Serious Discussion: The Mental Health of Submissives

[switchbitch]

No, because you're a troll who felt the need to be the first (and only) person so far disrespectful in this thread.

Shoo fly, don't bother me.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that it is trolling to ask you where your information and opinions are coming from. When you make sweeping statements about what you believe about the BDSM community or submissives it is hard not to take offence when you do not offer details on what makes you think these things.
You may call me a troll if you wish but I too would like to know what makes you believe in the mental dysfunction of submissives.
No matter who you are, no matter what topic you are discussing, when you show a specific bias there has to be a reason for it and if you wish to have an open and reasonable discussion then surely it is only reasonable to find out what has initiated that bias.
It sounds as though you have had some unfortunate experiences within the BDSM context, but without more understanding of your experience how can we as a community respond specifically to your questions.
And honestly for those of us who have been involved in the community for a very long time many of us have often had to deal with uninformed and uneducated assumptions being made about the BDSM dynamic, without understanding your experience it is all too easy to simply assume you are one of them.
For the sake of clarity in understanding please elaborate on the specific experiencesthat have led you to this opinion .

 

[Keroin]

You're insightful as always, Keroin.

Your case of maple syrup is in the mail.

Doesn’t that lead to a ‘better’ relationship (in terms of communication) almost automatically?

Mmmm, not necessarily. There's communication and communication. I'd say more but I have to eat toast and have a shower now.

I think that we also have to take into account the fact that participation in an online forum or participation in a local "scene" is a self-selecting mechanism. It could be the case, for example, that people who have some sort of neurosis or other "issue" find it satisfying to commune with others from the comfort of a chosen environment. It could equally be that many people who enjoy fully healthy lives and relationships choose to stay to themselves and avoid bdsm communities, online or otherwise. I don't know this and I don't mean to suggest that it's really the case, but the OP is basing his conclusions on a very limited sample size and it's not at all a truly random sample. Errors of inference are inevitable from small and irregular samples.

Oh, absolutely. I think the online component is very valid here. This is a very safe environment in many regards. I was actually going to note that but the kettle was boiling.

 

[Kojote]

Your case of maple syrup is in the mail.

Let me answer this (undoubtedly meaningful) one with a rather german phrase:
Häh???
(I'm sure you'll understand without translation what I try to say )

Mmmm, not necessarily. There's communication and communication. I'd say more but I have to eat toast and have a shower now.

Looking forward to whatever you will have to say once your hunger is satiated and the remains are cleaned of.

But since I think I can at least foreshadow some of it I’d like to add:
At least there is communication compared to almost no exchange in some conversations between couples I personally witnessed.
Maybe it doesn’t always work out in the end, but the odds are far better for understanding to take place, aren’t they?

 

[KoPilot]

In some ways I do wonder if BDSM enables people to not face their shit and be grown men an women; if the theoretical BS of this whole "lifestyle" gives people an excuse to not be responsible for their lives.

I suspected that before I identified as kinky, and now I suspect that even more. :T

To me, that is the most dangerous part. It's a kind of feel-good nihilism that gives someone permission to just not give a shit about certain things (or anything, for that matter), and depending on what those things are, I think that kind of carelessness about one's life, priorities, identity, beliefs, etc., can be more damaging than they might realize.

(I use words like "think", "can", and "might" because there are always exceptions to everything.)

 

[Keroin]

Let me answer this (undoubtedly meaningful) one with a rather german phrase:
Häh???
(I'm sure you'll understand without translation what I try to say )

Me = Canadian, hence the gift of maple syrup in exchange for flattery.

At least there is communication compared to almost no exchange in some conversations between couples I personally witnessed.
Maybe it doesn’t always work out in the end, but the odds are far better for understanding to take place, aren’t they?

I'm willing to bet that you will find more than one person who has been lied to and/or cheated on by their very communicative BDSM partner. I'm also willing to bet that you will find people who communicate frequently with their partner and still feel as if the other person doesn't "get" them, that their conversations about BDSM could be about grocery shopping or yard maintenance for all the relevance they have to the deeper workings of the relationship.

