Story Discussion: Varian, Main Queue 01-01-06

[BlackShanglan]

I caught the name Galen too. He was a famous Roman physician. Varian's not slipping that one by me.

*bangs head on table*

I am SUCH an idiot.

This is the penalty for reading trash. I knew who Galen the Roman was, but my brain kept linking to a character from the Dragonlance novels.

I'm so ashamed.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

*bangs head on table*

I am SUCH an idiot.

This is the penalty for reading trash. I knew who Galen the Roman was, but my brain kept linking to a character from the Dragonlance novels.

I'm so ashamed.

I have mixed feelings about getting too clever with names. I used to do it, thinking I was literary and sly, but now I usually just look for names that feel good in the mouth.

I read the newer version, and it's better, but I think you're still haveing trouble in having your characters maintain two contradictory feelings at one. It's okay for him to be hurt and pissed about the accident and still on the make for her, and it's okay for her to still be worried about him and what almost happened and to still respond to him. As it is, it's like once he tells her he's okay, she forgets entirely about the accident and shifts into being-seduced mode, and he slips entirely into seducer mode.

Personally, I'm still somewhat confused as to how serious this accident was. Obviously there are no major injuries, but having gravel stuck in your knee and bleeding through a sweatshirt with a wound too big for a band-aid is not the kind of thing you just forget about over a cocktail. I mean, this guy went sliding across the pavement for a few yards, I take it. They seem to put it out of their minds much too easily.

I'd like to see better use made of her sense of guilt and worry over the accident. As it is is, it just feels to facile to me, too easily forgotten as they cozy up with their drinks and get down to the main business of seduction. I mean, if he's bleeding that much and needs a gravelectomy, then she's going to be legitimately worried. If it's just a minor scrape, then you're going to have to better explain her motivation for being in his place, which is probably her sense of guilt and responsibility. A few more "You're sure you're all right?"s scattered through the ensuing dialogue would do wonders.

Their repartee is quite good, by the way. The dialogue itself is very strong and attractive and fun. The emotional tone is just a little bit off, though, in my opinion.

As far as telling both their stories from inside their heads, as long as this is done in separate scenes, I don't think this should be a problem. It's head-hopping in a single scene that causes the confusion and sense of disorientation. For instance, I have no trouble with his musings in the bathroom as he looks at his wounds.

There's a reason for the "show don't tell" dictum. The rationale is that showing the reader stuff forces them to participate in the story as they try and figure out what this stuff means. Why does he look at her like that? Why does she say what she does? We're drawn into the story as voyeurs, basically. Too much telling makes us passive observers and pushes us out of the story, and that's why we usually avoid it.

 

[Varian P]

...there are still some kind of rapid turns that confuse a bit
...what confused me at first - the problem was, that I hadn't taken my mind off the dog yet, when the bike accident happened - and I thus didn't really realize it happened until I was already reading how she got out of her car and wanted to call an ambulance...

Thanks, Munachi. Shanglan pointed this out, as well. I think I've got it ironed out a bit better in the current draft.

 

[Varian P]

I've sent you comments via email, Varian - you know what an absurdly verbose creature the horse is.

I'm so grateful the horse isn't taciturn--even if I still profited by your insights, I'd feel robbed of so much pleasure.

Thank you, Shanglan, as always, for your detailed and nuanced feedback.

-V

 

[BlackShanglan]

*digs shyly at ground with hoof*

Awww, shucks.

 

[wishfulthinking]

Hi VP

I'm just going through paragraph by paragraph to start, if you don't mind.

The first sentence - I don’t get the significance, but its observational cruelty was interesting. This made the next sentence a bit of a let down for me in its normalcy.

“out of the road” – this is strange [not in a good or bad or bad way] because in Oz we would say “off the road” I'll have to check out which country you are from now!

The motorcycle speeding toward her veered with a streaking blur of headlight suddenly low to the ground, scuttling away along the road behind her until bike and rider both fell still in their northbound lane.

> I would like a bit more of a lead-up to this sentence. Eg. Did the lights just appear in the wind shield? is she on a straight carraige lane or curved?

> I also think too much info is trying to get across in this one sentence. I would like shorter, sharper sentences here. And was there sparks as the bike slid across the road, did the bike wobble a bit as the driver fought for control? I want more here – not necessarily more than a paragraph, but just more meat to make this come alive off the screen.

