Story Discussion: July 6, 2007 by angelicminx

[angelicminx]

Penelope Street= I love the inspiration and the way the story challenges our prejudices, but I'm not sure the exchange of letters works in the manner it could. I understand this is exactly what happens when a couple is separated, but making the letters realistic means there is a lot of redundant and extraneous information in them. The couple exchanging taped messages of one another climaxing is a very sexy idea, but it made me curious why they never use the phone. And four years? What war is this? Maybe it's in one of those letters, but if so I'm afraid I missed it.

Would you have any advice, assuming I stick to the letter format, for making them work?

Not knowing from experience, I didn't think a soldier would have access to a phone for overseas calls. I wasn't comfortable (and I think it was obvious) with the taped climaxes. (Mine would sound a lot like Kit's, lol.) I did want them to have a way to hear the other's voice, because it's something I would want myself.

Four years was a major faux pas. The point was to make the separation a very long period of time, because of the agony it would create. I didn't specify a war, or a destination, but it seems that I should.

At the end of the couple's separation, I was left wondering what was the purpose of this portion of the story except to conceal that the wife with whom Brandon is so in love is male and then drop it on the reader. If that is the purpose, then it works, but I think it could have worked in a little more efficient manner.

Main goal: Surprise. Secondary goal: Couple in love.

The good thing for me is I fell in love with the characters. The bad thing is, I didn't get that across to the readers.

And the deer story. That was just weird. I mean, is it meant to foreshadow that one of the couple will have to raise the child alone? Should the buck have died instead- Brandon's the one in danger at that time? Considering that the couple has been considering raising a child, can Kit not wonder about the reason Brogan mentions this incident? How can he not respond?! This seems like such a perfect moment to inject a little intensity- and conflict- into the letters.

The deer story basically wrote itself. Excellent observations, I never even thought about foreshadowing. What was going through my mind, when I mentioned that it reminded Brogan of Kit, was the fact that Kit was male and would be taking care of children as if he were the mother.

Did the couple's manner of speaking to one another change between the chapters? For instance, how many times does the couple call one another 'darling' in a letter, but only once do they do so when speaking and then it's Kit on the phone.

This was actually based on personal experience. My own letters to my husband use quite a few endearments that I hardly ever say aloud, darling being one of them. (And yes, my letters sound a little 'cheesy' to my own ears, lol.) Rewrites are definitely in order to make things a little more 'realistic'.

I enjoyed part two more than part one because I felt more suspense, although I wouldn't quite call it a page-turner. Is there really no other inexpensive method of impregnation besides having sex? If I was Kathy I would certainly have looked into the possibility but I didn't get the impression that she'd done any real research along those lines. It was like, "Oh, my brother says this is the only way, I guess it is. Ok, let's fuck." I think my brother is pretty smart too, but there's no way I believe everything he says especially not about something like this.

Excellent point. I question everything my brothers give me as 'fact'. (Based on experience.)

And on the subject of brother- even if I would do it, he is so not going to be in the room! No way, no how. When she says something about Kit not touching her while she's naked I was like, "What? Are you kidding me?" I couldn't get past this enough to become involved in the moment.

My effort to address the issue, and be 'cute' at the same time. Hindsight being twenty-twenty, this would SO not happen in my own life.

Did you consider having Kathy try making the baby seem as non-sexual as possible? Wouldn't it have injected a little more emotion if they would have had to repeat the process? Would she have wanted to? I'd like to have seen the characters have to confront their emotions a bit more- especially the mood swings one endures while pregnant. Carrying a child is an emotional enough experience, but under these circumstances? I didn't feel Kathy's angst. She has some tough choices to make and I want to see her make them.

Actually, yes. I'd honestly rather not do the sex scene. As to the emotion, I agree, there needs to be more all the way around.

I loved your ending to this chapter- it really puts Kathy and Brogan in such a dilemma. Great job! I hope you're not going to make it too easy for them in the subsequent chapters, because I can't imagine this situation being anything other than an emotional nightmare for both of them.

Thank you. I liked the ending too, though it caught me off guard and I didn't want Kit to die. No, I think the next chapter is better than either of the first two as far as emotion goes, though it's not even close to finished. In hindsight, I should have finished the story and gone back to fix it before ever posting the first chapter, because as the story grew, so did my love for the characters. But I'm glad I didn't. I'm not sure if I would have put it on the SDC had I done that.

A minor note: I have a hard time believing that Kit would be able to speak after his accident and even if he could, I think it would have made for a better story if he had not had any last words. Would that not have made it all just a little more poignant? Again, minor.

Actually, I had a hard time believing it myself, but wanted the last reference to Now and Forever. I think you may be right.

Not so minor: Did anyone else think it too much to believe that nobody in the story seems to have any problem with the gay couple, except maybe the chauffeur and he might have been more amused than anything else. It seems like everyone is just a little too nice to them. *sigh* That's just not the way it is in the real world for a same-sex couple.

This gets back to being in Cherry Hill, though I did wonder if they wouldn't have already been known at the hospital. Though they've been married less than three years, it seems to me the community would know 'of' them. Unfortunately no, it's not typical for same-sex couples. A very good point to consider. Thank you.

I really appreciate your taking the time to read both chapters and give your feedback on them.

 

[angelicminx]

drksideofthemoon=

We can surmise from the letters in the first chapter that both sets of parents are least supportive of Kit and Brogan. What do Brogan's and Kit's parents think of the idea of a baby? What is their reaction, especially Kit's and Kathy's?

I wasn't sure if I should address this or not. I touched on it in the restaurant, briefly, but wasn't sure if I should take it further or not.

What is the plan for after the baby is born? Is one of them going to take an extended leave of absence to care for the baby?