I don't feel the odds are any better for the success of a BDSM relationship than they are for a mainstream relationship.

To me, that is the most dangerous part. It's a kind of feel-good nihilism that gives someone permission to just not give a shit about certain things (or anything, for that matter), and depending on what those things are, I think that kind of carelessness about one's life, priorities, identity, beliefs, etc., can be more damaging than they might realize.

Also, toss in the fact that BDSM is a rush. There are definite addictive qualities to a lot of what we do, which can impair judgment. If you're someone looking to escape or avoid dealing with some unpleasant realities, that feel-good rush can help achieve that goal.

 

[KoPilot]

Also, toss in the fact that BDSM is a rush. There are definite addictive qualities to a lot of what we do, which can impair judgment. If you're someone looking to escape or avoid dealing with some unpleasant realities, that feel-good rush can help achieve that goal.

In conjunction with your other thread about obstacles and challenges, it's definitely healthy to escape sometimes (is that common sense yet? ), but when that's all your existence becomes... then what?

 

[CutieMouse]

Because I'm dealing with that personally.

Not to be rude, but the fact that you personally happen to choose partners who are less than emotionally/mentally healthy does not correlate to submissives in the BDSM community as a whole being automatically more prone to such things. I've made a few shitty relationship choices in my life. I eventually noticed the pattern and worked on myself until I could make healthier relationship choices.

I agree the happiness is important, but I don't understand how a "submissive" cannot be subordinate. In what sense?

The use of the word "subordinate" implies a submissive is somehow beneath, lower than, or inferior to the dominant. If a dominant approaches me with that attitude, I will politely refuse to even consider a friendship, much less a relationship. It goes back to the standards I was speaking of earlier - why on earth would I bother being intimate with a guy who thinks so little of me? If I allowed someone to treat me like a lesser person instead of an equal (but polar opposite) - wouldn't it increase the odds of my thinking of myself as lesser, as well?

Mostly yes, because the term "healthy" seems to always mean "egalatarian" or something of the sort. I am having a hard time deciding what everyone here means by "healthy" and finding it hard to adapt it to DS stuff.

Healthy by my definition means the people involved are happier more often than they are miserable, communication is profitable and productive (both ways), each cares about the emotional/mental/physical well being of the other, and when problems arise they are dealt with in a mature and calm manner.

I'm confused as to why a D/s relationship's "health" would be defined any differently than a non-D/s relationship. Relationships are relationships.

You seem to have quite a good relationship of a DS type, though.

I'm actually not technically in a relationship at the moment... for every unstable single submissive out there, there is just as unstable a single dominant.

[/QUOTE]

 

[DVS]

This is a serious discussion. I am not trying to insult, offend, or antagonize any member here or anyone a member might know. In fact, I am writing this in a sense to get some help and perspective. I am beginning to suspect that this sort of lifestyle is too destructive to engage in, and I should like some insight that might help me avoid this conclusion, even though I am not likely to do anything against it even if I do think it is destructive.

With that caveat made, let me begin:

Are a significant portion of submissives mentally unhealthy?

I ask this question because I have come upon many, many submissives, both personally (friendships, relationships) and impersonally (forums, chats) that admit to behaviour that is shockingly self-destructive. Whether this means physical harm, thoughts/attempts/successes of suicide, or complete emotional instability and self hatred, I have found a consistent trend that the majority of subs have something profoundly wrong with them. In fact, it seems that most subs are one, or at least a few, steps away from falling off the deep end.

I don't know much in the way of male subs, as my experience is primarily with female subs personally. But from what I can tell from male subs, they do not appear very healthy, either.

If this is true, what might be done about it? Is there a way to mitigate the bad effects, while retaining the submissiveness? Or is it just part and parcel of the psychological makeup that would make someone seek pain, humiliation, and fear as a form of pleasure? Is there a way for a person to not be horribly sad and ruined inside, and yet still be submissive? I am seriously concerned, not just for those I know, but those in general. Of course, mostly for those I know - as those I am dealing with personally and are most valuable to me.