“Ahead a pair of headlights peeped around the bend.” I prefer it if they were all alone – isolated. Perhaps consider deleting this sentence? Also, “peeped” doesn’t in my mind fit the piece. But then I'm a fussy pain in the butt.

She cranked the wheel hard left and hit the hazards as she rolled a careful, urgent U and crawled toward the crumpled, motionless form in her headlights. Already hitting 911 on her cell she plunged into the rain and rushed over, squatted down and touched the throat between helmet and collar feeling for a pulse. Viper-like his hand caught her wrist.

How is she feeling? If she isn’t feeling just reacting, perhaps think about acknowledging this. Also, is it cold? Because I'd think maybe she might be sitting there for several heartbeats, watching her breath fog the wind screen, clutching the steering wheel etc

She’s handling it very well. To the point where it would make a paramedic proud and me yawn. [sorry ] Can she just rush out of the car and leave it where it is rather than moving it, leaving the car door open to give a bit of urgency? Some things strike me as really strange [is it deliberate?] - she doesn’t notice any cuts and bruises or blood ? How did he not see the dog and react, like slowing down, or how did he see it full stop in the rain? I'm sorta scratching my head.

I’ll come back later and read some more. I found this very hard to get through – I just don’t feel it is real yet. It strikes me as very cold [again, deliberate?], but if so, perhaps strike a bit more of a balance, because it is leaving me untouched as she is unemotional. I know I'm being very harsh. I would have great great difficulty writing a scene like this. And my early drafts often lack the meat and it is a matter of coming back through and filling in the gaps over and over – so I appreciate the hard grind.

Cheers, WT

 

[Varian P]

Thanks so much, Zoot, for going through that second draft.

I have mixed feelings about getting too clever with names. I used to do it, thinking I was literary and sly, but now I usually just look for names that feel good in the mouth.

I try to strike a balance. I want my characters' names to have some kind of significance--not necessarily some clever or obscure literary reference, but something rooted in who they are/what they are in the story. I generally avoid super common names like Jennifer or Mark, except for minor characters. Much like I think it would be nice if all of us had unique names, rather than being in a room of fifty people where there are four Sallys and six Jasons. Just a pet thing of mine. But certainly, in looking for names based on some meaning, I immediately strike off almost all the candidates as too bizarre--so the reader would be spending all their energy wondering how to pronounce the name--or not having a sound that's pleasing to my ear.

I read the newer version, and it's better, but I think you're still haveing trouble in having your characters maintain two contradictory feelings at one...As it is, it's like once he tells her he's okay, she forgets entirely about the accident and shifts into being-seduced mode, and he slips entirely into seducer mode.

Personally, I'm still somewhat confused as to how serious this accident was. Obviously there are no major injuries, but having gravel stuck in your knee and bleeding through a sweatshirt with a wound too big for a band-aid is not the kind of thing you just forget about over a cocktail. I mean, this guy went sliding across the pavement for a few yards, I take it. They seem to put it out of their minds much too easily.

I'm afraid you're right. I'll keep working on it. She doesn't feel guilty or responsible--she helped him just because he needed help. Her real motivation for coming inside with him is her need not to be alone. But I think you've got something--it will help to interject some concern, on her part, for how hurt he is.

Their repartee is quite good, by the way. The dialogue itself is very strong and attractive and fun. The emotional tone is just a little bit off, though, in my opinion.

Thanks for the compliment--it means a lot, as dialgue's a real struggle for me. I'll keep working on the tone.

As far as telling both their stories from inside their heads, as long as this is done in separate scenes, I don't think this should be a problem. It's head-hopping in a single scene that causes the confusion and sense of disorientation. For instance, I have no trouble with his musings in the bathroom as he looks at his wounds.

Right--good to know. I'll consider making the changes in POV coincide with scene breaks.

There's a reason for the "show don't tell" dictum. The rationale is that showing the reader stuff forces them to participate in the story as they try and figure out what this stuff means. Why does he look at her like that? Why does she say what she does? We're drawn into the story as voyeurs, basically. Too much telling makes us passive observers and pushes us out of the story, and that's why we usually avoid it.

I'm an eager supporter of showing, and an incorribible recidivist for telling. I'll attempt to comb through the text and untell the telly stuff.

-V

 

[Penelope Street]

I would like shorter, sharper sentences here.

Are you feeling ok?

 

[drlust]

I know I'm coming to this incredibly late, but I just wanted to chime in on one thing that I think deserves further emphasis. Like one of the previous posters I judge novels by the first page or so...at least when I'm in the library trying to decide which new book to check out. If I'm not grabbed by that first page, I move on to the next one.