Good questions. Hmm.


Yes, I'm interested enough now to wonder what will happen next.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Would you mind terribly giving me a few examples? I know there most likely would be, but I couldn't seem to pinpoint them at the time, and then I just forgot about them. (My tendency to rush)

How is Kathy going to deal with turning the baby over? Technically she is and will always be the child's mother. Have Kit and Brogan decided what they will tell the child when they are old enough to realize that Kit could not have given birth, will they tell the child the truth?

You've made mention that you have a husband, so I am assuming that you have children. I know the circumstances are different, but could you give birth to a child and just give it away.?

What are the legalities involved with a scenario like this one?

While I do think my writing is improving, it still feels so... elementary? [/COLOR] [/B]

There's nothing wrong with your writing, I think the depth of this discussion should dismiss any thoughts of that.

 

[angelicminx]

Penelope Street= My foremost advice would be not to tone it down to appease the narrowminded, especially since part of your point is to confront that mentality, right? That said, I didn't feel like the story avoided anything; every sexual moment doesn't need to be described in detail.

True. Okay, thank you.

If there was a letter line that drew a smirk upon my face, it was this early one: Anticipating my every need, you have proven to be the perfect wife... This line seemed more like something from a performance review than from a love letter.

I understand, lol.


While I think it works the way it is, if impact upon the reader is *the* goal, then I think the best time to start revealing Kit's gender is earlier, soon after the masturbation scene.

Food for thought.

I get the impression their relationship is accepted by everyone. They don't seem to have many worries in this regard and I don't find that realistic.

Ah, I see. Okay.

I think the revelation might have been more effetive had it been gradual, so each reader discovers it on their own before actually seeing Kit. This way the reader will feel like they figured something out instead of feeling like they've been tricked or deceived.

Great idea!

 

[angelicminx]

drksideofthemoon= How is Kathy going to deal with turning the baby over? Technically she is and will always be the child's mother. Have Kit and Brogan decided what they will tell the child when they are old enough to realize that Kit could not have given birth, will they tell the child the truth?

You've made mention that you have a husband, so I am assuming that you have children. I know the circumstances are different, but could you give birth to a child and just give it away.?

Good questions. Putting myself in Kathy's shoes, I had decided that being able to see the child would make it easier, but I do need to address the problem. I had decided that the child would be told, yes. Since Kit died, I still haven't figured out if Kit would be referred to as the child's mother and Kathy the aunt or if Kathy would just be "Mom".

What are the legalities involved with a scenario like this one?

I'll have to research it for accuracy. I assumed it would be the same for a surrogate/ adoption situation, but I'm not quite sure how it works. I only touched on bringing the paperwork to the hospital.

I have a cousin who didn't want her second child, so papers were drawn up for her parents to adopt him, but she never signed them.


There's nothing wrong with your writing, I think the depth of this discussion should dismiss any thoughts of that.

Thank you, Drk.

 

[jomar]

Hi angelicminx, I'm putting my two cents in, but am new to the discussion thing so bear with me. I read your story before reading the comments here so will try to not repeat them, but will say I had the same concerns.

Your writing is fine. I didn't mind the letter format, but did find Brogan's style too flowery for a soldier in active combat duty. However, I wondered why not email, streaming video, cell phones and the like. If you want to use the letter and old school cassette tape format, you may need to date the period, that might also serve to put artificial insemination out of financial reach, setting up the pregnancy sex.

And I did stumble at four years. He might be stationed somewhere for that long, but I think the family would be there.

I didn't have a problem with chapter one's surprise ending, though the wifey thing did get a bit old (I've done similar myself).

In one letter Brogan wrote the good news was they got back from the front lines. The bad news was "we're now a man short." May I suggest that the bad news should be that Corporal Harden was killed.

In the first chapter Brogan didn't write for two months. then jotted off a quick letter. Why two months? I've never been in the military, but even in an active operation (minefield), I would think two months is too long without mail call.

I like the idea of Brogan getting shot and almost dying, especially given Kit dying (great twist there). Brogan's recovery, both emotional and physical could be beefed up.

In places I think you could have provided more tension though conversation. For example, when the three are sitting around sipping wine before they do it, you could have had them awkwardly starting conversations, saying something at the same time, finally simultaneous laughter breaking some of the tension. Instead you told the reader the "tension in the air was thick enough to cut."

I didn't know Kathy well enough to understand why she'd go along with having Kit in the room. I agree that working through the awkwardness would have been more compelling than the Vin Deisel thing. I could also see just her and Brogan in the room alone (after Kit gave his blessing at the door and returned to the living room to drink wine) staring into each other's eyes throughout the act, the weight of what they were doing and how their lives would change on their minds.

For me, the sex was so so and I didn't feel the heat. You mentioned it's the harder part of the writing for you, so maybe that comes through. Or maybe I just respond to different things. For example, this sentence didn't flow well for me: "Kit grunted and drove his cock into Brogan's ass, filling him with what felt, to Brogan, like a massive load of cum." It might sound better to keep it simple and say: "Kit grunted and drove his cock into Brogan's ass, filling him with a massive load of cum."

In Kathy's phone call to Brogan about her water breaking he was fine and in control. So I didn't buy him being all flustered and forgetting what the plan was when he was talking to Kit. I think I know what you were going for - strong, in charge husband getting all flustered and the wife steps in to restore order. But what I thought was, Brogan was a soldier and had to keep his cool in combat. If anybody got all flustered I would have thought it would be the wife. If you want to do the dad gets zany thing, you might consider elaborating on other instances of Brogan being calm and cool about everything but the baby - like during the pregnancy when Kath feels "anything" and he gets all worried, trying to shuffle her off to the doctor. Also, the phone call between Kit and Brogan is another place you could use more conversation to show whoever's confusion.

