929 was super helpful, so ... I don't suppose there are mid-Nineteenth-Century railroad buffs hanging around here?

I don't expect to need stuff like the diameter of the water pipe feeding the boiler. I'm do need things like how rough the ride was, how dining service worked on interstate trips, how many classes of passenger the train might have, and how likely they were to mingle.

Thanks in advance.
-Billie

Ambrose’s Nothing Like It in the World would be good for resource material. Railroad scholars took issue with the accuracy in parts, but it’s a good start.

 

[Duleigh]

Hi @Duleigh ohh... Maybe it was the rubber bit between carriages he invented so customers didn't get wet and dusty between carriages.

Pullman was a car builder, he probably did invent the bellows, by the time that came out almost all passenger cars were Pullman cars.
Personally I wonder if he developed them to keep people from standing in the vestibules. On nice days that was a favorite place to stand for fresh air, smoke a cigar, and watch the country roll past. People tended to fall off.

 

[Duleigh]

The first Pullman car was on the LMS in 1875.

The Pullman company didn't open shop in the UK until 1888. He could not compete with George Nagelmackers, a Belgian, who formed a sleeping car service, the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits but in 1888 they went into partnership. You may be using the term Pullman as an adjective to describe the car, but in the US the word Pullman refers strictly to the company who built the cars and the service the company provided the railroads.

 

[Writer61]

The Pullman company didn't open shop in the UK until 1888.

Not according to the British Pullman Society which says that Pullman started operating in the UK in 1874 at the behest of the Midland Railway (link). Wikipedia says the same, and another article says 1876.

The BPS says the very first US-built UK-assembled carriage is one of two conserved at the Midland Railway Centre. Wikipedia also lists a Parlour First from 1876 that is preserved (sort of) as a house in Selsey.