Semantics, or something more?

[artful]

MissT,...

I am curious to see of artful agrees with me...

I do believe that there are many who are submissive or dominant, who live D/s to the degree to which they are happy and comfortable and who may never venture into using anacronyms or labels for their relationship.

It just is what it is.

Hah,...I don't know if I am dealing with MsWorthy here,...or MissT,...but you are in good company here either way,...LOL.

As most everyone knows by now,...me and Websters often don't agree on definitions. To answer your query,...I will say we probably agree on our thinking as concerns BDSM.

As I stated in my above post,..."BDSM can be established for as brief a time as agreed to by both parties,...(as little as 5 minutes in a *scene*)."

What separates it from other types of relationships is, it's honesty and truthfulness. It *is* a power exchange. One where a sub submits to a Dom/me in an area they both wish to involve themself in.

It can be sexual,...non-sexual,...or a combination of both. To me,...BDSM is about that Power Exchange,...nothing more,...and nothing less.

I think most of the water gets muddied up, by subs not understanding what they have agreed to, and therefore are disappointed in their attempts to have a BDSM relationship.

Subs,...especially inexperienced ones,...have fantasies about what BDSM is really about. They look for a Dom/me who they think is worthy and able to fulfill whatever desires they may have,... but don't take into account, desires the Dom/me may have that are contradictory to their goals,...(what it is they wish to experience).

It is self deception,...they lie to themself to get certain *Fantasies* fulfilled,...and the relationship flounders. Sometimes they stay within that relationship,...but are unhappy with many of it's aspects.

I can't stress enough, about people being honest about their own inner truth. Males,...females,...subs,...switches,...Dom/mes. What is it that you truly want?

Also,...many people think,(even experienced participants), that a Dom/me, is necessarily one who wishes to administer pain,...not true. A Dom/me is one who wishes to *control*.

They may or may not have sadistic desires. Folks, lissen up,...BDSM tents a huge diversity as to what it encompasses. The part that seems to confuse a lot of people,...is,..."What *is* it?"

It is a *Power Exchange*,...a power exchange where a sub submits to Dominance in certain areas of their life,(possibly a 5 minute scene,...possibly a lifetime), about whatever they wish to submit.
The key is honesty, and it can unlock a *total* freedom, for the sub who submits,...in those areas of their life they have submitted to a Dom/me.

(hope I answered your question)

 

[~Dream~]

Re: MissT,...

Hah,...I don't know if I am dealing with MsWorthy here,...or MissT,...but you are in good company here either way,...LOL.

As most everyone knows by now,...me and Websters often don't agree on definitions. To answer your query,...I will say we probably agree on our thinking as concerns BDSM.

As I stated in my above post,..."BDSM can be established for as brief a time as agreed to by both parties,...(as little as 5 minutes in a *scene*)."

What separates it from other types of relationships is, it's honesty and truthfulness. It *is* a power exchange. One where a sub submits to a Dom/me in an area they both wish to involve themself in.

It can be sexual,...non-sexual,...or a combination of both. To me,...BDSM is about that Power Exchange,...nothing more,...and nothing less.

I think most of the water gets muddied up, by subs not understanding what they have agreed to, and therefore are disappointed in their attempts to have a BDSM relationship.

Subs,...especially inexperienced ones,...have fantasies about what BDSM is really about. They look for a Dom/me who they think is worthy and able to fulfill whatever desires they may have,... but don't take into account, desires the Dom/me may have that are contradictory to their goals,...(what it is they wish to experience).

It is self deception,...they lie to themself to get certain *Fantasies* fulfilled,...and the relationship flounders. Sometimes they stay within that relationship,...but are unhappy with many of it's aspects.

I can't stress enough, about people being honest about their own inner truth. Males,...females,...subs,...switches,...Dom/mes. What is it that you truly want?

Also,...many people think,(even experienced participants), that a Dom/me, is necessarily one who wishes to administer pain,...not true. A Dom/me is one who wishes to *control*.

They may or may not have sadistic desires. Folks, lissen up,...BDSM tents a huge diversity as to what it encompasses. The part that seems to confuse a lot of people,...is,..."What *is* it?"