This lead in is a bit to obscure for me...I can't quite figure out what is happening with the accident. I read it twice through and I still couldn't quite picture the accident itself...the sequence of events, the placement of the vehicles, bodies, etc. Maybe I'm just tired, but I wanted it clearer. And, then as I think Penny said way back in one of the first posts, there wasn't enough of an emotional reaction. I've been in a couple of very severe wrecks over the years and the amount of adrenaline that pumps through your system is enough to give you the shakes, make you sick to your stomach, etc., etc. I don't get that here from either of them. As a result, what comes next seems wooden to me.

I liked the sex parts, myself, even though I'm not at all a fan of BDSM. I found yours interesting enough to keep going, which says a lot, given how little that form of erotica interests me.

Thanks for hanging this long one out there.

Allan

 

[Varian P]

Wishfulthinking and Drlust,
Thanks to both of you for jumpig in. I want to reply to what you've both said, but I might not be able to do so in detail before tomorrow.
Just so I know what's what, though, I'm curious whether you're reading the original intro, or the re-write I posted later (post #22, I think?). In the rewrite I tried to make the transition between her focus on the dog and her attention to the motorcycle more clear, and also tried to make both characters more shaken up by the accident.
Thanks,
V.

 

[Varian P]

Hi VP

Hi, WT. Thank you, thank you, for offering your critique.

I'm just going through paragraph by paragraph to start, if you don't mind.

Not in the least--I find comments on particular words/phrases and on overarching story issues both vitally helpful.

The first sentence - I don’t get the significance, but its observational cruelty was interesting. This made the next sentence a bit of a let down for me in its normalcy.

Well, the action's happening in chronologival order (the snippet about the eyes at the opening of the chapter occurs shortly before the scene where she's driving) but it's largely there are a kind of foreshadowing--a little hint that there's something going on with the MC which isn't immediately apparent when we "meet" her in her car/at Galen's house.

“out of the road” – this is strange [not in a good or bad or bad way] because in Oz we would say “off the road” I'll have to check out which country you are from now!

I'm a U.S.an. Here, I believe, it's common to say "in" and "out of" the road when referring to people and animals on foot. "The child ran into the road and was almost hit by a car." But a car careening out of control runs "off the road."

I'm just drawing on intuition/memory. Others may have more concrete understandings of the rules that pertain to this.

> I would like a bit more of a lead-up to this sentence. Eg. Did the lights just appear in the wind shield? is she on a straight carraige lane or curved?

I've done a little work on this segment--hopefully the images are more clear, now. Here's the current state of this segment:

Driving. She made herself believe there was only the car and the road and the night. The radio was off. Music lulled her. Made her vulnerable. Then the thoughts would come in.

She levered the clutch and downshifted. Willing every synapse to focus on the speedometer, the wipers squeaking across the windshield, the feel of the wheel in her grip as she navigated the curves of the rising and dipping road, she rolled diligently through the rain pooling and streaming over the asphalt and hanging in the sky like twisting strings of beads, slightly swaying, glinting in the beams of her headlights, rattling against the metal hood and glass windshield.

She had not even noticed how little she could see. A shadow. A movement. She stomped the brake before she knew why and fishtailed to a stop just a foot or two before she would have hit it.

A huge black dog stood staring straight at her, as if it could see past the glare of the headlights. Her heart hammering, she watched its rib cage contract and its jaw open and snap shut, jowls flapping and shuddering around vicious white teeth with a bark silenced by the clamoring rain before it sprang into the next lane, out of the road, and vanished.

Abandoned by the canine chimera, her gaze was snapped up and dragged off by the motorcycle speeding toward her as it veered with a streaking blur of headlight suddenly low to the ground, scuttling away along the road behind her until bike and rider both fell still in their northbound lane.

Ahead a pair of headlights flashed around the bend.

> I also think too much info is trying to get across in this one sentence. I would like shorter, sharper sentences here. And was there sparks as the bike slid across the road, did the bike wobble a bit as the driver fought for control? I want more here – not necessarily more than a paragraph, but just more meat to make this come alive off the screen.

I'll give this some serious thought--I wanted the scene to be brush stokes--quick impressions. The dog startled her, the accident happened quickly. She doesn't necessarily take in every little detail as the accident unfolds. I wanted to get across the dubious impression a witness has to something like this. But, on the other hand, I don't want the reader confused, and a number of you have pointed out that the images are confusing.

