Story Discussion Black Shanglan, Main Queue, 9/11/05

[BlackShanglan]

Colleen, I'm most grateful for your input - if perhaps feeling a bit like Aristotle writing with Socrates looking over his shoulder. You're the go-to for period fiction, and comments like that below show why:

4. I would say it could use with a little more of edwards thoughts. Once bitten is twice shy and he dosen't seem...apprehensive? Wary? jaded? enough to me. I get the connection, but to me, it seems a man already paying for one mistake will think long and hard about another. He should, in my opinion, at least consider the idea that tom is setting him up for another extortion routine. It was quite common back then and a few cases even made the papers that survive of men being in the dock for accusing someone of attempted buggery. Just going along with him would be enough to warrant suspicion and the Socisties for Morals wer actively employing agent's provocature throughout a good stretch of the time period. It might go easier on the flow if such a case had just been tried, as he could remember the artcle and at least wonder before he makes his decision.

This is an excellent point, and one that I think will work very well with my thoughts on fleshing Kerrington out just a little as a way to open up Edward - i.e., learning about Kerrington through Edward to also hear and see Edward. Kerrington's presence has to be a lot of what makes Edward decide to trust Tom in the first place - as you point out, a lone man is in a very different social and legal position, aside from threats of physical violence.

Hmmm makes me wonder about Edward's decision to offer him a job, though. You've given some very good reasons for him not to - the same reasons Kerrington is no doubt giving Edward in their squabble in the police station. I shall mull it a bit. One thing that I can probably lean on is something other characters will realize as the work moves on - the fact that their initial meeting is open, witnessed, and in a police station. That makes it difficult for people to argue that it was dodgy - but as you point out, that doesn't make Edward any less likely to suspect Tom. Do you think Kerrington's presence might be enough to allay from fears? It would seem less likely that Tom would be trying to play the badger game when there two of them there, although not impossible.

Hmm! Shall mull it. I think you've hit the main thing, which is that this is a chance to see more of Edward and flesh him out in a quick, strong fashion.

Many thanks for your time and thoughts -

Shanglan

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colleen, I'm most grateful for your input - if perhaps feeling a bit like Aristotle writing with Socrates looking over his shoulder. You're the go-to for period fiction, and comments like that below show why:



This is an excellent point, and one that I think will work very well with my thoughts on fleshing Kerrington out just a little as a way to open up Edward - i.e., learning about Kerrington through Edward to also hear and see Edward. Kerrington's presence has to be a lot of what makes Edward decide to trust Tom in the first place - as you point out, a lone man is in a very different social and legal position, aside from threats of physical violence.

Hmmm makes me wonder about Edward's decision to offer him a job, though. You've given some very good reasons for him not to - the same reasons Kerrington is no doubt giving Edward in their squabble in the police station. I shall mull it a bit. One thing that I can probably lean on is something other characters will realize as the work moves on - the fact that their initial meeting is open, witnessed, and in a police station. That makes it difficult for people to argue that it was dodgy - but as you point out, that doesn't make Edward any less likely to suspect Tom. Do you think Kerrington's presence might be enough to allay from fears? It would seem less likely that Tom would be trying to play the badger game when there two of them there, although not impossible.

Hmm! Shall mull it. I think you've hit the main thing, which is that this is a chance to see more of Edward and flesh him out in a quick, strong fashion.

Many thanks for your time and thoughts -

Shanglan

There is a lot that speaks against it being a setup, but you have to point those things out to the reader, in my humble opinion. It would be quite easy for Edward to suspect and then argue himself out of suspecting by the circumstance. It would also give you opportunity to flesh out kerrington, as the extortion game was often a two person deal with one claiming the "unnatural propositon" and the other "witnessing" it. This was especially true in socicety of Morals set ups.

I think there i splenty there to ally Edwards suspicions, but there is also opportunity for you to build both his and kerrington's characters as he works through those suspicions.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think there i splenty there to ally Edwards suspicions, but there is also opportunity for you to build both his and kerrington's characters as he works through those suspicions.

*nods* My thoughts too. I think Edward's perception of Kennington should do good things for fleshing out Edward; it also gives me the chance to play with Kennington later if I like.

Shanglan

 

[CharleyH]

Apologies for not seeing this, Shanglan. I can't comment this evening but will first thing tommorrow. It has been a while since I have been here. I don't want the author in the que to lose steam either, so I will attempt to catch up.