It is a *Power Exchange*,...a power exchange where a sub submits to Dominance in certain areas of their life,(possibly a 5 minute scene,...possibly a lifetime), about whatever they wish to submit.
The key is honesty, and it can unlock a *total* freedom, for the sub who submits,...in those areas of their life they have submitted to a Dom/me.

(hope I answered your question)

________________________



I agree whole heartedly with the above statement as if i know .. anyways I wish for Artful to someday find someone who can satisy HIs 'fantasies' of the 'perfect sub' .. I did my best which was all one could ask of me .. I was NOt getting the attention i SEEKED , craved and very well deserved I felt so I CHOSE to end the relationship ,things were flying way too fast for me(and I could NOt handle the possibility of him dyin on me)=TRUTH at the end and I feel he and I BOTH deserved soo much better , I didnt lie.. nope not at all , told all my hard limits in an e-mail .. got em all broken within 24 hours .. not my way at all for a GOOD relationship to flourish .. Do i seek love? hell yes do I deserve it ? yes again .. do i plunge into relationships perhaps way too fast ? maybe .. who is anyone to judge me?/ hmmm? God? I think not..
I wish all of you the best in everything .. I am happy now and truly sorry if anyone got hurt but I have my own life to worry abot , Artful helped me get in touch with my 'inner truth'' this is TRUE and for that I thank him however being an exhibitionist is not my only desire and I need MY desires fulfilled also NOT just those of my Dom .. Dracoa and I are taking things really slow , he IS interested but it will be all the more special for us both when he is ready and I have all the time in the world , sorry for posting here where due to my own merits i have become unwanted an an eyesore more or less .. I will be going back now to MY DOMAIN .. where i can have REAL fun .. later and peace to all..all the happiness in the world to you Artful , sincerely ..

 

[silkee_A]

The Me Me stage needs to go

Dream do you ever post on topic???? Your posts are always so theatrical and full of self servering talk, your life, etc etc. the Me Me stage is getting old fast and I have been here just a short time. I feel for those who have been here longer and had to endure this.

silkee_A

 

[silkee_A]

Re: Re: MissT,...

________________________
I wish for Artful to someday find someone who can satisy HIs 'fantasies' of the 'perfect sub'

I did my best which was all one could ask of me


I was NOt getting the attention i SEEKED , craved and very well deserved

I CHOSE to end the relationship ,

Do i seek love? hell yes do I deserve it ?

he and I BOTH deserved soo much better

I am happy now and truly sorry if anyone got hurt but I have my own life to worry abot

I need MY desires fulfilled also NOT just those of my Dom .

I need MY desires fulfilled also NOT just those of my Dom .

I rest my case.. the "I" word appears more than it should Dream
As a sub myself I just don't understand the reasons for such a post just as many of your other posts. They are not about BDSM they are about YOU. I also think you have been told enough times by many on here that they don't care about YOUR life, but you continue to bore us with it. Move on Dream and be with you new man. Don't bother bashing me I will just continue to ignore your posts that are unrelated to anything about YOU. I dont know you and don't wish to either. I am very new to this board and if I already have that impression of you, I can only imagine what others think..take a rest Dream and move on so you can get all your "I" statements fulfilled!!

silkee_A

 

[MissTaken]

Dammit, my pc froze...

After a lengthy and well written post! *groan*

Hopefully, I can hit on all the points.

Contrary to silkee's view, I am pleased with ~Dream's ~ post.

Yes, there have been times over and again, where Dream's posting concerning her relationship and not staying on topic was an issue. This was a difficult issue for her as well as the rest of the posters.

Yes, Dream, not only did you stay on topic, you posted about BDSM, what you have learned, what you want and where you would like to go. I commend you for a) openess and respect for artful, b) for taking the chance of posting such a post.

I am happy to hear that you, like me, have learned that even relationships that don't end well are blessings. We learn and grow from every experience we have, including love relationships that reach a dead end. Yes, artful is correct, many times novice subs have romantic notions about submission and don't know what they want or how to get it. Finding out that the person you think can meet your needs, can't is disheartening, but helps us to know what we do want.