Also, is it possible that doms are also sick? I realize, as a sadist, that I might simply be part of the mentally unhealthy that hurt others, rather than myself.

What can be done? Am I quite off the mark?

Are you a doctor, or do you just play on on this forum? No offense, but I just had to say that. I don't consider myself sick, nor do I consider anyone I play with to be sick. Personally, I don't try to understand things that others smarter than I am can't come together on.

A lot of the things we find sexual are trapped deeply inside our heads. I experienced my first dominant feelings when I was still in grade school. So, who really knows when and why some people enjoy experiencing pain or inflicting pain on others?

Yes, I know some people might have mental issues and for whatever reason, they find their medication in BDSM activities. But there are just as many with mental issues that don't. Only the ones that seek something adverse to society's norms are considered to be sick.

I don't try to understand what happens in the human mind. We are only beginning to understand how the brain works. The mind is still far beyond understanding. Smart people go to school for long lengths of time to become head doctors and no two see things the same, once they begin their practice. Some of them go to school just to understand their own abnormal tendencies.

I see every human mind is unique. The mind is a product of our parent's genes, then affected by siblings, childhood friends, neighborhood atmosphere, early social connections, schools, movies, TV and most everything else.

There is a point in life when sexual thoughts are decided. Will we be shy, extroverted, hetero, gay, dominant, submissive or God for bid...vanilla? What decides this and when? Hell if I know. I do think a lot of it is decided early in life, but that doesn't mean we will understand it that soon or even be aware of it. Some don't discover it until their so called "normal" life is no longer fulfilling.

I do agree that some people will seek strange forms of comfort. But, no matter how many do, there are at least as many who don't. Then, you have to deal with those who consider strange the same as you do. Then, how many have to feel the same as you before you can call your group normal?

And then there's the other point of view, where they consider themselves normal and you are the strange one. So who's correct? Sometimes it comes down to what the meaning of the word "is" is, or something like that.

 

[S_tempest]

I've got to say that this thread is pretty awesome no matter the OP's intent. Enough so that I had to un-lurk (or would that be de-lurk?).

In some ways I think it also depends on the context we are talking about as well. I could see the argument that the online communities might attract more people of either PYL that are less than 'stable' or have issues.

After all there are no physical consequences, or immediate feedback, when interacting online. Not to diminish the mental aspect but that is a powerful limiting mechanism.

Also, I could see the 'community' possibly adding to the 'problem'. And this isn't a slight or meant to offend any one just a rumination.

Any community eventually evolves their own standards and such and there is just as much pressure to conform to those standards in the BDSM community as any other. Normally I think we probably cope fairly well to doing that but in this case (along with some others perhaps) the experience is so very personal and tastes, expectations, limits, whatnot are so individual that trying to fit in could cause some issues.

*thinks* Not the post I intended but close enough for now. To those posting before I did enjoy your exchanges very much, thank y'all.

 

[Chiara_searches]

There are too many valid points made here already to quote them all. Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

I, like others responding here, find that I feel more mentally healthy after accepting my submissive nature. In another thread, I likened it to a wheel with a cog that just got adjusted properly. Something aligned. The wobble feels like it is gone.

I identify as a feminist; I'm a professional; I feel confident about my professional abilities; I feel comfortable with many aspects of my personal relationships. And I identify, now, as submissive. I feel better now than I have in probably 20 years.

Do I have mental quirks from challenges in life? Yes. But don't we all? Am I "broken" because I identify as submissive? Hell, no. I'm healthier for having taken a long hard look at my life and identified what wasn't working.

I'll also honestly admit this adjustment is fairly new to me. But I anticipate continuing self-evaluation and communication with one important person to evaluate if this remains a healthy path for me.

