Risk and BDSM

[Pachet]

If you think that breathplay isn't a flaming potato of controversy in the kink world wherever you take it, you might want to investigate "The Jay Wiseman article" and the ongoing shitstorming over this.

I read it, a long time ago. It scared the crap out of me and made me swear off breathplay... for a while anyway. But I like it too much to not do it, so I started again, but only light stuff. Not to unconsciousness, no ropes, plastic bags, ect. Minimizing risk as best I can, admitting that there will always be some.

Also, someone saying "this is a terrible idea" isn't saying "there must be a law against." When your perversion is fairly edge to the point of indefensible (and some of my psych/ego play has been) then you just live with that, that they're right, but you're you.

I don't know if I can get to "they're right". I feel like I am the captain of my own soul, as is any edgeplay partner of mine. Only we know the reasons we like our particular edgeplay and why the risks are worth it to us when they're not to 99% of the population... so I don't feel like I can say someone who is saying we shouldn't do it is "right" that we shouldn't do it... maybe just right that it is risky as hell and not worth it for most people.

 

[Keroin]

Really? It seems to be pretty wide considering that quite a few members of this board who usually treat every poster with a basic respect, became hostile, condescending and rude when I spoke about my personal kink.

Nope. I've seen several people taken to task, sometimes with a great deal of hostility, over their personal kinks here. I'm sure it sucks to be on the receiving end but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Actually, I see it as communal self-policing.

And it's not just kinks. Try starting a thread about how you're having an affair. See how well that is received.

I've seen (no hyperbole) kinder responses on this forum to people who spoke about fantasizing about fucking children. So forgive me if the gulf feels a bit wide to me.

Because it's generally understood that lots of people fantasize about really fucked up, illegal, unethical shit. It may horrify us or squick us out but as long as it remains only a fantasy, so what?

And if someone ends up dead through play, it doesn't really matter how, and that's the part you won't see. I know you will say "but a not breathing person could be revived". But someone shot in the arm could be brought to the hospital and most likely live. Or a not breathing person might never start breathing again, and someone shot in the chest might bleed out before getting to the ER.

I get it, Dead is dead. I'm talking about the odds, I'm talking about the length of time from "oops" to injured or dead. I talked about BASE jumping, right? You can die skydiving as well but no one who BASE jumps would argue that it is infinitely more dangerous than skydiving. Degrees of risk. This is the "getting to the outcome" part. Both jumpers could die but the skydiver has a much longer period of time to deal with problems and much fewer hazards than a BASE jumper, so the odds are survival are far better.

All extreme edgeplay may be risky but not all are equally risky. I would put play with a loaded gun as one the most risky forms of edgeplay, if not the riskiest.

That's because I've already admitted it's an extreme risk, but said that for me it's worth it. Again, if you die from play, does it really matter how?

I say "metal object" because people seem to think death via gun is so much worse than death via strangulation or electrocution. And I think that's ridiculous.

I know a gun is a weapon - I love that it's a weapon.

I get that. But can you see how your words appear as "writing them off"?

I don't recall seeing anyone's edgeplay criticized like this, but then I've been away from the forum for a long time and just started reading again a few months ago - not saying I don't believe you, just that I haven't seen it.

Fair enough. Let me assure you, they have been criticized. Soundly. You sound like a reasonably intelligent person, so you can't say, given the raging public debates over guns, that you didn't expect a negative reaction. Really? Especially with statements such as:

"...there is really nothing like looking down and seeing a loaded weapon jammed into your neck so hard it's pushing the slide back. "

An interesting contrast to:

If anyone is reading my words and thinking that they want to try gunplay, my advice to them is...<snip>

We all choose our own level of risk, and which risks are worth taking and which aren't. I think base jumping looks like it would be amazing, but I would never do it, because I'm convinced MY chute would be the one that wouldn't open.

I have a friend who directs extreme sports films. He was recently telling me and L about the film McConkey--about extreme skier and BASE jumper Shane McConkey. My friend said, "Yeah, he died a few years ago." I asked how and L (who had never heard of this fellow) said, "He was a BASE jumper." As in, Duh, how else would he die? He was right, of course. McConkey died BASE jumping. BTW, L was an avid skydiver for years. He also thinks BASE jumping is stupid.

Risk is risk but I separate risk in BDSM from general risk because like it or not our flavour of fun is not socially acceptable and comes with all kinds of stigma attached. There are also legal considerations.