Dream, when your wants and needs compliments a partners wants and needs, you will find happiness. I wish that for you.

Also, thank you for the respect you are showing artful. He is deserving of that respect, as are you. I hated watching the relatinship end, knowing the hurt that is involved.

Many hugs to both of you.

 

[MissTaken]

It is my hope that ~Dream~ will not find herself drawn into yet another personalized flame war concerning her posting.

There are times when many of us use "I" and post about ourselves. When we are posting on topic, respectfully and openly, these posts often help many of us to grow.

I am not a big defender of anyone, here on the board, but I am quick to recognize good things in posters. Dream's post shows me growth and maturity that has been lacking.

However, that is just my opinion.

Now, I will stop using "I" and will progress back on topic!



Hugs to LIW for this thread.
You have given many of us pause for thought.

 

[silkee_A]

No disrespect meant to you or anyone else here Miss Taken just a opinion from someone who has not been here a long time. Sometimes outsiders can see things more clearly when they have not been here to observe all the trials and tribulations of someone's relatinship. I surely did not mean to offend anyone. I am not a trouble maker and will make no more posts regarding Dream nor anyone else on this board. It seems when a "newer" poster says anything they are met with comments that are hanging on the fencec teetering to fall onto the negaive side of things, no matter what a persons view is it is not right for some reason. I just hope that I can land on the right side of the fence sometimes That's okay I am an adult and will conduct myself as such.

respetively, silkee_A

 

[silkee_A]

hehe Miss Taken, our posts are being submitted close to the same time, you are just typing faster than I... <s>

 

[MissTaken]

Oh, silkee!

No worries!

A bazillion posts doesn't mean I am write!

I take no offense and would encourage you to express yourself freely. *warm smiles* Don't censor yourself on my account. Truly.

I certainly meant no offense in your direction.

 

[silkee_A]

Thank you Miss Taken...nice to meet you by the way. I have read many of your posts.. I have learned from them just as I have from many of the experienced posters here. I truly do enjoy this forum.
Thanks to you all!

 

[MissTaken]

Ha!

And if my phone hadn't jingled, you wouldn't have beaten me to this post!



Nice to meet you, as well. Opinions are cool. If we all shared the same opinions, discussions would be flat.

As we all have different experiences and strong personalities, it keeps things lively around here, as well as informative.

Keep on posting!

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Dammit, my pc froze...

After a lengthy and well written post! *groan*

Hopefully, I can hit on all the points.

Contrary to silkee's view, I am pleased with ~Dream's ~ post.

Yes, there have been times over and again, where Dream's posting concerning her relationship and not staying on topic was an issue. This was a difficult issue for her as well as the rest of the posters.

Yes, Dream, not only did you stay on topic, you posted about BDSM, what you have learned, what you want and where you would like to go. I commend you for a) openess and respect for artful, b) for taking the chance of posting such a post.

I am happy to hear that you, like me, have learned that even relationships that don't end well are blessings. We learn and grow from every experience we have, including love relationships that reach a dead end. Yes, artful is correct, many times novice subs have romantic notions about submission and don't know what they want or how to get it. Finding out that the person you think can meet your needs, can't is disheartening, but helps us to know what we do want.

Dream, when your wants and needs compliments a partners wants and needs, you will find happiness. I wish that for you.

Also, thank you for the respect you are showing artful. He is deserving of that respect, as are you. I hated watching the relatinship end, knowing the hurt that is involved.

Many hugs to both of you.

____________________

as always Miss T ...I would like to say thank-you for your understanding and compassion and yes being a 'novice sub' I do have alot to learn this is true , ppl may judge me and judge me harshly or not ,that shall be their right and they are as always entitled to their opinions, however until one has walked in my shoes for but 1 day I hope they will be kind enough to not judge so harshly .. I have finally found and met someone who like me is NOT perfect but who has a heart of gold and is in everyway a great match for me tyvm for your caring Miss T and as always I respect your judgement .. much happiness to you ..

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: MissT,...