I'm really sorry, but overall, I sort of found the characters to be a bit flat. I wanted to, but just didn't get a solid feel for them. I love your flair for endings and think you have the makings of a great emotional story. I'll reread and see what else I can offer. Are you getting the impression this is a much longer story?

 

[angelicminx]

jomar= Hi angelicminx, I'm putting my two cents in, but am new to the discussion thing so bear with me. I read your story before reading the comments here so will try to not repeat them, but will say I had the same concerns.

Your writing is fine. I didn't mind the letter format, but did find Brogan's style too flowery for a soldier in active combat duty. However, I wondered why not email, streaming video, cell phones and the like. If you want to use the letter and old school cassette tape format, you may need to date the period, that might also serve to put artificial insemination out of financial reach, setting up the pregnancy sex.

As a soldier overseas, would he have access to email, streaming video and cell phones? (Am I behind the times or what? )

And I did stumble at four years. He might be stationed somewhere for that long, but I think the family would be there.

Good point.

I didn't have a problem with chapter one's surprise ending, though the wifey thing did get a bit old (I've done similar myself).

In one letter Brogan wrote the good news was they got back from the front lines. The bad news was "we're now a man short." May I suggest that the bad news should be that Corporal Harden was killed.

Okay.

In the first chapter Brogan didn't write for two months. then jotted off a quick letter. Why two months? I've never been in the military, but even in an active operation (minefield), I would think two months is too long without mail call.

I was going with the assumption that there would not be a mail call, or a way for him to write, while he was in the field. While I can ask my brother, he was never stationed overseas so I'm not sure if he would know. The main point was to set up even more worry for Kit that Brogan had been killed.

I like the idea of Brogan getting shot and almost dying, especially given Kit dying (great twist there). Brogan's recovery, both emotional and physical could be beefed up.

(Thank you.) Okay.

In places I think you could have provided more tension though conversation. For example, when the three are sitting around sipping wine before they do it, you could have had them awkwardly starting conversations, saying something at the same time, finally simultaneous laughter breaking some of the tension. Instead you told the reader the "tension in the air was thick enough to cut."

Good point! I'm not sure, at this point, if I'm going to keep the scene, but if I do I may do just that.

I didn't know Kathy well enough to understand why she'd go along with having Kit in the room. I agree that working through the awkwardness would have been more compelling than the Vin Deisel thing. I could also see just her and Brogan in the room alone (after Kit gave his blessing at the door and returned to the living room to drink wine) staring into each other's eyes throughout the act, the weight of what they were doing and how their lives would change on their minds.

Hmm, I'm not sure that Kit could leave the room. I'm rethinking the whole scene, but will consider this if I keep it.

For me, the sex was so so and I didn't feel the heat. You mentioned it's the harder part of the writing for you, so maybe that comes through. Or maybe I just respond to different things. For example, this sentence didn't flow well for me: "Kit grunted and drove his cock into Brogan's ass, filling him with what felt, to Brogan, like a massive load of cum." It might sound better to keep it simple and say: "Kit grunted and drove his cock into Brogan's ass, filling him with a massive load of cum."

I was trying to convey the 'load' from Brogan's point of view, who wouldn't 'know' it was massive, just feel like it was. Sounds like I went too far with it, lol. I didn't used to struggle so hard with the scenes, but now... ugh! To be honest, I'd like to eliminate the detail and be subtle with the sex, with an eye toward going mainstream. I wonder how hard my stories would be hammered on here if I didn't have the detail?

In Kathy's phone call to Brogan about her water breaking he was fine and in control. So I didn't buy him being all flustered and forgetting what the plan was when he was talking to Kit. I think I know what you were going for - strong, in charge husband getting all flustered and the wife steps in to restore order. But what I thought was, Brogan was a soldier and had to keep his cool in combat. If anybody got all flustered I would have thought it would be the wife. If you want to do the dad gets zany thing, you might consider elaborating on other instances of Brogan being calm and cool about everything but the baby - like during the pregnancy when Kath feels "anything" and he gets all worried, trying to shuffle her off to the doctor. Also, the phone call between Kit and Brogan is another place you could use more conversation to show whoever's confusion.

Excellent observation, and you are absolutely right! I did want the 'new dad panic', and I like the idea of adding more panicky moments. Thank you! (It also shows me more areas where my characters are inconsistent and need to be 'fixed'.)

I'm really sorry, but overall, I sort of found the characters to be a bit flat. I wanted to, but just didn't get a solid feel for them. I love your flair for endings and think you have the makings of a great emotional story. I'll reread and see what else I can offer. Are you getting the impression this is a much longer story?

Thank you. Yes, I'm getting the impression that this is a much longer story, lol.



At the moment, I'm wondering if anyone was bothered by the fact that Kathy called Brogan from the hospital and not Kit, her brother? That none of the three used a cell phone?

 

[_Lynn_]

Let me try this again. I had my comments almost done last night and the computer did its number and lost them for me. This time I’m cheating by typing in Word and pasting them here.

The Author’s Note—I read it and thought it seemed a warning almost, the bluntness of it. Did it have to be there? People should know they’ve missed something if they haven’t read the first chapter.

First paragraph—This couple is together for the first time after how long? Trembling hands, tears, touching to be sure it’s not a dream, slow kisses that build to having them crawl over each other…I didn’t feel this was special, even with a few roses.

I’m looking for how this war affected him. A year away things must have changed somewhat. Even a blurb here and there, since it was a part of the first chapter, to be carried through.