So, yes, we all choose our own level and types of risk but I don't think it's a terrible idea to ask ourselves why we choose the risks we do and examine what makes them worth it to us.

 

[MeekMe]

So... Taking risk, I draw lines quickly. How'd this become "Gunplay 2: The Loaded Question"?

( ;>_>) (<_<; ) ( :>_>)

 

[Pachet]

Nope. I've seen several people taken to task, sometimes with a great deal of hostility, over their personal kinks here. I'm sure it sucks to be on the receiving end but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Actually, I see it as communal self-policing.

I'm not saying it's bad to talk about it. And I expected some negative reactions, I just didn't expect the level of it, or the anger from people when, even after they told me why they thought it was wrong, I said I had no plans to stop.

And it's not just kinks. Try starting a thread about how you're having an affair. See how well that is received.

Actually you're right - I have seen that here, and it's not pretty.

Because it's generally understood that lots of people fantasize about really fucked up, illegal, unethical shit. It may horrify us or squick us out but as long as it remains only a fantasy, so what?

already went over my reasoning on that in the ageplay thread

I get that. But can you see how your words appear as "writing them off"?

Maybe. But I'm not trying to write them off. It's just that I've been through all this in my own mind already, no one is telling me anything I haven't already thought of.

Especially with statements such as:

"...there is really nothing like looking down and seeing a loaded weapon jammed into your neck so hard it's pushing the slide back. "

An interesting contrast to:

If anyone is reading my words and thinking that they want to try gunplay, my advice to them is...<snip>

I'd be irresponsible if I didn't point out that there can be dire consequences if something goes wrong. So I'll take responsibility for that, up to a point. But I don't regret what I said about watching the slide go back.

I also meant what I said in the part I bolded. Hopefully people read it and take it seriously. But art (and writing and communication like messageboards are a form of art, I'd argue) is not responsible for people's own bad decisions, anymore than the makers of the Batman movie are responsible for the massacre in the movie theater in Colorado. So because I made the gunplay thread, I have no problem pointing out the risks. But in the end, it's up to the individual person how much risk they want to take and why. Do you go into the incest stories and tell the writers to make sure to write a disclaimer about not really doing incest?

It's been reiterated over and over in two threads now how big of a risk it is - I'd say anyone reading is fully informed by now, and if they still choose to do it, that's their decision.

So, yes, we all choose our own level and types of risk but I don't think it's a terrible idea to ask ourselves why we choose the risks we do and examine what makes them worth it to us.

I agree, conversation and debate are great, which is why I'm still here talking about this. My actual reasons why are pretty personal though, and not really something I'd get into here, other than to say I do it because I like it.

 

[KinkyPan]

Can I just say, as someone who is new here and doesn't know anyone involved, that I'd really like to read more thoughts on risk and BDSM?

There is a gunplay thread. I know I'm not really a part of this community (yet?) but I'd like to make the request that further arguments about it happen there, and that we move on to topics under the thread title's umbrella that haven't been so thoroughly discussed.

Disregard it or not as you see fit, but I wanted to make the request. I'm intrigued by some of the thoughts I've heard on this thread and I'd like to hear new ones.

 

[Keroin]

Can I just say, as someone who is new here and doesn't know anyone involved, that I'd really like to read more thoughts on risk and BDSM?

There is a gunplay thread. I know I'm not really a part of this community (yet?) but I'd like to make the request that further arguments about it happen there, and that we move on to topics under the thread title's umbrella that haven't been so thoroughly discussed.

Disregard it or not as you see fit, but I wanted to make the request. I'm intrigued by some of the thoughts I've heard on this thread and I'd like to hear new ones.

No worries. My bad. I enjoy a good debate and lately they've been pretty thin around here. I think the gunplay discussion has come to its natural end, anyway.

So, carry on! And welcome.

 

[LucyH]

Ha! I was reading something recently about the number of times police were called to come help people get out of handcuffs in a "romantic" situation due to misplaced keys. It was quite a high number. (I think a locksmith is a better idea).

I find that weird.

Yes, police are known to have handcuff keys, but so what? They also have cars. Do I call the police for a ride if I somehow miss the last bus home? Of course not. I call a taxi.

Do police actually show up if people call them about lost handcuff keys?

