Romance Does Not Necessarily Equal Erotica

[Sabledrake]

Anais > thanks for an excellent and informative post! The inherent double-standards like that always rather wryly amuse me. I don't read many romances because I like the hot ones (about the only ones I own are by Bertrice Small, some of the Skye O'Malley books). But I'll certainly be looking for yours. What's the title to be?

Any further tips and tidbits would be great. I'm currently trying my luck submitting to Leisure's horror department (though, mua-ha-ha, the horror novel has got lotsa sex too <g>).

My MIL once send us a romance novel she'd written. Her dutiful son read it, and when I asked him how it was going, he said he'd gotten to the start of a chapter that referred back to the characters doing it the night before. Startled, he flipped back and read more closely, and could barely tell that anything had happened. He's too used to the way I write, in which, when people do it, the reader knows

Lots of places offer for sale those little cloth covers that slide onto a paperback. But it always seems to me that using something like that just leaps out and advertises that you're reading something you don't want anyone to know you're reading. I sometimes, for fun, ask the covert covered reader about it and watch the blushing and fidgeting.

Sabledrake

 

[Whispersecret]

Funny you mention that. When I worked in a bookstore, we had this discussion about the success of what are essentially romance novels written by men. Bridges of Madison County, Message in a Bottle, etc.

Some may not be romance novels in the strictest sense (might categorize some as simply "relationship fiction"), yet, so many of them in the last ten plus years have made it to the bestsellers list in short order. And after that, it wasn't long before they made it to the big screen.

The major point was that the books were never, or rarely, categorized as romance. In fact, the word romance, was always deemphasized in the press kits. It was always a "novel that exlpores the relationship..." If the women was a writer, it would almost always be a "novel that explores the romance..." Or, "a romance about the..."

Yeah, and think about the endings of both of those "romances." Both the heroes die. What's that all about? Does writing a happy ending emasculate male writers? Does having an unhappy ending somehow make it Literature instead of Fluff?

I think part of their success is that men wrote them. Publishers can use that angle to sell books.

In my area a local retired cop wrote and "published" a romance with iBooks. (Isn't that just a step above self-publishing?) He got TONS of publicity, in print and on TV. He came and spoke to a romance group I belong to and again, the press was there taking photographs, etc. I took a look at the book. I couldn't even get past the first two pages. It was no wonder that it got rejected so many times. But he was a man, and the media gobbled it up.

 

[Whispersecret]

3. At a Romance Writers Of America Convention, I encountered dozens of women who write slash fiction of the X rated sort. But these same women went into a hissy fit when they discovered that one of the male cover models attending had once been in a pornographic film.

Hell, I was in Denver at RWA. There were cover models there? Damn, damn, damn! I didn't see that in the program!

4. About the 'romance being one step above sci fi" comment, I have actually found that to be true with publishers. I imagine the public things of them as more intelligent that most romance novels, but publishers have told me they are difficult to sell, while 40% of books sold are romance novels. My guess is that when romance readers buy books, they often buy a full month's line (four books) or more at a time, since many romances are category romances (shorter) and can be read easily in one day.

Ah, 40%! I couldn't remember the percentage before. Thanks for jogging my memory.

Yes, anything that sells more easily will be more popular with publishers. I was talking about the book reviewers. I glance at the Book Review section of the LA Times and they never review a romance.

Usually more money is put toward making the often beautiful covers of the books than is paid to the authors.

Damn. I KNEW I shouldn't have gotten out of graphic design. LOL

Well, like most writers, I don't do it so much for the money. I just want my darned book on the shelf at B&N!

 

[NoJo]

I think Literotica is a really great site, and it could well represent some kind of future for publishing. But right now I have this rather unfair attitude about how "real" publishing is getting your books on the shelf, and getting paid for it, with royalties.

I had a correspndence with a very successful (and I think brilliant) sf writer called Robert Sheckley, who was frequently published in Playboy magazine, and started the ill-fated "Omni", which was the forerunner of magazines like "wired". Sheckley was literally decades ahead of his time with science fiction, and also wrote what would now be called "cyber porn". He said that if he were starting again, he'd do what he did before, namely look around for small publishing houses that would have a lot of interest in promoting him. This is very reminiscent of the music business, where large companies will not push your stuff to the extent that smaller companies will.

I can honestly say that I think some of the writing here is actually a lot more interesting than you find on bookstore shelves. The lack of pressure to conform to publisher's norms allow people to write all kinds of stuff that appeals to a small readership, perhaps too small to be cost-effective for a publisher.

I personally feel that Literotica and other story sites could take more advantage of the multimedia capabilites of web sites, which would give them a validity that could actually make "paper publishers" worry. For example, sound and images, interactivity (e.g. allowing readers to determine the outcome of the story to an extent) are all possible.