The baby issue—I came away with this impression of the events… 1) He asked her…2) She says let me think …3) a short time, then ok let’s do it …4) group sex ((Which in itself felt odd to me))…5) we’re pregnant……….Wouldn’t she have talked to them, both together and alone, about how this would go with the child later in life? Where did her pregnancy go? Dealing with others in her life and people talking about the uniqueness of it wasn’t there. This would be a huge decision for a couple, as well as the third party involved, with so many things to cope with. It was included in the story, as a big event, but I was disappointed here.

All in all, I felt this entire chapter was filled with too much that we never learned or felt enough about.

I'm sure all of these have been addressed by now as I'm so far behind and I apologize for that. Just a few observations, and of course, it's my opinion only.

 

[jomar]

As a soldier overseas, would he have access to email, streaming video and cell phones? (Am I behind the times or what? )

I was going with the assumption that there would not be a mail call, or a way for him to write, while he was in the field. While I can ask my brother, he was never stationed overseas so I'm not sure if he would know. The main point was to set up even more worry for Kit that Brogan had been killed.

I would think they would be able to communicate quickly. I know they have email and other things now, and probably back in the first Iraq war. These days, soldiers are even blogging. Of course, you could send him off on "black ops" top secret missions so he's out of contact for extended periods.




I was trying to convey the 'load' from Brogan's point of view, who wouldn't 'know' it was massive, just feel like it was. Sounds like I went too far with it, lol. I didn't used to struggle so hard with the scenes, but now... ugh! To be honest, I'd like to eliminate the detail and be subtle with the sex, with an eye toward going mainstream. I wonder how hard my stories would be hammered on here if I didn't have the detail?

I don't think it was too far for Lit, you just started out from Kit's perspective. Keep with Brogan's and you're fine. I'm like you - I have a story that I'd like be more mainstream, so the sex has to be less graphic. I don't know how readers would respond to less detail - it might depend on the story. Maybe someone else can answer that one.

Excellent observation, and you are absolutely right! I did want the 'new dad panic', and I like the idea of adding more panicky moments. Thank you! (It also shows me more areas where my characters are inconsistent and need to be 'fixed'.)

I'm glad that helped! I don't think they need fixing, just fleshed out more.

At the moment, I'm wondering if anyone was bothered by the fact that Kathy called Brogan from the hospital and not Kit, her brother? That none of the three used a cell phone? [/QUOTE]

If your story is in current time, then they would have cell phones and Kathy would have left a message with Kit because the line was busy or the battery discharged or something and that's why she called Brogan. She probably would have used a land line to call, being in the hospital.

 

[Penelope Street]

I'm sure all of these have been addressed by now as I'm so far behind and I apologize for that. Just a few observations, and of course, it's my opinion only.

Maybe I'm biased because I agree with your comments, but I think yours is a perfect little critique. I wish I could be so brief! Even if we have addressed some of the things you mentioned, having redundancy in a comment is benificial in that the author knows multiple readers are having similar experiences.

Would you have any advice, assuming I stick to the letter format, for making them work?

If a string of letters was an easy recipe for stories, I'm sure we'd see more stories in the letters category- but it's far from easy and I can't claim to have any great advice on the subject- more like a few stray thoughts. To me, the trick is to find a way to keep the plot moving within the letters, limit the extraneous content, and still keep have the letters appear realistic. Yeah- that's all, lol. It seems like a similar problem to the one we encounter with any conversation between two characters, except in this case one character 'speaks' for several paragraphs at a time.

This gets back to being in Cherry Hill...

How many readers are going to understand the significance of living in this community before reading the story?

At the moment, I'm wondering if anyone was bothered by the fact that Kathy called Brogan from the hospital and not Kit, her brother? That none of the three used a cell phone?

I thought the lack of cell phones to be a little odd, but not a major issue.

I'd like to eliminate the detail and be subtle with the sex, with an eye toward going mainstream. I wonder how hard my stories would be hammered on here if I didn't have the detail?

I think you should write the story you want to write the way you want to write it and then decide where to post it.

 

[Varian P]

If a string of letters was an easy recipe for stories, I'm sure we'd see more stories in the letters category- but it's far from easy and I can't claim to have any great advice on the subject- more like a few stray thoughts. To me, the trick is to find a way to keep the plot moving within the letters, limit the extraneous content, and still keep have the letters appear realistic. Yeah- that's all, lol. It seems like a similar problem to the one we encounter with any conversation between two characters, except in this case one character 'speaks' for several paragraphs at a time.

Good advice, Penny. I've just remembered, another writer here at Lit has an entire story in letter format, and IMO, made it work beautifully: Shanglan's "Letters from the Hesperus ."

One of the things that makes Shanglan's story work so well is that the letters reveal the world of the letter-writer and draw us into a story. The letters are compelling, too, in the way they are voiced so carefully, the writer quickly becomes a vivid, endearing character.

Minx, I highly recommend checking the piece out: it has a twist or two of its own and might give you some good ideas.

 

[_Lynn_]

Maybe I'm biased because I agree with your comments, but I think yours is a perfect little critique. I wish I could be so brief! Even if we have addressed some of the things you mentioned, having redundancy in a comment is benificial in that the author knows multiple readers are having similar experiences.

I chose a few things that stood out as soon as I skimmed the story. When I went back and read it the second time, they were the top questions.

Sometimes, after I see all of the comments from everyone else, I feel a bit inadequate, almost. Thanks for letting me join in.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Sometimes, after I see all of the comments from everyone else, I feel a bit inadequate, almost. Thanks for letting me join in.

I can only speak for myself, but when I've submitted something in here for discussion, I'm looking for honest feedback on what I've written. Your opinion, and views are as valid as anyone else contributing to the discussion. I, for one am glad that you have joined us.