“Ahead a pair of headlights peeped around the bend.” I prefer it if they were all alone – isolated. Perhaps consider deleting this sentence? Also, “peeped” doesn’t in my mind fit the piece. But then I'm a fussy pain in the butt.

Hmmm. They're in the Hollywood Hills, and it's early evening, so I don't know about having them be all alone.

I think you're dead on with "peeped." That's changing.

How is she feeling? If she isn’t feeling just reacting, perhaps think about acknowledging this. Also, is it cold? Because I'd think maybe she might be sitting there for several heartbeats, watching her breath fog the wind screen, clutching the steering wheel etc

I've tried to pump up her emotional reaction to the accident some in the re-write. Hopefully she's not coming across so strangely detached, now.

No, it's not that cold. Fall L.A. rain.

She’s handling it very well. To the point where it would make a paramedic proud and me yawn. [sorry ] Can she just rush out of the car and leave it where it is rather than moving it, leaving the car door open to give a bit of urgency? Some things strike me as really strange [is it deliberate?] - she doesn’t notice any cuts and bruises or blood ? How did he not see the dog and react, like slowing down, or how did he see it full stop in the rain? I'm sorta scratching my head.

It's dark and rainy and she's coping with the immediate concerns of the situation. When he won't let her call an ambulance, she turns her attention to getting out of the road and out of danger of a second accident. His injuries are hidden under his jeans, sweatshirt, etc. Nothing's happened to his face.

I have this all so neat in my head--now to get it across on the page!
The dog springs suddenly into his lane (before springing out of the road). Galen swerves to avoid hitting it, loses control, and lays the bike down.

I’ll come back later and read some more. I found this very hard to get through – I just don’t feel it is real yet. It strikes me as very cold [again, deliberate?], but if so, perhaps strike a bit more of a balance, because it is leaving me untouched as she is unemotional. I know I'm being very harsh. I would have great great difficulty writing a scene like this. And my early drafts often lack the meat and it is a matter of coming back through and filling in the gaps over and over – so I appreciate the hard grind.

Cheers, WT

No no, not harsh at all--your comments are echoing what others have said, and clearly I need to do a better job of making the characters real and worthy of enough empathy that the reader cares enough to get involved and read on. I appreciate you letting me know how you're responding to what's here so far.

I'd be glad to hear any other thoughts you have, if you do read on.

Thanks again, WT.

-Varian

 

[wishfulthinking]

Are you feeling ok?

Ha! Just because I have problems getting a sentence under paragraph length

 

[wishfulthinking]

Sorry VP, I'll go through the amended version. Cheers, WT

 

[Varian P]

I know I'm coming to this incredibly late, but I just wanted to chime in on one thing that I think deserves further emphasis. Like one of the previous posters I judge novels by the first page or so...at least when I'm in the library trying to decide which new book to check out. If I'm not grabbed by that first page, I move on to the next one.

This lead in is a bit to obscure for me...I can't quite figure out what is happening with the accident. I read it twice through and I still couldn't quite picture the accident itself...the sequence of events, the placement of the vehicles, bodies, etc. Maybe I'm just tired, but I wanted it clearer. And, then as I think Penny said way back in one of the first posts, there wasn't enough of an emotional reaction. I've been in a couple of very severe wrecks over the years and the amount of adrenaline that pumps through your system is enough to give you the shakes, make you sick to your stomach, etc., etc. I don't get that here from either of them. As a result, what comes next seems wooden to me.

I liked the sex parts, myself, even though I'm not at all a fan of BDSM. I found yours interesting enough to keep going, which says a lot, given how little that form of erotica interests me.

Thanks for hanging this long one out there.

Allan

Hi Allan,

Thanks very much for this--you're in no way too late to be of great help.

I appreciate you letting me know what a hard time you had visualizing the accident, and that the obscurity of the scene and the emotional detachment are keeping you un-grabbed by this opening--if the opening's not compelling, I need to know. Cheers.

I've been trying to pump up the emotional reaction to the accident, from both characters, and I'm still working on finessing that.

I'm torn about how to portray the action of the accident itself. As I mentioned in my reply to wishfulthinking, I had in mind just giving flashes, glimpses of moments in the accident--the way I tend to see/remember things when something startling happens. But I don't want to leave the reader annoyed and confused, so I'll have to give this more thought.

I'm glad to hear the sex worked for you--especially if the nature of the encounter isn't what you normally like reading. Thanks for that.