________________________
I wish for Artful to someday find someone who can satisy HIs 'fantasies' of the 'perfect sub'

I did my best which was all one could ask of me


I was NOt getting the attention i SEEKED , craved and very well deserved

I CHOSE to end the relationship ,

Do i seek love? hell yes do I deserve it ?

he and I BOTH deserved soo much better

I am happy now and truly sorry if anyone got hurt but I have my own life to worry abot

I need MY desires fulfilled also NOT just those of my Dom .

I need MY desires fulfilled also NOT just those of my Dom .

I rest my case.. the "I" word appears more than it should Dream
As a sub myself I just don't understand the reasons for such a post just as many of your other posts. They are not about BDSM they are about YOU. I also think you have been told enough times by many on here that they don't care about YOUR life, but you continue to bore us with it. Move on Dream and be with you new man. Don't bother bashing me I will just continue to ignore your posts that are unrelated to anything about YOU. I dont know you and don't wish to either. I am very new to this board and if I already have that impression of you, I can only imagine what others think..take a rest Dream and move on so you can get all your "I" statements fulfilled!!

silkee_A

____________________

well well lol hmmm nice post?? in case I should bother and I really should not but cant resist , the use of"I" statements in my posts goes only to show that I DO know what I want , I am ijn other words learning to be positively 'assertive' and NOT allow myself to be manipulated anymore .. I'm sure some do consider that qite threatening , sorry about that as it's NOT my intention at all ,however subbies do HAVE rights and needs also and I met my Master's never will he tell you I did not .. so now again , I say unto you I have went where My needs also will and ARE being met ,, BDSM is NOT a one-way street .. WELL Not the way Dream views it anyways JMHO ty for your eye-opening post

 

[lark sparrow]

I simply hope you enjoy your new life and remain in the present. Allowing Art to post without turning each of his posts into something about your past relationship... as knows many here have missed his IMHO and would like to hear it without a bunch of background noise. Enjoy what you have now and live the lessons you have learned. As you said, you deserve it, and so does Art.

 

[zipman]

Re: Dammit, my pc froze...

After a lengthy and well written post! *groan*

Hopefully, I can hit on all the points.

Contrary to silkee's view, I am pleased with ~Dream's ~ post.

Yes, there have been times over and again, where Dream's posting concerning her relationship and not staying on topic was an issue. This was a difficult issue for her as well as the rest of the posters.

Yes, Dream, not only did you stay on topic, you posted about BDSM, what you have learned, what you want and where you would like to go. I commend you for a) openess and respect for artful, b) for taking the chance of posting such a post.

I am happy to hear that you, like me, have learned that even relationships that don't end well are blessings. We learn and grow from every experience we have, including love relationships that reach a dead end. Yes, artful is correct, many times novice subs have romantic notions about submission and don't know what they want or how to get it. Finding out that the person you think can meet your needs, can't is disheartening, but helps us to know what we do want.

Dream, when your wants and needs compliments a partners wants and needs, you will find happiness. I wish that for you.

Also, thank you for the respect you are showing artful. He is deserving of that respect, as are you. I hated watching the relatinship end, knowing the hurt that is involved.

Many hugs to both of you.

MissT,

I couldn't disagree with you more about Dream's posts on this thread.

I see the same old Dream, blaming Artful for problems, disclosing information that is inappropriate, Going on and on about her own needs and desire for attention and not even mentioning anything about submission. She did not address the topic of the thread )Real vs. Wannabe) but rather, used her posts for purely self-promotional reasons.

I think Silkee_A saw it quite clearly and articulated it well.

To sum up, I don't think she stayed on topic, I don't think she treated Artful with respect and I find it amusing that she constantly refers to any Dom that she disagrees with as a "wannabe" but then can't even address the topic on a thread about them.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you Zip. I too, saw the old Dream in her posts. Her words, especially those directed at Art, here and on another thread, were very unkind.

 

[MissTaken]

Well, zip.

I love agreeing to disagree with you.

I must add, that since that initial post today, old habits are shining through.

*sigh*


All things being relative to what we are used to seeing, I was pleasantly surprised to find this, first post.

It seems, ~Dream~ didn't follow my subtle advice, but oh well.