 

[_Lynn_]

I can only speak for myself, but when I've submitted something in here for discussion, I'm looking for honest feedback on what I've written. Your opinion, and views are as valid as anyone else contributing to the discussion. I, for one am glad that you have joined us.

Thank you.

Thank you angelicminx for sharing your story here.

 

[angelicminx]

First, let me apologize for not answering sooner. I've been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I want to thank everyone for their patience and for their opinions.

MistressLynn=

The Author’s Note—I read it and thought it seemed a warning almost, the bluntness of it. Did it have to be there? People should know they’ve missed something if they haven’t read the first chapter.

You're right, I don't think it does need to be there and I'll remove it in the rewrite.

First paragraph—This couple is together for the first time after how long? Trembling hands, tears, touching to be sure it’s not a dream, slow kisses that build to having them crawl over each other…I didn’t feel this was special, even with a few roses.

Great advice.

I’m looking for how this war affected him. A year away things must have changed somewhat. Even a blurb here and there, since it was a part of the first chapter, to be carried through.

The baby issue—I came away with this impression of the events… 1) He asked her…2) She says let me think …3) a short time, then ok let’s do it …4) group sex ((Which in itself felt odd to me))…5) we’re pregnant……….Wouldn’t she have talked to them, both together and alone, about how this would go with the child later in life? Where did her pregnancy go? Dealing with others in her life and people talking about the uniqueness of it wasn’t there. This would be a huge decision for a couple, as well as the third party involved, with so many things to cope with. It was included in the story, as a big event, but I was disappointed here.

All in all, I felt this entire chapter was filled with too much that we never learned or felt enough about.

Thank you. This will help me when I go back to fill in the holes.

I'm sure all of these have been addressed by now as I'm so far behind and I apologize for that. Just a few observations, and of course, it's my opinion only.

No apology necessary. Even if they had all been addressed, everyone has a different way of saying things and each is valuable. Thank you very much for voicing your opinion!

 

[angelicminx]

jomar= I would think they would be able to communicate quickly. I know they have email and other things now, and probably back in the first Iraq war. These days, soldiers are even blogging. Of course, you could send him off on "black ops" top secret missions so he's out of contact for extended periods.

Excellent idea!


I don't think it was too far for Lit, you just started out from Kit's perspective. Keep with Brogan's and you're fine. I'm like you - I have a story that I'd like be more mainstream, so the sex has to be less graphic. I don't know how readers would respond to less detail - it might depend on the story. Maybe someone else can answer that one.

Gotcha.

If your story is in current time, then they would have cell phones and Kathy would have left a message with Kit because the line was busy or the battery discharged or something and that's why she called Brogan. She probably would have used a land line to call, being in the hospital.

Great explanation!

I'd thought of the possiblility that 1) Kit was at work (but then Brogan calls him, so...) 2) Kathy's calling from the hospital and Kit's number is long distance. (But would it be? And a cell phone number would likely be local. )

I like your reasoning. Since it bothered me, I think it's something I'll have to address.

 

[angelicminx]

Penelope Street= Maybe I'm biased because I agree with your comments, but I think yours is a perfect little critique. I wish I could be so brief! Even if we have addressed some of the things you mentioned, having redundancy in a comment is benificial in that the author knows multiple readers are having similar experiences.

I wish I could too, lol.

Exactly. It points to something that definitely needs to be handled and doesn't leave an author thinking, "Well, only one person mentioned it so maybe it's not that big of a deal."

If a string of letters was an easy recipe for stories, I'm sure we'd see more stories in the letters category- but it's far from easy and I can't claim to have any great advice on the subject- more like a few stray thoughts. To me, the trick is to find a way to keep the plot moving within the letters, limit the extraneous content, and still keep have the letters appear realistic. Yeah- that's all, lol. It seems like a similar problem to the one we encounter with any conversation between two characters, except in this case one character 'speaks' for several paragraphs at a time.

Okay. Thank you.

How many readers are going to understand the significance of living in this community before reading the story?

Which tells me that I need to address the setting and community in a way that makes it clear, and helps suspend disbelief. (Not to mention adding in the worry regarding thier relationship being accepted in the community.)

I thought the lack of cell phones to be a little odd, but not a major issue.

Okay.

I think you should write the story you want to write the way you want to write it and then decide where to post it.

And stop trying to please everyone else... Good advice.

 

[angelicminx]

Varian P= Good advice, Penny. I've just remembered, another writer here at Lit has an entire story in letter format, and IMO, made it work beautifully: Shanglan's "Letters from the Hesperus ."

One of the things that makes Shanglan's story work so well is that the letters reveal the world of the letter-writer and draw us into a story. The letters are compelling, too, in the way they are voiced so carefully, the writer quickly becomes a vivid, endearing character.

Minx, I highly recommend checking the piece out: it has a twist or two of its own and might give you some good ideas.

I love Shanglan's work. Shang is my top favorite on Lit. I will take another look at the piece with an eye toward structure rather than entertainment. Thank you for reminding me about this particular piece.

 

[angelicminx]

I chose a few things that stood out as soon as I skimmed the story. When I went back and read it the second time, they were the top questions.

Sometimes, after I see all of the comments from everyone else, I feel a bit inadequate, almost. Thanks for letting me join in.

I do too, at times. Thank you for joining in. I'm very glad you did.

I can only speak for myself, but when I've submitted something in here for discussion, I'm looking for honest feedback on what I've written. Your opinion, and views are as valid as anyone else contributing to the discussion. I, for one am glad that you have joined us.

The same thing I look for, and I agree. Every opinion is valid and very much appreciated.

Thank you.