I'll share some words from a dear friend, J.C. When I was still trying to form a better understanding of myself, and while trying to formulate the right language to apply to my life, he explained his view of these types of relationships. He speaks in terms of "healthy equal/non-equivalent relationships." This, in my world, is exactly what I expect my relationship to be. My entire true nature has to be accepted; if a guy is offended that I'm a feminist or smart or detail oriented or that I like chai lattes, he's not worth knowing I'm submissive. If he can't accept me on an equal basis as a person, he's never going to know how much a certain kind of non-equivalence turns me on. He has to be on similar moral foot ground and belief systems to know the full details of my true nature. I have to like, admire and enjoy him as a person in order to submit to him. To me, all these things are substantially more healthy than how I was in the end of my marriage and probably for the entire length of my marriage.

It takes time in life to find quality. Sometimes quality may actually drop into your lap after a long, hard climb to understanding. But you have to have some personal understanding to recognize quality. Perhaps the op is still on his search for quality things in life.

 

[satindesire]

Almost everyone has mental health issues.

The anonymity, whether total or partial, of teh interbone offers a safety net, a place where it's okay to admit mental health issues.

Just because more people admit to mental health issues on the net doesn't mean the net attracts crazy people.

That's like walking into an AA meeting thinking "Geeze, there sure are a lot of alcoholics in these clubs."

 

[S_tempest]

Just because more people admit to mental health issues on the net doesn't mean the net attracts crazy people.

That wasn't what I was implying, or at least faulting the net specifically. I posit that many people's first experience with either the concept of BDSM or exposure to it probably stems from the net. Now this could be a 'quality' experience or not (quality being highly subjective). The percieved anonymitity of net interactions don't tend to bring out our better angels.

Can't remember the philosopher that came up with the invisible man bit off the top of my head.

But if the net is where the majority of people gain their firsts tastes of BDSM, and the 'invisible man' theory is correct, and there is no physical feedback given during an experience, I say that, while not attracting crazy people, it can allow crazy people to express and validate their 'crazy' take.

If that makes any sense at all? Still tossing it around in my head, but I can say that I don't view the net as either either good nor bad in this instance, just a thing which we use to our own purposes.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not a submissive, but I am a bottom for many activities-- painplay, sexplay.

I'm sure that some of my activities would look very unhealthy to a bystander, but that's why I keep them channeled into a specific venue.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Something I learned recently, made me stop and think.

I was in a training session, and we were discussing the major personality traits that were underliers for anxiety disorders. It wasn't to say that all people who had these traits would develop anxiety, but that they were common to those with anxiety.

And 3 in particular struck me, because I could see them in myself, but with a few minor twists, I could see them in my submissive nature too.

* A high need for control
* A high need for approval
* Perfectionism

Which leads me back to self awareness and acceptance. Once you know how your brain works, and what you need to thrive, what's wrong with finding a relationship structure that works for you?

I could go looking for a vanilla relationship, and then try and deal with these needs not being met, and the anxiety attached, or I can find a D/s relationship that meets those needs and others, and have a happy, fulfilling life.

I know what I would choose.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

Everything about the psychology in power play is delicious and fascinating... so thank you for this thread!

First, I feel I need to say that when it comes to "unhealthy" relationships, I am a firm believer that if you don't like yourself (regardless of the experience, mental health issues, or traumas that caused it), then there is no way you will ever believe any one else likes you either. Self loathing is the most lethal poison in loving relationships. It is YOUR responsibility to yourself the other person you care about to arrive healthy and whole, and you of course should expect the same from them. For me personally, someone who has surrendered to the label of broken, and thusly designed their life around their career of being a victim couldn't be more frustrating, heartbreaking, and a turnoff.

That said...my thought bubbles thoughts after reading this thread...

Re Trauma and mental dis-ease.... I think it is fair to say that most traumatic experiences are laced with fear and/or pain of some physical or emotional kind, all of which strip us naked to the animals that we actually are. The chemical, hormonal, and simply primal response turning on to do whatever is necessary to survive. It is amazing what a person is capable of when pushed, and the opportunity to see this side of yourself can sometimes be limited to those moments. That said, I find that humans that have walked through or just survived some kind of trauma are unfortunately forced to face and experience this very primal, true, and raw parts of themselves. The very raw and naked process of actually healing and overcoming trauma and things like emotional dis-ease is one of very deep personal exploration and reflection... and thusly it is no surprise to me that in recovery they would uncover all sorts of pieces of themselves that were probably always lurking about.