-V

 

[wishfulthinking]

Hi Varian, I tried the opening scene in post no 22, but I still came across the same problems - it's emotionless, and their words or actions didn't ring true for me. Sorry to be so harsh I don't think I can read further than what I have done. I doubt it is much help for you.

Here goes:

I guess “driving” tells me immediately where the character is in the scheme of things, but it isn’t a word I would “think” as I did it, like “I’m driving”. You’d get me to the same place with something like: The wipers squelched across the windscreen as she squinted through lashing rain to the dark road ahead. Her foot hovered over the break etc
> “rolled diligently” – eek, sorta loses the atmosphere for me

She had not even noticed how little she could see.

> I like this comment.

A shadow. A movement. She stomped the brake before she knew why and fishtailed to a stop just a foot or two before she would have hit it.

> before she knew why – do you need this? You’ve already told us what she saw.

A huge black dog stood staring straight at her, as if it could see past the glare of the headlights. Her heart hammering, she watched its rib cage contract and its jaw open and snap shut, jowls flapping and shuddering around vicious white teeth with a bark silenced by the clamoring rain before it sprung into the next lane, out of the road, and vanished.

> if she fishtailed, would she be looking out of her passenger window? so technically the dog wouldn't be in the glare of the headlights?
> This paragraph sets up the next nicely – she was focused on the dog, so she doesn't notice the motorcycle at first.

The motorcycle speeding toward her veered with a streaking blur of headlight suddenly low to the ground, scuttling away along the road behind her until bike and rider both fell still in their northbound lane.

> would the headlights be her first impression, as she can’t hear?
> Too much in a one sentence paragaph [my specialty ] - you need to break down her thoughts for me – motorbike coming towards her. Veering. Sliding. Her neck craning to watch it etc

She cranked the wheel hard left and hit the hazards as she rolled a careful, urgent U and crawled toward the crumpled, motionless form in her headlights. Already hitting 911 on her cell with shaky hands she ducked into the rain, rushed over, squatted down and touched the throat between helmet and collar feeling for a pulse. Viper-like his hand caught her wrist.

>I still have a hard time dealing with the capable driver routine in the midst of a potential disaster Someone could be bleeding to death and she hits the hazards lights and drives it off the road. I’d be more worried I killed or seriously hurt someone rather than road safety. But each to their own.
> She ran across the wet road, half bent over?

“It’s alright,” she said with pretended calm to the black visor of his helmet, dotted pale orange with reflected streetlights, “lie still. I’m calling an ambulance.”

> “are you hurt” or something similiar would be first gut instinct, wouldn’t it?

Good luck with it It is very easy for me to sit and criticise your hard work when I couldn't write a scene like this, so ignore my harshness. Happy writing

 

[Varian P]

Hi Varian, I tried the opening scene in post no 22, but I still came across the same problems - it's emotionless, and their words or actions didn't ring true for me. Sorry to be so harsh I don't think I can read further than what I have done. I doubt it is much help for you.

Thanks for going through the re-write of the intro, wishfulthinking--it's really helpful getting your reaction to the later draft. I don't think you're being harsh, I think you're being honest, and I'm grateful--pretending something's working for you when it isn't won't help me fix the thing.

I guess “driving” tells me immediately where the character is in the scheme of things, but it isn’t a word I would “think” as I did it, like “I’m driving”. You’d get me to the same place with something like: The wipers squelched across the windscreen as she squinted through lashing rain to the dark road ahead. Her foot hovered over the break etc

I think you're dead right, here. I was trying to fix the original paragraph so it would be obvious she was driving, and got a bit carried away.

> “rolled diligently” – eek, sorta loses the atmosphere for me

Good to know.

> before she knew why – do you need this? You’ve already told us what she saw.

Penny pointed that out, too. The two of you may persuade me, yet.

> This paragraph sets up the next nicely – she was focused on the dog, so she doesn't notice the motorcycle at first.

Cool--encouraging to think I'm getting some of the details conveyed a bit better.

>I still have a hard time dealing with the capable driver routine in the midst of a potential disaster Someone could be bleeding to death and she hits the hazards lights and drives it off the road. I’d be more worried I killed or seriously hurt someone rather than road safety. But each to their own.

Hmmm, I guess I'm failing to get across that she moves the car that way because the motorcycle rider is down, and there's a car coming in his lane. She's trying to keep him from getting run over.

Thanks again for coming back to this--all your comments really are helpful.

-V