Thank you angelicminx for sharing your story here.

I'm glad I was given the opportunity. Thank you, and everyone else, for participating.

 

[pennagirl]

Review

Angelicminx,

Bravo for being brave enough to write stories and post them. Far braver than me.

I will try to give you some opinion on the first chapter.

Here's my perspective, I am an ex-military wife.
My husband went overseas unaccompanied -- THANKFULLY during peace time. He was stationed in South Korea for 15 months, he left 5 weeks after our church wedding. He was paid hazard duty pay because he was stationed on the DMZ.

We have all of our letters written to each other -- stored in the garage -- and we DON'T want our daughters to find (probably will destroy them shortly). The bulk of them are risque, but still had many of the boring everyday happenings of our lives detailed in those letters.

Your first chapter is good, needs a little work, but is readable. I think the first chapter could be done in two or more chapters; fleshing out your characters a little more. Describing Cherry Hill, NJ more.

I liked the second chapter better but that one too could be stretched into one or two more chapters.

Going back to the letters to each other that the characters wrote.

I'll start with the first few paragraphs and critique each section...MIND this is only my opinion, ignore the opinion if you wish. I have the viewpoint of experience of the military husband/wife separation.

Brogan sat in the barracks, waiting for the rest of his unit to arrive and thinking about his wife. When he'd gotten his orders the morning before, he'd thought his heart would break. Imagining the sweet face he'd had to leave behind, his eyes filled with tears. Picking up one of the pictures his wife had pressed into his hand that morning, he prayed this tour would end early.

Realizing the clock was ticking, and he was running out of time, he picked up his notebook and poured his heart out on the snow-white page.

If Brogan is deployed in a warzone, he would not be in a barracks -- that is a permanent building. He would be in a tank or in tent or in a humvee, etc. Taking a break in the shade. Ok now that I re-read that, is he's already at the base when he just received his orders with only one day notice, before shipping out for overseas?

I'm just a little confused. Normally, you get a least 30 days notice before you even ship out to get your affairs in order. If your special forces/ops, you already have everything in order and there is no notice and normally no goodbye (secrecy). I also worked as a civilian for the military, my job was to ship household goods to the next duty station.

You wrote "Imagining the sweet face" -- describe the eyes, the mouth, etc. "As tears filled his eyes" -- that's ok.

"Picking up one of the pictures".

Your personal stuff has to be really portable and can't take too much personal stuff with you, especially if deploying to a war zone.

Additionally, if someone would have saw the picture of a man (don't ask, don't tell rules) instead of a woman..he could be in trouble if conclusions were made. I would suggest a locket with a picture inside or opening his wallet and looking at the picture (note singular picture, not many).

"The clock was ticking and he running out of time" -- too descriptive, too cliched, phrases mean the same thing. It could be better if you wrote: As his short break was almost over, he quickly writes a letter home. P.S. Where did he have time to get paper, pen, stamps, etc. if he just left day before and just got to base?

Sorry I'm taking this apart. I'm not a writer or good with punctuation when I'm writting in a forum. I write personal letters in the same way as how I talk. When I write papers for college, its different.

I agree with the consensus that he's being deployed for four years is not correct. That doesn't happen with orders. Even accompanied (family) tours only last 3 to 4 years...depending on branch of service, if the tour is stateside or overseas and what country going to if overseas.

The letters to each other seemed to be too "pretty", too many adjectives. I just don't like "darling" as an endearment.

The first time I entered you, I thought I would die from the pleasure. Your body accepted my invasion into its tight sleeve, molding to me as if made for me alone. Staring into the deep blue pools of your eyes, the love and trust I saw moved me to tears. I was making love to my best friend, my chosen life partner, and the surge of emotion I felt overwhelmed me. Your sweet smile and soft, velvet touch was all that allowed me to continue sliding in and out of your silken sheath.

I didn't like this paragraph here is some reasons: "the first time I entered you" -- when after the wedding or when the first started dating. Molding shouldn't it be MOULDING, I could be wrong.

Once you find out this is a gay couple how could he stare into the eyes as they were making love? Maybe the two sentences are not supposed to go together but that is how I read these two sentences. Two "best friend, my life partner"; to keep consistancy with Brogan's term "my wife" or "my lover" would have been better than "life partner"...the "best friend" is fine. I have never used "life partner" when I refer to my husband.

The last sentence does not make sense. How does a sweet smile and soft, velvet touch is all that allowed me to continue sliding in and out of your silken sheath? What is touching? fingers, feet, bodies?
"Silken sheath" just say channel or passage, drop the silken -- tight channel, tight passage -- works better. I just didn't like the sentence.

"I remember holding your hips and rolling to the side, maintaining our physical connection, but it was you who kept the spiritual one. You cupped my face and looked into my eyes. A smile spread across your face as you told me we were, now and forever, one. You melted my heart in that moment."

Again, at the end when we find out this is a gay couple...how can a person look in the eyes and cup a face while still maintaining this physical connection?

I'll stop now.

Again I don't mean to tear this whole story apart. You are learning and just need to fine tune your writing.

This is a good story. You are a good writer. And this is just my opinion. There are far worse stories out there and those writers don't bother to get edited and don't bother to ask for help.

Angelicminx, at least you have asked and want to improve. That in itself means you are a good writer.

 

[Varian P]

Once you find out this is a gay couple how could he stare into the eyes as they were making love? Maybe the two sentences are not supposed to go together but that is how I read these two sentences.

"I remember holding your hips and rolling to the side, maintaining our physical connection, but it was you who kept the spiritual one. You cupped my face and looked into my eyes. A smile spread across your face as you told me we were, now and forever, one. You melted my heart in that moment."