Or.... maybe it is just that in places like this, there are many that are seeking, discovering and defining them selves that can be a cacophony of its very own that on the surface seems unhealthy, but just be disorganized and messy and therefor haphazardly labeled to make it more comfortable?

Surrendering control is quite different than surrendering responsibility. If you are the one mentally ill or wounded, you are the ONE responsible for seeking treatment and healing it. Period.

I think I am also starting to understand that these types of relationships, that thrive only on the deepest connections of trust, are much more intimate than many have ever experienced, so for some it might be the first place in their lives of surrendered sanctuary and thusly becomes a place of general airing out and healing as well? Maybe that is the grey area many find themselves in?

I don't think there can be much of anything that rejects primal instincts more than stripping naked, confessing your softest underbelly, kneeling down, and baring your neck in surrender, which makes it very human... but the WHY you do it is definitely tell tale of your life's experience up to that moment I would think and it makes sense to understand that before you would know if the relationship is "healthy" or simply a good fit for either of you.


Thanks again to all of you for your thoughts here... Hugs to you all!

 

[where]

at the risk of being labelled a troll, I have to also ask, what's your evidence? and as someone smarter than me said, "the plural of anecdote isn't data". And even supposing there is some research out there, there are also issues about how you define mental health.

For example, most people in society would think that making a woman sleep naked on the floor and eat out of a bowl is seriously fucked up. Or getting sexual pleasure from being pissed on, all kinds of stuff that society considers aberrant and abhorrant.

Then consider how society has sought to control human behaviour by labelling it as deviant and that people have been conveniently labelled as mentally ill simply for going against the norm.

 

[Babyslave]

Deleted

 

[mutato]

Eloquently put. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But, even here, in this community, there are still judgments made, recriminations felt, and opinions not always wanting to be questioned.

Absolutely.

Especially here, in fact.

Anyone who thinks that BDSM is some sort of magical rainbow community full of Hallmark moments is going to end up very saddened and shocked.

That has nothing to do with mental health, by the way. It's simply that so very many practices and preferences have been herded together under the single label.

 

[Kojote]

Absolutely.

Especially here, in fact.

Anyone who thinks that BDSM is some sort of magical rainbow community full of Hallmark moments is going to end up very saddened and shocked.

That has nothing to do with mental health, by the way. It's simply that so very many practices and preferences have been herded together under the single label.

You mean there's no rainbow hidden in here?
Damn!
I feel saddened now. And actually a little bit shocked, too ...

 

[marieR19]

... I have a rainbow on my shirt. And a rainbow-pride sticker on my purse. Does that count?

It seems to me that the OP has specific thoughts about mental illness and about bdsm, and nothing we say against that will make much of a difference. I *work* in the mental health field, and can say with absolute certainty that there is no hard proof that bdsmers as a whole are more mentally ill then any other group. But that isn't going to make any difference to someone set in their own opinions like the OP.

 

[Kojote]

... I have a rainbow on my shirt. And a rainbow-pride sticker on my purse. Does that count?

Really saves my day. Thx!

It seems to me that the OP has specific thoughts about mental illness and about bdsm, and nothing we say against that will make much of a difference. I *work* in the mental health field, and can say with absolute certainty that there is no hard proof that bdsmers as a whole are more mentally ill then any other group. But that isn't going to make any difference to someone set in their own opinions like the OP.

In case of the OP there seemed to be at least a little hope for him actually listening to the things said in here.

 

[JamieJ424]

This!

Absolutely.

Especially here, in fact.

Anyone who thinks that BDSM is some sort of magical rainbow community full of Hallmark moments is going to end up very saddened and shocked.

That has nothing to do with mental health, by the way. It's simply that so very many practices and preferences have been herded together under the single label.