My thinking was that as artful had turned the discussion to hit on the topic of novice subs and realistic expectations, that Dream posted concerning her unmet expectations was on topic.

 

[MissTaken]

Thank you Zip. I too, saw the old Dream in her posts. Her words, especially those directed at Art, here and on another thread, were very unkind.

Perhaps I am eternally cursed to look for the best in people and overlook the not so good stuff?


That may explain some of the experiences I have had with pretenders.

(Slippery move back on topic!)

 

[A Desert Rose]

Perhaps I am eternally cursed to look for the best in people and overlook the not so good stuff?


That may explain some of the experiences I have had with pretenders.

(Slippery move back on topic!)

I try to look for the best too, MissT. But for me, I only need be burned once or twice before I finally figure it out. That does not mean that I have not been burned by many, I have. But it does mean I won't go back for more.

It also means that I won't be catty on the boards, to anyone. And I see that behavior loud and clear with some here.

 

[zipman]

Well, zip.

I love agreeing to disagree with you.

I must add, that since that initial post today, old habits are shining through.

*sigh*


All things being relative to what we are used to seeing, I was pleasantly surprised to find this, first post.

It seems, ~Dream~ didn't follow my subtle advice, but oh well.

My thinking was that as artful had turned the discussion to hit on the topic of novice subs and realistic expectations, that Dream posted concerning her unmet expectations was on topic.

Personally, I feel that Dream is about the only "wannabe" or pretender that I have seen here. I think she still does not understand the core of BDSM is about power exchange, and that a sub's main focus should be pleasing her master.

Dream has used this first post to start the blaming of Artful and, as we all know, Artful will not post back and reply to it do to his own personal ideals.

The difference is that Artful was discussing dynamics in a general way and Dream turned that into an opportunity to "get a few shots in" and blame him.


Sorry MissT, but I'm not buying any kind of change in her. I think a lot of us called her on her crap a while ago, and she has not done one thing to change the way I (and many others) perceive her.

 

[cellis]

I do not want to step on any toes or hurt anyone's feelings. I use the "I" word alot to explain about my relationship to Himself and what I know and what I have learned about BDSM.

I have found that the use of "I" keeps the focus on me and my knowledge about my own D/s relationship.

Unfortunately, I do not see this happening with Dream's posts. Most of the time, MissT, I find that you are right on the money with your insights and observations.... however that is not the case this time.

I do not see a change in anything about Dream... it is apparent that change should not even be an expectation where she is concerned.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Radar

Personally, I feel that Dream is about the only "wannabe" or pretender that I have seen here. I think she still does not understand the core of BDSM is about power exchange, and that a sub's main focus should be pleasing her master.

Dream has used this first post to start the blaming of Artful and, as we all know, Artful will not post back and reply to it do to his own personal ideals.

The difference is that Artful was discussing dynamics in a general way and Dream turned that into an opportunity to "get a few shots in" and blame him.


Sorry MissT, but I'm not buying any kind of change in her. I think a lot of us called her on her crap a while ago, and she has not done one thing to change the way I (and many others) perceive her.

I am so glad that I have "that person" on ignore. I have long since bored of her games.

In other words, she is well below My radar, she just flies too low. I'll leave her to a higher power who will sort her out soon enough.

Eb

 

[SexyChele]

I have read this thread and a couple of others, and I will admit that a slight "highjack" is going to occur.

Miss T, you are far too generous. But that is a good thing - we need people like you!

But, I see ~Dream~'s posts as being nothing more than taking potshots at Artful, trotting out things better left in private, and being very disrepectful. It's all about the drama once again. Funny, don't you think, before Artful returned, how ~Dream~ kept telling us all how much she and Artful mutually agreed to the breakup? That they both wished the best for each other? That she held nothing against him? Then, as soon as he begins posting, she trots along behind him, writing innuendos about how miserable she really was and only realized it now. And she talks about some of us trolling her? *shakes head*

~Dream~ started on this board with questions and they were valid and understandable. She also received a lot of good, heart-felt advice on what to do and where to go to learn more. All of it she choose to ignore. She wanted to see Artful in person, she wanted a collar, she wanted forever and ever. All within 6 months or less. And when folks here said she was moving way too fast, we were accused of being "jealous" and not understanding how deep their love was. Bullsh*t.