Again, at the end when we find out this is a gay couple...how can a person look in the eyes and cup a face while still maintaining this physical connection?

It's perfectly possible to have anal sex in a face-to-face position. When I'm writing a scene with anal and I want it to be especially tender and/or romantic, whether it's m/m or m/f, I tend to have the characters in a face-to-face position.

Minx, I know you're not looking to be more detailed in the sex scenes, but it might help alleviate confusion on points like this (where people might be inclined to picture rear-entry unless told otherwise, then get confused with references to looking into each others' eyes) is to describe the initial penetration in a bit more detail: "Gazing into your eyes, I nudged your knees apart..."

 

[pennagirl]

Topic Review

Thanks Varian P. I really didn't know that it could be done. Your perspective and advice to the writer would help.

As I stated, my opinion/my viewpoint, doesn't mean I'm right.

Your stories are good too, congrats on being published.

 

[angelicminx]

pennagirl=

Bravo for being brave enough to write stories and post them. Far braver than me.

I will try to give you some opinion on the first chapter.

Here's my perspective, I am an ex-military wife.

*excited about actual military information*

My husband went overseas unaccompanied -- THANKFULLY during peace time. He was stationed in South Korea for 15 months, he left 5 weeks after our church wedding. He was paid hazard duty pay because he was stationed on the DMZ.

DMZ? (I know I should know this, but I'm drawing a blank.)

We have all of our letters written to each other -- stored in the garage -- and we DON'T want our daughters to find (probably will destroy them shortly). The bulk of them are risque, but still had many of the boring everyday happenings of our lives detailed in those letters.

Your first chapter is good, needs a little work, but is readable. I think the first chapter could be done in two or more chapters; fleshing out your characters a little more. Describing Cherry Hill, NJ more.

I liked the second chapter better but that one too could be stretched into one or two more chapters.

Going back to the letters to each other that the characters wrote.

I'll start with the first few paragraphs and critique each section...MIND this is only my opinion, ignore the opinion if you wish. I have the viewpoint of experience of the military husband/wife separation.

Brogan sat in the barracks, waiting for the rest of his unit to arrive and thinking about his wife. When he'd gotten his orders the morning before, he'd thought his heart would break. Imagining the sweet face he'd had to leave behind, his eyes filled with tears. Picking up one of the pictures his wife had pressed into his hand that morning, he prayed this tour would end early.

Realizing the clock was ticking, and he was running out of time, he picked up his notebook and poured his heart out on the snow-white page.

If Brogan is deployed in a warzone, he would not be in a barracks -- that is a permanent building. He would be in a tank or in tent or in a humvee, etc. Taking a break in the shade. Ok now that I re-read that, is he's already at the base when he just received his orders with only one day notice, before shipping out for overseas?

I was thinking he would have gone to the local base to wait for the rest of his unit before they all shipped out together. (My brother was National Guard and that was the procedure for maneuvers, but he was never deployed overseas.) Is that how it would work for someone in the reserves or National Guard?

I'm just a little confused. Normally, you get a least 30 days notice before you even ship out to get your affairs in order. If your special forces/ops, you already have everything in order and there is no notice and normally no goodbye (secrecy). I also worked as a civilian for the military, my job was to ship household goods to the next duty station.

Damn. I wanted a hasty goodbye, so their 'issues' wouldn't have time to be resolved. I'll have to rethink the scenario.

You wrote "Imagining the sweet face" -- describe the eyes, the mouth, etc. "As tears filled his eyes" -- that's ok.

Okay.

"Picking up one of the pictures".

Your personal stuff has to be really portable and can't take too much personal stuff with you, especially if deploying to a war zone.

Additionally, if someone would have saw the picture of a man (don't ask, don't tell rules) instead of a woman..he could be in trouble if conclusions were made. I would suggest a locket with a picture inside or opening his wallet and looking at the picture (note singular picture, not many).

Good suggestion. I definitely want to make it clear that the military does not know he's gay. (They might suspect, but not know.)

"The clock was ticking and he running out of time" -- too descriptive, too cliched, phrases mean the same thing. It could be better if you wrote: As his short break was almost over, he quickly writes a letter home. P.S. Where did he have time to get paper, pen, stamps, etc. if he just left day before and just got to base?

I assumed that he would have taken them with him from home and the stamps came from the mail clerk person. (Is there such a person?) How does it actually work? (I was trying to recall M*A*S*H and other shows )

Sorry I'm taking this apart. I'm not a writer or good with punctuation when I'm writting in a forum. I write personal letters in the same way as how I talk. When I write papers for college, its different.

I'm glad you are! I absolutely appreciate the effort and the information. When I write letters, or write on a forum, it's not quite like I talk, but it's also not 'formal writing'.

I agree with the consensus that he's being deployed for four years is not correct. That doesn't happen with orders. Even accompanied (family) tours only last 3 to 4 years...depending on branch of service, if the tour is stateside or overseas and what country going to if overseas.

What is the longest time I can give him in his orders? I want them to anticipate a very long separation, but have him come home injured after just over a year.

The letters to each other seemed to be too "pretty", too many adjectives. I just don't like "darling" as an endearment.

I have to agree with the letters being too pretty. (I was thinking corny, lol.) I think a lot of people don't like 'darling'. I don't use it much myself, and thought it was a little awkward while I was writing it, but figured I was just over analyzing. (I do use "darlin'" in my speech.) I'll fix them.

The first time I entered you, I thought I would die from the pleasure. Your body accepted my invasion into its tight sleeve, molding to me as if made for me alone. Staring into the deep blue pools of your eyes, the love and trust I saw moved me to tears. I was making love to my best friend, my chosen life partner, and the surge of emotion I felt overwhelmed me. Your sweet smile and soft, velvet touch was all that allowed me to continue sliding in and out of your silken sheath.