PS. Without reading the thread before I comment, are there any specific answers or concerns you have in regards to posting the piece initially, or that you feel have been spurred by other posters since? I dont want to repeat what others say, so if you have specific concerns before I read, they would be helpful to both of us probably.

 

[BlackShanglan]

PS. Without reading the thread before I comment, are there any specific answers or concerns you have in regards to posting the piece initially, or that you feel have been spurred by other posters since? I dont want to repeat what others say, so if you have specific concerns before I read, they would be helpful to both of us probably.

I think I will stick with the list at the bottom of the first post.

Shanglan

 

[CharleyH]

I think I will stick with the list at the bottom of the first post.

Shanglan

Cool. I am a bit late, but wanted to post to OMissS first. Apologies. Work week weighs, but I will get there.

 

[CharleyH]

Finally and what a pleasure!

Immediately, I need to apologise to Varian, whom I know is up for critique (for taking wind away a touch) but I have been busy and am a bit behind in being able to comment on writing. So now to it.

As always your settings and characters match your eloquent style. Truly, this was a pleasure to read, Shanglan, even if this first draft is not something you are happy with. I always find your attention to detailed description exciting, real as it might be in a different period of time, and so vivid that I can almost breath the interiors and the streets.

First off, 2 minor things:

“Really, Edward,” he said, high-handed still but perhaps just a little sad. “What did you imagine? That we’d run away to a little cottage in the Lakes?”

I wondered if you mean on the lakes rather than in them, unless of course Lakes is a specific place, in which case it doesn't matter, I just didn't see the place referred to anywhere else.

“Just two years good service,” said Tome. “Keep it simple.”

Typo.

Questions:

1. Is Edward coming through consistently as a character?

Of your main characters, I think that Edward comes through as the most consistent in his manner and style. Upper class, intelligent, highly educated, a gentleman and gentle man if you will, of strength and quiet reserve. Responsible in a way with Julian in the beginning (leave me to resolve all of your difficulties) and later with Tom (job offer, exchanges of looks) in a way that belies, to me, that he is the care taker and not the kind of man who is taken care of. In this way, if I look at Julian and Thomas scenes as situational mirrors (and I do see a developing parallel in these two characters or events) I note a definite consistency in Edward.

I felt Thomas/Tom was much less consistent, but I will leave this until your last question.

2. Is the "set" of the leads too obvious - i.e., does it feel like they're being deliberately forced together?

In all honesty, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking, here. Do you mean how you break the story up into parts? Or the setting up of the lead characters?

In the first case, I did not find that many of your story breaks were necessary because the plot moved in a linear fashion as far as I could tell. In fact, the story breaks were almost irritating to me as I read (although I understand it may only be to separate a long story into shorter parts for the reviewer, yet I don't want to assume too much ), and I'm not exactly sure why there were so many since I didn't detect flashbacks or major scene changes, particularly in the middle of the story, where much of the plot occurs in the same area of London. I am curious as to why you do this, but maybe I will get my answer when I read previous feedback from others.

If, on the other hand, you are referring to the meeting of Tom and Edward? Their meeting must happen, and it is no surprise to me that Edward is in that part of town, even if it's obvious that he is out of place. I'm trying to think of why, and I can only say at this point the reason is because I see a parallel to the first scene with Julian. I think that you have done a nice job with the meeting … not over-bearing, being reserved in how much information you give the reader, leaving Edward as somewhat of a mystery. My first thought is why IS he there exactly? (Although I may have missed the why since your prose is so intoxicating) At the same time, it doesn't bother me because I think the why will eventually come … something equally mysterious from the semiotics of your story, the light, the dark (an interesting dichotomy between the world of Julian and the world of Thomas and yet not that dissimilar despite the gap) and both worlds that Edward walks through equally with and without caution.

In this way I see your early sentence,

" It wasn’t years that made a man taunting, jaded, surfeited with pleasures and wise in their ways. It was something he was born with. It was something he was."

as being instrumental in the greater theme.

Anyhow, I'm not sure I've answered this question because of my confusion regarding it, but I hope something of my answer is worth something to your imagination.

3. Is it reasonably clear what's going on between Edward and Julian in the first scene?

I am admittedly a bit muddy on this. At first, I assumed they were lovers, though I also felt a tad confused in my questioning of their relationship. You say a number of things … mentor, brother, father. I feel almost as if there is something incestuous going on, I know Edward sleeps with men, I'm certain Julian is a lover, but my immediate thought was that Julian was either a gigolo or a relative. I also know that Julian and what appears to me his haughty arrogance (the way he stands and fans the cheque) has something over Edward, but the cheque is not for Julian.