 

[Sebastian_Plz]

Ok, so I just read this thread and am quite thrilled to see other people's thoughts on what some consider 'risky' behavior in the bedroom. Without repeating what many posters have shared, including the OP who has some great opinions and insight, I think the fundamental tenet for any risky behavior is simply this: education.

A lot of behavior can be considered risky or dangerous, but to those willing to experience the event, they must first educate themselves on the principles and fundamentals of the activity/interest. And more importantly, once understanding the nuances of the engagement, the would-be participants knows and explores how their own body behave or how their initial responses will be. No one gets an activity right the first time through, it takes a lot of repetition and understanding/research to become proficient and even more so to become an expert. Much like the discussion of BASE jumping or auto erotic asphyxiation, the people that get into trouble are the ones who are often times inexperienced and/or completely reckless. That's not to say there is no danger, but there is HUGE different between taking a risk and MINIMIZING the risk. The latter, folks know what the potential dangers are, know how to mitigate them, and prepare for the numerous outcomes should something occur that is inevitable to variable change. The former, are the simpletons, the mentally unbalanced, who are blind to the dangers or willingly take on chaos because they have self-harm tendencies or an aversion to life. And those are the folks that get the most attention and spoil the activity for the bunch.....and those, IMO, are the ones that most people first encounter. The experienced ones typically avoid the nut jobs, and for some reason, its the nut-jobs that are the most outgoing and approach the curious and interested. The veterans do not solicit new members, albeit are approachable and such, but do not sell themselves, as they understand that if one is truly interested, research and education must first be done. But most folks don't want to do the necessary 'work' to get into the area of play. They would rather just take the short cut and jump right in, because, that's the rush right? So freaking wrong...

I wouldn't free climb without first studying extensively the pitch and face of a mountain. I do not engage in choke play without first knowing the difference between types of chokes, proper execution, and human physiology. I do not free dive or trek into the back country without knowing what my body's limits are, how it responds to environmental conditions, and without extensive experience or support from those who know. And that's really the point. There's nothing wrong with pushing the envelope or taking on risk. Even if those risks are, on a whole, deemed 'dangerous' by society at large. What matters is that you, the participants, educate yourselves on the experience, and surround yourself with people who have a proven, or are able to demonstrate, a high level of proficiency in the activity. When it comes to sex acts, its disturbing how many people take people at their word and just assume, oh well, b/c its taboo and this guy/gal is open to it they MUST know what they are doing. That's how people get hurt...that's how people get seriously injured...that's how people freaking die.

Anyhow, that's my take on it all. GREAT post and hope to see more comments on this thread!

 

[YourCaptor]

What if you need to go that far off the edge to get your jollies?

What if due to whatever biochemistry fuck up you just don't give a shit about risk?

 

[MzChrista]

Interesting thread. I got no desire to play Richie Aprile myself, but the gun stuff was something I have not given much thought to.

What if you need to go that far off the edge to get your jollies?

What if due to whatever biochemistry fuck up you just don't give a shit about risk?

Everything we do has some risk, let's not kid ourselves. I knew somebody one time took one whack from a cane that drew blood and got a systemic infection from it. Weeks on an IV line.

Once she got better she was ready for more cane.

So we are talking about degrees of risk. How important is getting off to you, compared to the potential downside? Nobody but you can judge that.

People in japan eat that prison fish that can kill you if the chef cuts it wrong. People go skiing in places they know are likely to have avalanches. My brother and his wife, on their honeymoon, went scuba diving in the middle of a bunch of fucking sharks.

All that shit get treated as if it tres cool in our society. But add the possibility of somebody making an O face while taking a risk and all of a sudden panties get knotted.
I suppose the only real answer is be aware. Know what risk you are taking and decide if it's worth it.

 

[YourCaptor]

Interesting thread. I got no desire to play Richie Aprile myself, but the gun stuff was something I have not given much thought to.



Everything we do has some risk, let's not kid ourselves. I knew somebody one time took one whack from a cane that drew blood and got a systemic infection from it. Weeks on an IV line.

Once she got better she was ready for more cane.

So we are talking about degrees of risk. How important is getting off to you, compared to the potential downside? Nobody but you can judge that.

People in japan eat that prison fish that can kill you if the chef cuts it wrong. People go skiing in places they know are likely to have avalanches. My brother and his wife, on their honeymoon, went scuba diving in the middle of a bunch of fucking sharks.