Less than 2 weeks after breaking up with Artful, she meets a man who truly fulfills her. This is after being through at least 6 months of "lies" and "manipulations". (her words) Now, I know that if I had been lied to and manipulated, I'd be taking a break and truly getting to know some one very, very, very well before jumping in with both feet and eyes shut. This Dracoa has stated on another thread that he is not into BDSM. ~Dream~ claims that is what she wants. She jumped into this relationship in less than a month.

Anyone else seeing two trains colliding head on, or is it just me?

If ~Dream~ truly wants to learn about BDSM, then there are only two ways that I know of to do so. Communicate honestly and openly with people actively involved and who have been involved for quite some time, and get some recommended books and do some studying.

I would also like to state that I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with a couple engaging in kinky play. A spanking, using toys, playing "Master/slave", and generally having fun in the bedroom is absolutely fine. However, playing at BDSM fantasies and calling it BDSM is hurtful to oneself and others. I think this is the lesson ~Dream~ needs to learn - and unfortunately will keep doing so the hard way.

Okay...."highjack" over....

 

[Pure]

HI Lioness,

So many good points made by Zip and Miss T and others.
The "real" question gets confused with evaluations and recommendations:
Consider, would you want "real" Limburger cheese, or a milder substitute; do you want a 'real' parachute experience from a plane, or less 'real' one from a tower? In each case, it's up to you, the consumer, which to prefer.

I agree with MsT that the issue is basically 'kink' versus some activites involving power transfer. If B (f) gets off on it, and A whips her to please her, or because he's paid, it's a 'kink' situation. Getting off on being whipped is not different in kind from getting off on partner wearing nylons. On the other hand,

If the setup--as someone said, for 5 minutes or 5 hrs--really involves A using power over B, that's 'real' bdsm. This means A is calling the shots, though s/he has B's consent. Whether, and to what degree, 'real' is right for you, is another question.

As to the later question:

I have my own dichotomy that I'd someday like to figure out, and this is where my real interest lies. While I thoroughly enjoy a strong man in and out of the bedroom, the very things which make me want to submit to him in the bedroom can be a source of great irritation and hurt to me in other aspects of the relationship. How do you deal with it, that's what I'd like to know--without going crazy with frustration or just slipping away? I think just having to ask that question makes me a not-very submissive person.

You've gotten some fine answers about two ends of the spectrum: everything in the bedroom only (split scenario); and a 'power' based total relationship(total scenario). Some *have* managed the first alternative, with a suitable other who makes the same split: playful and egalitarian outside the bedroom and strictly dominant inside.

What's been mentioned a little that I would emphasize is that being 'dominant' is not being obnoxious or impolite. Is it not these things that 'irritate' you? things like selfishly disregarding your feelings and views?

That is not bdsm 'dominance' but macho posturing. Even in the bedroom, under the 'split' scenario, the dom is not necessarily being impolite or obnoxious. Directions don't need to be given while strutting and preening and being 'cock of the walk'. So it's important to go by your feelings of being disrespected or disregarded, in selecting a 'real' dom--IF in fact that's what you 'really' want.

Best,

 

[Ebonyfire]

That is not bdsm 'dominance' but macho posturing. Even in the bedroom, under the 'split' scenario, the dom is not necessarily being impolite or obnoxious. Directions don't need to be given while strutting and preening and being 'cock of the walk'. So it's important to go by your feelings of being disrespected or disregarded, in selecting a 'real' dom--IF in fact that's what you 'really' want.Best,

I am just curous, just who was this paragraph directed toward?

Cause quite frankly I am confused. The information contained therein has been stated ad nauseum, to no effect. You are preaching to the choir.

Remember, it is usually one person's word against another here. Usually in the context of "he disrespected me", "he disregarded me" (I rarely if ever see the culprit as "her"). So we hear one side of the story, again and again.

Is there truth-telling going on? Well, on deciding on whether there is truth being told, I like to consider the source.

Ebony