“It is wrong to give this man a living from the misery of others.”
THEN JULIAN SAYS
We pay them, they give us that little missive, and they go away.”

Well, if it is not Julian who wants the money, then I am intrigued as to who does, and why Julian is doing their dirty work, and whether or not Edward is being manipulated. This is my questioning conclusion on this scene. I'm sure this is set up for suspense and mystery and I quite love it, as it makes me not just want, but 'need' to read on.

4. The scene of Edward dealing with Tom in the street - where Tom is warning them about the ambush - feels like it badly needs something. What is it? Tom's POV? More of Edward's thoughts and background/where he's coming from/characterization? It feels thin to me.

Part of my answer is in a previous one. I'd like to take the opportunity to tell you more about how I feel toward this particular scene, though:

First of all, there is one inconsistency (contradicting myself now) in Edward's character, and it's in his action:

A young man, with white-blond hair and a cheap, flashy blue jacket. Edward paused and touched Kerrington’s elbow. A beggar? A thief? One never knew this time of night, even on the open street.

There is an element of fear in the gesture of touching another as a rogue runs up to them, unless he is whispering to Kerrington, but you have Edward thinking and questioning. Why it stands out is because I have not gotten an impression of Edward as a man who fears. He does in the beginning, pay someone off, but the manner in which he does so is quiet, deliberate and with a humble sense of pride (he still questions why he is doing it) does not speak fear to me. I didn't like this one gesture/movement, as it didn't sit well, in my mind, with the character you developed.

You’ve left your chequebook behind.”

Edward looked him carefully over. Absolutely not. There was not a chance that he was in any way connected with the club. And he noticed that the man didn’t mention whom or where he’d come from.

“I believe you have the wrong man,” he said.

This bothered me because the first thing I would do is check for my chequebook, and Edward doesn't. Also, Tom is running toward them, not from behind, so Edward must know that Tom is not from the place he just came from? This makes the remainder of the dialogue, the questioning of whether to believe Tom, useless to me. Edward shouldn't believe him unless he is intoxicated and unsure of himself, if you know what I mean? Even if he were intoxicated, then that would make him check more feverishly for his chequebook.

I think this continuity is what bothers you because the scene plays out smoothly, otherwise.

Also, one last thing about this particular segment. Kerrington says nothing? If Edward touched his arm, then it indicates to me that Edward is looking for protection from something bad, and the silence of Kerrington suggests that he is not giving it. At the same time, I don't see Edward as someone in need of being taken care of; he obviously deals with the situation himself. However, how close to them (proximity wise) does Tom get? Wouldn't that make them more immediately back up and/or push him away? Would not both men speak to him? Just questions. This is the part of the scene that doesn't fizz to me.

(5) I know that I'm flirting with death in introducing a fair bit of slang into Tom's observations and dialog. However, I also think it important in establishing who he is and what his life is like. How hard is it on the reader at the moment? Does it need to be cut back?

This is where I feel that Tom is inconsistent as a character. I felt you did not inject enough slang, certainly not as much as the lower class like Black John. Tom's character felt too educated for his street position based on dialogue. Specific examples:

“I’m sorry sir,” he panted, looking up to him. “They sent me after you. You’ve left your chequebook behind.”

It's too educated for one who has never held a job and needs a person to lie and write a letter for him.

You did a BEAUTIFUL job with this piece of dialogue:

“Fuckin’ nance boy. Some fuckin’ luck.”

“Fuckin’ waster o’ a nance too. Hardly tuppence on him.”

“Hi there, Snow Queen, innit?”

although in this case, I wasn't sure if it was just Black John talking, or some of his lacky's too.

I know Tom is not from London, but living in the part of town he does, for however long he has, and being a whore, I would expect more slang from him, not less as you have written his dialogue. Aforementioned, this is what made his character inconsistent, in my eyes, at least with his station in life.

PS: as I am writing a story taking place in the late 19th century, I'm happy to see your use of both fucking and cunt. They aren't quite as modern as people think .

Apologies that my answer to you has come late, but I hope something is of use. Always a pleasure to read your art, Shanglan.

I'll read the other responses now, and comment if I feel I need to comment.
(Again, apologies Varian).

 

[CharleyH]

Speaking of exhanges, what is the purpose of the second meeting between Black John and Tom? For me, this confrontation lessened the tension. Before the meeting, Black John was an ominous unseen presence whose motives were unclear. After the meeting, Tom simply owes him money, no? Sure, it's more money than Tom has or is likely to have, but it's a trifle to Edward. Seems like a far too easy resolution to that conflict on the horizon. Am I missing something?