All that shit get treated as if it tres cool in our society. But add the possibility of somebody making an O face while taking a risk and all of a sudden panties get knotted.
I suppose the only real answer is be aware. Know what risk you are taking and decide if it's worth it.

What if the risk is it becoming too real for your victim.

When its not just personal risk.

 

[MzChrista]

What if the risk is it becoming too real for your victim.

When its not just personal risk.

A dom should always put the safety of anyone In their charge above and beyond anything else.

Not sure what you mean when you say "becoming too real". Do you mean, like, they thought they wanted to do something but then got scared?

 

[neecygirl]

I find that weird.

Yes, police are known to have handcuff keys, but so what? They also have cars. Do I call the police for a ride if I somehow miss the last bus home? Of course not. I call a taxi.

Do police actually show up if people call them about lost handcuff keys?

I've worked in law enforcement before. Trust me when I say that just because you wouldn't think of calling the cops for a ride doesn't mean it doesn't happen.... It's a phrase heard often in that line of work, but common sense isn't very common!

Come to think of it, that is valid just about everywhere.

 

[YourCaptor]

A dom should always put the safety of anyone In their charge above and beyond anything else.

Not sure what you mean when you say "becoming too real". Do you mean, like, they thought they wanted to do something but then got scared?

Well sure but safety is not a static line either.

Say for example you engage in agreed upon rape play with a girl. Afterwards she decides being raped sucks and is totally shattered.

And don't say you have to talk about it, because you can do all the talking and planning in the world and this kind of thing can still happen. It's the element of risk.

So then, what are the opinions on engaging in risk to somebody else, so that you can get your kicks?

 

[Pachet]

What if you get more out of risk than most people - more than just kicks or an orgasm? What if it's an intrinsic need? One that makes you feel whole, satisfied, and happy?

 

[Stella_Omega]

What if you get more out of risk than most people - more than just kicks or an orgasm? What if it's an intrinsic need? One that makes you feel whole, satisfied, and happy?

Oh, there are so many ways you can satisfy that need;

• Take up surfing, skydiving, spelunking
• Run for public office.
• Be a visible minority, like black or trans gender.
• Become a firefighter, police officer, mercenary

 

[KoPilot]

Oh, there are so many ways you can satisfy that need;

• Take up surfing, skydiving, spelunking
• Run for public office.
• Be a visible minority, like black or trans gender.
• Become a firefighter, police officer, mercenary

Yeah, just going from day to day being me is pretty risky. Though at least I get the benefit of appearing to have a hetero marriage (maybe a little less these days). But you're right, I could be a black trans woman. With a life expectancy of 23 years, that's about as risky as it gets.

So yay, good for you if you're in a position where you can make the choice to step into a risky situation for jollies, and then end it when you feel like it and go home and snuggle up to a $6 cup of coffee and not have to worry about being beaten to death the next day. It's great you can do that. But guess what? You're not special, you're not enlightened, and you're not cool because of it.

On the topic in general, though, there are all sorts of risky things that a person could do that has absolutely nothing to do with sex (like freeclimbing, like swimming with sharks, like getting body mods that will make you a celebrity all on their own) that the "normal person" will hate not because they're sexual, but because they're fun. Because you're doing the "wrong" thing for the "wrong" reasons. You're not ashamed of your sin. That's what terrifies people.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On the topic in general, though, there are all sorts of risky things that a person could do that has absolutely nothing to do with sex (like freeclimbing, like swimming with sharks, like getting body mods that will make you a celebrity all on their own) that the "normal person" will hate not because they're sexual, but because they're fun. Because you're doing the "wrong" thing for the "wrong" reasons. You're not ashamed of your sin. That's what terrifies people.

Although it does depend a lot on who you are. There are a lot of situations where a guy dies "doing what he loved" but a woman dies "because she didn't know the risks" (or didn't think about responsibility to stay alive for others' sakes).

 

[YourCaptor]

What if you get more out of risk than most people - more than just kicks or an orgasm? What if it's an intrinsic need? One that makes you feel whole, satisfied, and happy?

Then you give me your number. lol

But I think this feeds back into my question. Nobody gives a shit how much risk you take if you're the one that gets hurt.

However what about when someone else gets hurt.

I know some kind of line exists here, but it gets blurry when the victim is some poor innocent girl sub that society wants to adopt and love.