But literotica don't even allow HTML format, let alone multimedia. This is presumably because of technical issues, and the danger of stories "linking" out of the portal to other places that could be illegal or perhaps in breach of copyright. Which is a shame for us web hackers.

 

[Anais Dahl]

I have never gotten an advance before I wrote a manuscript- but I have only written three. I get mine when it is finished but usually before I make a final draft. Different houses have different rules.

I would love to tell you my titles but me frequenting a pornography themed site would not endear me to readers and my publisher would kill me. There have been a few problems along those lines in the past for other writers. The result is never good.

Whispersecret:
I wish you all the luck in the world in getting your book on the shelves. I have not read your stories here (but I am going to when I am done here) but from your commentary you seem like a well written person. It the the most amazing thing in the world when you get that first book in the stores. My first one went on the shelves and it didn't hit me until I went into a bookstore and there it was, with my name on it. I was with friends and they picked it up and were in awe. I had never felt so good in my life. I bought a copy, and when I took it up to the counter, the clerk looked at the photo on the back flap and asked if I would sign a few copies. It makes you high.
Hang in there and it will come.

On another note- I have a flesh eating fear that I suck as a writer and that any publications of mine are a fluke.

 

[NoJo]

I would love to tell you my titles but me frequenting a pornography themed site would not endear me to readers and my publisher would kill me. There have been a few problems along those lines in the past for other writers. The result is never good.

Is the "frequenting" and issue, or the submitting? I can't believe people's private lives could be so imposed upon by publishers. Especially as they asked you for "more sex".

I'm a bit confused about this porn thing. Is there some kind offficial description of "porn", or is it just "low-falutin'" erotica?

 

[Anais Dahl]

Not really the publishers I worry about- but more the readers.

A few months ago, a writer I know revealed her published pen name on a message board similar to this one (but not this one). Problem is, she also (as I do as well) posts on the RWA boards and romantictimes.com boards. She has caught so much shit from this it has been a huge hassle for her.

It resulted in people sending her hate mail, and even threatening her because she is a "smut peddler" in their eyes. Some people stood up for her- but not many.

This will not be a popular opinion I am sure but the women romance readers I often run into are "Christian- minded" women with families and they seem to see explicit sexual themes as very wrong. Those same women buy "romance" novels featuring a hero banging the hell out of a heroine, but they say "it is a romance novel...oh and I skip past those parts." Sure they do.

My advice to any writer on this board who hopes to publish a romance novel:
Do NOT reveal your identity on the boards. It will only cause you trouble, and make publishing more difficult. Sad but true. Or at least in what I have seen, sad but true.

So yes, the world mostly sees porn as porn and makes little to no distrinction between what is porn and what is artistic.

 

[Blkpoit]

This will not be a popular opinion I am sure but the women romance readers I often run into are "Christian- minded" women with families and they seem to see explicit sexual themes as very wrong. Those same women buy "romance" novels featuring a hero banging the hell out of a heroine, but they say "it is a romance novel...oh and I skip past those parts." Sure they do.

That doesn't suprise me at all. Many of the women readers I encountered working at the bookstores, were those who had married earlier and into "Christian" relationships. And these women were the ones who bought up a lot of the books that I would personally find questionable if I called myself a Christian.

For instance, working in a bookstore that perdominately sold books by black authors. We would sell quite a few copies of whatever the latest E. Lynn Harris book was. They would have their Christian Self Help book in one hand and Harris' book in the other. So...you're going to first read about the Bisexual man and his adventures...then read how God wants you to be a chaste, sexually pure being. Hmmm. Okay.

Which brings me to the question of your audience. What age group is the target for Romance novels? Do you think it overlaps in any way the same audience that is attracted to Erotica? And, with forums like this, do you think Erotica is now finding a more mature voice?

The depth of stories I find here are vastly different then the stories that I find in places like Penthouse, or even some of those books my Aunt didn't want me to find back in the day.

Because everybody throws out that B.S. line about sex being between the ears. But, I think it's only now that that's being taken seriously. Till the last few years, in a post AIDS/Gay rights/Sexual Revolution world, sex was still an either or situation. It was either seen as frivilous or seen as some pious act, that was for some "spiritual" good.

I guess, what I'm asking is, do you see, in a few years, an actual Erotica section in your local bookstore? Books and stories that aren't blended into other sections, so the average consumer can pretend to be buying the latest Clancy or Dainelle Steel.

It's a shame that the only place you can find some of the better written Erotic fiction is online.

 

[Whispersecret]

My local Borders has an erotic section.

 

[NoJo]

Mine too. You just have to walk up brazenly and take the first one from the shelf without lingering, then explain to the young girl at the cash desk how you are writing a thesis and in any case it's for a friend, not for you... And remember to stand to one side and look disapprovingly at the man behind you in the line, when the sales girl shouts loudly to her colleague, "HEY HOW MUCH IS 'LADIES BOUND AND GAGGED' THERE'S NO DAMB BAR_CODE"...