Hi Penny. The second meeting with Black John to me emphasizes the nature of transactions taking place between all characters on all levels. (apologies, I'm late in responding, so maybe this has been addressed.) All characters appear to have unclear motives, so I am curious as to why this sticks out? (maybe you've answered - sorry - just filtering through right now).

 

[BlackShanglan]

Charley, many thanks for your detailed and very useful critique! I am in your debt. I've given a couple of responses below - more really just to let you know how helpful it was to me. Cheers!

Of your main characters, I think that Edward comes through as the most consistent in his manner and style. Upper class, intelligent, highly educated, a gentleman and gentle man if you will, of strength and quiet reserve. Responsible in a way with Julian in the beginning (leave me to resolve all of your difficulties) and later with Tom (job offer, exchanges of looks) in a way that belies, to me, that he is the care taker and not the kind of man who is taken care of. In this way, if I look at Julian and Thomas scenes as situational mirrors (and I do see a developing parallel in these two characters or events) I note a definite consistency in Edward.

I was very pleased with this. I was worried that Edward was coming through too cold or too dull; this is some reassurance.

In the first case, I did not find that many of your story breaks were necessary because the plot moved in a linear fashion as far as I could tell. In fact, the story breaks were almost irritating to me as I read (although I understand it may only be to separate a long story into shorter parts for the reviewer, yet I don't want to assume too much ), and I'm not exactly sure why there were so many since I didn't detect flashbacks or major scene changes, particularly in the middle of the story, where much of the plot occurs in the same area of London. I am curious as to why you do this, but maybe I will get my answer when I read previous feedback from others.

This is something that several people have noted. I think it's the Lit habit growing on me - that is, trying to break things into bitesized chunks. The other problem is that in Lit, everything has a space between paragraphs. I think that I picture this, in "real" print, as a series of regular paragraphs with just a single space between two paragraphs where there are now "***" breaks. However, I don't have an easy way to show that on Lit. I wanted just single-line spaces between regular paragraphs to indicate that this is all part of a linear story, but that at times we are changing time frames or locations. That said, there are some - like the break after Julian leaves - that look to me like they ought to go entirely. I'm hoping that the more subtle breaks of "regular" print might work on the others ... don't know. It feels like there should be something when we shift time or location?

If, on the other hand, you are referring to the meeting of Tom and Edward? Their meeting must happen, and it is no surprise to me that Edward is in that part of town, even if it's obvious that he is out of place. I'm trying to think of why, and I can only say at this point the reason is because I see a parallel to the first scene with Julian. I think that you have done a nice job with the meeting … not over-bearing, being reserved in how much information you give the reader, leaving Edward as somewhat of a mystery. My first thought is why IS he there exactly? (Although I may have missed the why since your prose is so intoxicating) At the same time, it doesn't bother me because I think the why will eventually come … something equally mysterious from the semiotics of your story, the light, the dark (an interesting dichotomy between the world of Julian and the world of Thomas and yet not that dissimilar despite the gap) and both worlds that Edward walks through equally with and without caution.

I think Edward's presence there does need some more explanation. Sometimes I get too immersed in my historical detail and I forget where and when I am writing. I get so wrapped up in the place and the feel of it that I forget that it's not immediately obvious to other people where one might be likely to be going to (a home in the West End) and coming from (the gentlemens' clubs in the Strand and St. James Square) if one was walking down Jermyn Street west of the Haymarket that time of night. It's best explained, especially as the alternative explanation is that they've been involved in much more dodgy amusements at the Haymarket and surrounding areas. I think that that can be resolved with some POV from Edward and/or conversation between him and Kerrington in that section. As I think I noted with another response, I think that fleshing out Kerrington should be a good idea for developing Edward through his description of Kerrington; I can also use it to explain their presence in that location.

I am admittedly a bit muddy on this. At first, I assumed they were lovers, though I also felt a tad confused in my questioning of their relationship. You say a number of things … mentor, brother, father. I feel almost as if there is something incestuous going on, I know Edward sleeps with men, I'm certain Julian is a lover, but my immediate thought was that Julian was either a gigolo or a relative. I also know that Julian and what appears to me his haughty arrogance (the way he stands and fans the cheque) has something over Edward, but the cheque is not for Julian.
Well, if it is not Julian who wants the money, then I am intrigued as to who does, and why Julian is doing their dirty work, and whether or not Edward is being manipulated. This is my questioning conclusion on this scene. I'm sure this is set up for suspense and mystery and I quite love it, as it makes me not just want, but 'need' to read on.