People don't get morally offended by the climbing partner, the sky diving pilot, the martial arts opponent, or the fugu chef. If something goes wrong and the participant gets fucked up, why don't people care as much as when the sub gets fucked up.

 

[KoPilot]

Although it does depend a lot on who you are. There are a lot of situations where a guy dies "doing what he loved" but a woman dies "because she didn't know the risks" (or didn't think about responsibility to stay alive for others' sakes).

Well, yeah. The gendered politics of risk is a cesspool.

There are X% more male basejumpers than female, because "boys will be boys" etc. Men are more likely to attempt suicide and succeed not just because guns are louder and shinier than a bottle of tylenol. Even in the ways that they kill themselves, women are more likely to be quieter about it, less of a spectacle, less of a nuisance.

Just look at the arguments for why women shouldn't be on the frontlines but men should. Sans "upper body strength" and "distractions", it's a sea of giving a shit about their uteri. Women get much more "think of the children" than men do.

 

[KoPilot]

Then you give me your number. lol

But I think this feeds back into my question. Nobody gives a shit how much risk you take if you're the one that gets hurt.

However what about when someone else gets hurt.

I know some kind of line exists here, but it gets blurry when the victim is some poor innocent girl sub that society wants to adopt and love.

People don't get morally offended by the climbing partner, the sky diving pilot, the martial arts opponent, or the fugu chef. If something goes wrong and the participant gets fucked up, why don't people care as much as when the sub gets fucked up.

Uh, consumers get angry about this sort of thing all the time. Businesses get wiped off the map because of it often enough.

 

[YourCaptor]

Uh, consumers get angry about this sort of thing all the time. Businesses get wiped off the map because of it often enough.

Thats just the american sue to get rich quick culture though.

When I was teaching people about climbing and they asked about equipment failure, sometimes I would tell them that if you do what the instructions say and the gear fails, its your lucky day because you get to sue black diamond.

I have never heard of a lawsuit against a climbing partner. In fact I just googled it and found a flame war on a guy thinking abut suing. lol

 

[MzChrista]

Well sure but safety is not a static line either.

Say for example you engage in agreed upon rape play with a girl. Afterwards she decides being raped sucks and is totally shattered.

And don't say you have to talk about it, because you can do all the talking and planning in the world and this kind of thing can still happen. It's the element of risk.

So then, what are the opinions on engaging in risk to somebody else, so that you can get your kicks?

Ok, gotcha. Good fucking question.

First thing I would say, is, if it's just about me getting my kicks, we shouldn't be doing it. I don't care what kind of True Dom propaganda people peddle, you are in it together. The reason the experience is called a power exchange is that the sub has to have power going into it. So if a sub agrees to play at something risky with me, and we both go into it well informed, and I don't just , you know, fuck up and accidentally suspend them by their neck or something, they own half the responsibility.

But your rape play example brings up another aspect, and that is that a lot of people have trip wires in their head that they don't even know about until they get snagged. A sub might think they want rape play, but then during the scene, it triggers buried memories of something and then they freak out. And Jesus, I would rather make a mistake that we can fix with bandages than one that's gonna take ten years of counseling.

And I don't think there is jackshit you can do to avoid that kind of risk.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Well sure but safety is not a static line either.

Say for example you engage in agreed upon rape play with a girl. Afterwards she decides being raped sucks and is totally shattered.

And don't say you have to talk about it, because you can do all the talking and planning in the world and this kind of thing can still happen. It's the element of risk.

So then, what are the opinions on engaging in risk to somebody else, so that you can get your kicks?

Ultimately you(general you) have to decide if you can live with the worst case scenario.
In your example and a lot of others, for the dominant person that includes being seen as the bad guy by practically everyone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And don't say you have to talk about it, because you can do all the talking and planning in the world and this kind of thing can still happen. It's the element of risk.

Ultimately you(general you) have to decide if you can live with the worst case scenario.
In your example and a lot of others, for the dominant person that includes being seen as the bad guy by practically everyone.

Blurgh, you should probably have contingency plans-- which I have probably never seriously thought about, to be frank. What you do when someone maybe your own self, doesn't come out of it easily, are we cognisant of the fact that risks can include lots of time dealing with hurt-- are we prepared for that?

I haaate thinking about serious stuff when I get my horn on!