So has anyone ever really thought of the reason why...

[T.H. Oughts]

All that being said....do whatever the hell you want. What's 'normal' and what's 'ok' is all subjective and entirely up to you, something most Christians would do well to remember.

I'll second that.

Great conversation everyone.

 

[Vinceant]

That's coming from a believer in The Bible, too, mind you.

I don't even like to call myself "Christian" anymore; it's become so negative. Christianity today is some preverted interpretation of the Bible...it's kind of sad. There are so many things that aren't even mentioned in the Bible that they claim to be "biblical". ugh. I'll spare you all the rant... for now. hehehe

Night Jasmine... Why did you suffer through these readings? I suppose a lot of it is significant historically...but unless you are a Christian you should've just read a history book (which would have also probably painted the picture a tad clearer). It's not even that significant for modern "christianity" really; except when you want to figure out why certain rules still persisted, and what their origins were.

 

[none2_none2]

It all seems so obvious to me why some things are the way they are. I would think it is a hold over from days when in cultural/religious purposes humans wanted to make sure the focus stayed on survival. We don't need most of these ideas anymore, but they persist because people hang on to cultural/religious ideas for a very LONG time...

Instead of going back thousands of years in time, imagine a future time after some major crisis that affects the entire planet. (It doesn't matter whether it is caused by humankind or not, what is important that I'm bringing up a scenrio where there are few of us.) Lets say we are down to just a few 100 people on the entire planet...

Under such conditions the most important thing is food, water, shelter. We will probably reinforce among the group what foods to avoid (animals that maybe prone to parasites - such as pigs/boars) especially if we don't have the fires hot enough to kill the parasites. We will probably avoid drinking water if we don't think the source is clean. We will probably celebrate anything that is able to be fermented not because we love to drink, but it is one of the few things we can trust to be "clean"... We will probably come up with rules about sanitation:
1) Where you can do #1 & #2;
2) What women need to do to take care of their cycles;
3) etc...
These things may seem like obvious rules at the time, but they may get written down and become associated with religious reinforcement.

Past day-to-day survival, reproduction will be very important. To that effect, your most precious resource will be every female of reproductive age and those soon to enter that age. If there are any dangers: starvation, predetory large animals, waring factions, ... you have to protect them first.

Women most likely will be gathering food as opposed to hunting because it is kind of hard to hunt if you are pregnant, nursing, or caring for a young child. Plus the group cannot risk any women getting injured in the hunt. You need your men strong for the hunt, and to protect the women and children. They are more expendable than the women...

So if you have some people who are not interested in the opposite sex or the rigid gender roles, they don't easily fit in the roles needed in such a survival mode... If the guy isn't interested in the traditional male role of hunting, he isn't helping to bring the important protein needed for the diet. If a guy with gay desires finds another guy with kindred desires, then there are two guys in a small tribe who are not focusing on reproduction for the group.

(If you want an animal analogy, imagine a bull, ram, rooster that had no interest in breeding. He is more likely to be used for the next meal than to be kept around.)

On a releated issue to sexual preference/gender bending: To keep inbreeding from being a problem in such a small tribe, unpaired (bachelor) males are either encouraged to: a) "steal' an unrelated fertile female from other tribes or b) leave the tribe for another tribe.

a) Stealing Females:
If such a bachelor male has no interest in stealing a female he is deemed less essential to his own tribe. Likewise, if his heart isn't in fighting or killing other tribes' males who are bent on stealing females or resources, he is making his desirability in the group dwindle further.

b) Leaving for another tribe:
If the bachelor male leaves his tribe to join another one, the new tribe members won't have any interest in him if he doesn't possess good hunting/waring skills and if he has no interest in mating with at least one of the new tribe's females. Imagine you have reproductive-age females related to most of the males in your tribe. Obviously, your existing males cannot mate with them, so you welcome new males to your tribe. However, such a new male better be interested in these available females, otherwise there is little reason to want them to join your tribe.

All this is about a survival mode scenerio where rigid roles exist just to survive. The individual is part of the group (pack), and the identity of the group is more important than the rights of the individual. Individuality is secondary to the group survival.

I'm not saying it is right, it just becomes necessary under such circumstances. Sure we can all point to cultures that have exceptions such as Berdash or Shamans who could do some gender bending. However, keep in mind that those individuals were the exceptions. I doubt if there were small tribes where they would have allowed gender bending or same-sex sexual activities on any scale. Perhaps some tribes might have had very infrequent rituals that would have appeared homoerotic or gender bending to us, such infrequent rituals might have existed just to keep such behaviors from ever gaining a foothold in the culture/religion of the tribe. The most important focus/goal of the tribe must always be to keep the women protected and reproducing in order to insure humanity's survival.

The rules that we tend to see in regards to sexuality or gender are hard to change as we have had them for SO long. As an infertile, middle-aged, gay guy; I'm glad we aren't in survival mode. Nevertheless, I understand how it must have been in the beginning, and knowing human nature I understand that such change in thought is almost like going against instinct.

 

[Wolfman1982]

I have been raised in the protestant christian faith, but now adays I won´t call myself a christian . Since as one already said , what some people are calling Christianity today. is really a perverted version of Christianity, and that it has been for quite a few years.

But anyway, check some of my earlier postings, to see how I am with God nowadays.

 

[Vinceant]

Interesting theory, None2. Plausible, and could go hand in hand with mine.

Wolfman...I can't say I really blame you. Simply arguing about Biblical doctrine with my family is aggrivating, to say the least. Which is why I remain "in the closet" about quite a number of aspects in my life.

Also, before anyone freaks out on me or anything. I didn't come here to preach, or "spread the word" or anything like that; I don't like pestering people about it. I'm somewhat of a closet CD, and stumbled in here on a whim, seeking others who are similar. Saw this thread, decided to drop in a few opinions (was really worried about people freaking out or what have you). And no, CD'ing is not against Biblical doctrine.