Hmmm. I'm torn. I would like it to be a trifle clearer - Julian's being blackmailed, and Edward's paying the blackmail because he has more money and it's his letter to Julian that's been found and used. On the other hand, the fact that you find the mystery interesting tempts me to avoid clarifying it too much. Certainly I want the identity of the blackmailer to be kept hidden for some time, and for the full details of his workings to be obscure. I think, but am not positive, that I will have Julian turn out to be helping the blackmailer deliberately in return for a cut of the profits.

I will have to rethink that mentor/brother/fatherly thing. It's meant to be Edward rejecting a list of excuses for his relationship with Julian - that is, a list of innocent-sounding reasons for seeing Julian that are not true, but that he could use if the blackmailers released the letter that they have. Edward's meant to be mulling over the possibility of lying about it and claiming that nothing sexual is going on, then rejecting that as both untrue and unworthy of the emotion that he felt. I'll try to clarify that; maybe I should just get rid of the list of excuses and have him more flatly and generally refuse to say that nothing happened.

There is an element of fear in the gesture of touching another as a rogue runs up to them, unless he is whispering to Kerrington, but you have Edward thinking and questioning. Why it stands out is because I have not gotten an impression of Edward as a man who fears. He does in the beginning, pay someone off, but the manner in which he does so is quiet, deliberate and with a humble sense of pride (he still questions why he is doing it) does not speak fear to me. I didn't like this one gesture/movement, as it didn't sit well, in my mind, with the character you developed.

Ah! I didn't thought to see it this way, but now I do. I will refine that, possibly through the added description of Kerrington and the situation. It's meant to be a warning gesture rather than a fearful one - sort of a "watch yourself" or a quick means of making sure that Kerrington has seen what he has. In other words - and I did love that you saw Edward essentially as someone who looks after others, because I think he is - it's Edward trying to make sure that Kerrington isn't caught by surprise.

This bothered me because the first thing I would do is check for my chequebook, and Edward doesn't. Also, Tom is running toward them, not from behind, so Edward must know that Tom is not from the place he just came from? This makes the remainder of the dialogue, the questioning of whether to believe Tom, useless to me. Edward shouldn't believe him unless he is intoxicated and unsure of himself, if you know what I mean? Even if he were intoxicated, then that would make him check more feverishly for his chequebook.

Excellent points on continuity that I shall iron out at once.

Also, one last thing about this particular segment. Kerrington says nothing? If Edward touched his arm, then it indicates to me that Edward is looking for protection from something bad, and the silence of Kerrington suggests that he is not giving it. At the same time, I don't see Edward as someone in need of being taken care of; he obviously deals with the situation himself. However, how close to them (proximity wise) does Tom get? Wouldn't that make them more immediately back up and/or push him away? Would not both men speak to him? Just questions. This is the part of the scene that doesn't fizz to me.

Yes, I think you are quite right. Kerrington needs to either do something or get out of that scene. I think it's unlikely Edward would walk home alone through that part of town, but even if Kerrington is just an annoying man from his club who happened to be going the same way, he needs to project something. Will do.

This is where I feel that Tom is inconsistent as a character. I felt you did not inject enough slang, certainly not as much as the lower class like Black John. Tom's character felt too educated for his street position based on dialogue.

I know Tom is not from London, but living in the part of town he does, for however long he has, and being a whore, I would expect more slang from him, not less as you have written his dialogue. Aforementioned, this is what made his character inconsistent, in my eyes, at least with his station in life.

I'm actually happy about this, although of course also worried whether readers will stick with me through it. Tom's got a reason for his halfway position; that will come out a bit later when we meet Lord Halford. I'm happy because it sounds to me like Tom's coming through roughly as I picture him - someone who knows the street argot, but has a lingering presence of something else in there. I hear him as somewhere between streetboy and gentleman's man, which is precisely what he is. I just hope that the apparent disconnect isn't so rough as to make the reader give up. I think he does come out as more educated and polished than Black John, but I want him to be - not so refined as Edward, nor nearly, but somewhere between the two if that is at all manageable. He's had an unusual life and his vocabulary and speaking style are a product of it.

Many thanks, Charley. Insightful as always!

Shanglan

 

[CharleyH]

Did you get all you needed?

 

[Pure]

bump!