I didn't like this paragraph here is some reasons: "the first time I entered you" -- when after the wedding or when the first started dating. Molding shouldn't it be MOULDING, I could be wrong.

Okay. I had the same thought about the word 'molding' vs. 'moulding'. You have no idea how many times I changed it, lol. I think you're right about 'moulding'.

Once you find out this is a gay couple how could he stare into the eyes as they were making love? Maybe the two sentences are not supposed to go together but that is how I read these two sentences. Two "best friend, my life partner"; to keep consistancy with Brogan's term "my wife" or "my lover" would have been better than "life partner"...the "best friend" is fine. I have never used "life partner" when I refer to my husband.

Just like in hetero 'missionary position'. (Don't ask me how I know , but it is possible.)

My husband and I do refer to each other as a 'life partner', but it's when we're being a little sappy. 'Life partner' was intended as a 'clue' to the nature of their relationship. I'll consider changing it though.

The last sentence does not make sense. How does a sweet smile and soft, velvet touch is all that allowed me to continue sliding in and out of your silken sheath? What is touching? fingers, feet, bodies?

Will clarify, if I keep that part.

"Silken sheath" just say channel or passage, drop the silken -- tight channel, tight passage -- works better. I just didn't like the sentence.

Gotcha. Not many did. If I keep it, I'll change it.

"I remember holding your hips and rolling to the side, maintaining our physical connection, but it was you who kept the spiritual one. You cupped my face and looked into my eyes. A smile spread across your face as you told me we were, now and forever, one. You melted my heart in that moment."

Again, at the end when we find out this is a gay couple...how can a person look in the eyes and cup a face while still maintaining this physical connection?

Granted, it might be awkward, limbs getting in the way and all, but it is possible. I'll rethink it, however.

I'll stop now.

No, don't stop. I enjoyed it.

Again I don't mean to tear this whole story apart. You are learning and just need to fine tune your writing.

This is a good story. You are a good writer. And this is just my opinion. There are far worse stories out there and those writers don't bother to get edited and don't bother to ask for help.

Angelicminx, at least you have asked and want to improve. That in itself means you are a good writer.

Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to read and offer your opinion.

Many apologies for taking so long to get back to you. (I spent the last 96 hours trying to repair a rental home for a client and was not able to be here.)

Would you mind if I picked your brain about the military issues while I do the rewrite? I do want them to be as accurate as possible. My main questions would be about the deployment, the assignments and the return home.

Again, thank you very much!

 

[angelicminx]

Varian P= It's perfectly possible to have anal sex in a face-to-face position. When I'm writing a scene with anal and I want it to be especially tender and/or romantic, whether it's m/m or m/f, I tend to have the characters in a face-to-face position.

Minx, I know you're not looking to be more detailed in the sex scenes, but it might help alleviate confusion on points like this (where people might be inclined to picture rear-entry unless told otherwise, then get confused with references to looking into each others' eyes) is to describe the initial penetration in a bit more detail: "Gazing into your eyes, I nudged your knees apart..."

Yes, you're right. Unless I remove the sex, I'll do that. Thank you.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm really impressed with the story-telling here—the flow and rhythm is confident and has a nice command There's a bit of a "set-piece" feel to it, that characters are showing up in certain locations in order to accomplish certain dramatic functions—here's where he asks her the question, here's where she gives the answer, here's where they mull their response—but maybe that's inevitable in a story like this. I suppose it is.

I think it's a little dialog-heavy, a little talkly. No, that's not quite it. What I mean is, the main weakness for me, the big problem, is that I think so far the story is kind of superficial.

Now don’t take that in the negative sense. I don't mean that the story itself doesn't matter. It does. But I mean that these characters are dealing with an issue that has tremendous emotional import and consequences. Artificial insemination of a sister by a brother is just fraught with all sorts of wiggly and squicky emotional issues, but I'm not getting any sense of that. I'm not getting much emotional tension at all, and I'm certainly not seeing the kind of emotional and moral anguish you'd expect in real life and you'd want to see in a stoyr like this. (I mean, this is what authors get paid for, to wrestle with these issues). I'm not seeing any of this at all. I'm not seeing anyone really going off and pondering what this is going to mean and really eating their livers and I'm not getting sucked into their anguish and anxiety about it and the result in a strangely cold and glossy finish on the story

Of course, this is probably the hardest thing in writing - showing and conveying emotion—how do you do it? And usually it's done by getting inside a character's head.

Which brings us to another point here: I'm not sure who this story is about. There's no focus for me. It seems to be about Brogan and Kit, but at this point it could be about Kathy too, or all three, and I really don't think you can pull that off and have any sort of emotional impact. It's going to have to be about one of them. You’re going to have to pick one of them and stick with him or her, and tell the story as they experience it, otherwise it's going to have this "the gang has a baby" feel to it and have all the emotional impact of a Bobsy Twins adventure.

In fact, I think the reason you're not getting into the emotions is probably precisely because you don't have a point of view to tell the story from, and so all you can do is report their conversations and what they do and not what's going on inside of them, so of course you're going to end up with a superficial story, a story of what people do and not of what they feel.

I'd say go back to refocus. Pick a character; figure out what their specific emotional investment in the problem is and reshoot the picture from there. You seem to have all the equipment you need already in place. All you need is the emotional vantage point.

I'd really like to know what Kathy thinks about carrying her brother's child in her womb - what it would be like, how it would feel, and what he would feel, hiis semen impregnating his own sister. This is where most Lit incest stories chicken out - transgressing the family-lover boundaries. Let's see someone have a go at it for once.