Story of O and...

[Evil_Geoff]

My idea of good BDSM fiction?

The Marketplace series by Laura Antoniou Plot, characters, interesting hot action... *nodnodnod* That's some good shit, Maynard!

I liked some of O, some of the Beauty series, but for the most part I found them far too fantasy filled.

Surprisingly enough I have not read de Sade. Considering how I feel about the writing style of some of his contemporaries, if his stuff is anywhere near the same style I think I would rather slit my wrists.

Hellooooo... I'm a sadist, not a masochist!

janey and I have discussed permanent branding. We may reach that point, we may not.

 

[FurryFury]

The Marketplace series by Laura Antoniou

The first of these is the selection of this in the BDSM Book Club thread!

I'm looking forward to it~

 

[notalwaysweak]

I like Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Legacy series.

 

[chauderlos]

Story of O: Boring, really. A teenager wanking-story. trivia: The book was written by Dominique Aury, the wife of a conservative-catholic writer/editor.

Sleeping Beauty: Ditto. I've bought the series on the commendation of a friend, and it fell off my hands. Might as well put it on e-bay one day or an other.

Why do I dislike those books? Come on, man, be serious for a moment. those are books of fiction that's true, but the characters are so desembodied, nothing more that paper dolls. "O, you'll be branded tomorrow" - "Yepee, that's what I've always wanted", etc...

Sade is a different business though (by the way, it's 120 days of Sodom - as in Sodom and Gomorrah, not sodomy). Agreed, his depictions of orgies, rapes, murders, etc... are boring, to say the least. But the interest lies more in the criticism of society, of religion, of the established order. I'd say his books are more a testimony on pre-Revolution France than erotic fiction.
His life is really interesting, I've seen amazon got a series of boigraphies on him, but I can't comment on them.

As for a suggestion... Georges Bataille, for sure*. The story of the Eye (that can be downloaded here) , or Madame Edwarda.


Note to EG:

Considering how I feel about the writing style of some of his contemporaries, if his stuff is anywhere near the same style I think I would rather slit my wrists.

Care to share the names of his contemporaries you've read?


____________

*: "his best writings are intellectual tours de force that are to philosophy what fisting is to a virgin anus"

 

[catalina_francisco]

Story of O: The book was written by Dominique Aury

Her real name was Anne Desclos, the book was written under the pen name of Pauline Reage, and Aury was another pen name she used as a journalist...she was far from a shrinking violet of little brainpower. Some might even say she was ahead of her time given she worked in an age when most women didn't, and she dared to write something so daring and sexual in a time when women were not supposed to even think about sex. The book was written for her lover and employer, Jean Paulhan, who was a great admirer of Sade. She was raised in a bilingual family and considered a scholar of considerable talent in her own right and was responsible for translating and introducing the French to many noted writers such as Virginia Wolf, T S Elliot and F Scott Fitzgerald.

While there may be more graphic writing in our contemporary era (often with far less talent and psychology behind them IMHO), for its time it was considered hot and shocking enough to be banned as well as threatened with legal action against both publisher and author. I do not favour the practice of dismissing the talent of past writers based on what we see written today...much as I do not believe in judging in hindsight...after all, how many here can say they have had a book published, especially one which has remained a topic of conversation for so long and is still sold and read?

Why do I dislike those books? Come on, man, be serious for a moment. those are books of fiction that's true, but the characters are so desembodied, nothing more that paper dolls. "O, you'll be branded tomorrow" - "Yepee, that's what I've always wanted", etc...

Yep, they are fiction, and as I said, just because you and some others do not live a life which resembles the storyline in the least, does not mean it is not possible to apply it in RL for some people. Branding? Yippee? Yep, I was more than overjoyed to know I was going to be branded in a matter of hours, and still am, and what might shock you even more obviously is that yes, it was something I had longed for ever so long.

Catalina

 

[Etoile]

Good post, Cat. Well said.

 

[chauderlos]

Her real name was Anne Desclos, the book was written under the pen name of Pauline Reage, and Aury was another pen name she used as a journalist...she was far from a shrinking violet of little brainpower. Some might even say she was ahead of her time given she worked in an age when most women didn't, and she dared to write something so daring and sexual in a time when women were not supposed to even think about sex. The book was written for her lover and employer, Jean Paulhan, who was a great admirer of Sade. She was raised in a bilingual family and considered a scholar of considerable talent in her own right and was responsible for translating and introducing the French to many noted writers such as Virginia Wolf, T S Elliot and F Scott Fitzgerald.

The book was written under the name of Pauline Réage, her birth name was Anne Desclos, and Dominque Aury was the pen name she used all her life long, since she published her first work, an anthology of french religious poetry.
But you're right, Desclos is her real name.
And she wasn't only a scholar, she also played a role in the Résistance.

While there may be more graphic writing in our contemporary era (often with far less talent and psychology behind them IMHO), for its time it was considered hot and shocking enough to be banned as well as threatened with legal action against both publisher and author. I do not favour the practice of dismissing the talent of past writers based on what we see written today...much as I do not believe in judging in hindsight...after all, how many here can say they have had a book published, especially one which has remained a topic of conversation for so long and is still sold and read?

Since when do we have to have written a book, a piece of music or created a work of art in general to be allowed to raise an opinion?

By the way, Histoire d'O was not banned when it was published in 1954. However, it was forbidden to display it on the shopwindow of bookshops, to sell it to minors and to advertise for it - just like any other "porn" material today. But this is different from being banned - like Les fleurs du mal or Madame Bovary were at their time. If you're interested in trivia, actually the book came pretty close of being censored. But... Aury's doctor was a close friend of the minister of Justice, she (the doctor) arranged a lunch between them, and at the end of the meal the whole matter was dismissed.

Come on, there is a whole lotta lot of subjects you can challenge me, but literature... especially French literature...

Yep, they are fiction, and as I said, just because you and some others do not live a life which resembles the storyline in the least, does not mean it is not possible to apply it in RL for some people. Branding? Yippee? Yep, I was more than overjoyed to know I was going to be branded in a matter of hours, and still am, and what might shock you even more obviously is that yes, it was something I had longed for ever so long.

Catalina

Maybe I was too short on my previous explanation. I'm not judging the branding, nor am I being judgemental on many other practices. My point was that, just like others have said, branding, or any other marking, must be discussed, agreed upon, etc.. beforehand:

Branding is one of those things I would love to do after I've been in a very stable relationship with someone for a very long time. Barring that, I'll get along just fine without it. IMO, it's something that should only be done when you're certain you're going to be together for the long haul, else it'll end up being like the old rule that once you get someone's name tattooed on you, y'all will break up within the next six months, and you'll either be stuck with a painful reminder, or you'll have to spend a whole lot of money getting rid of it. (God, that was a run-on sentence.) I don't think any sort of "ownership" mark should ever be taken lightly, and I think it should take longer than a month or two to decide if you're going to do it or not. That's strictly my opinion; I'm really conservative about such things.

janey and I have discussed permanent branding. We may reach that point, we may not.

The fact that you're branded, and that you've enjoyed that moment, and that you longed for that moment for a long time does not shock me. But I trust this was discussed with F, that you knew eachother long enough before you took that step.

 

[FurryFury]

I like Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Legacy series.

These books have been the best for me that I've read fiction wise on BDSM!

I LURVE them!

 

[midwestyankee]

Hmmm...while I agree with my friend Chauderlos that Histoire d'O was a puerile wanker book in many ways, if I could get my hands on a copy in the original French that would be an interesting way to rebuild my French literacy. I wonder if Amazon...

 

[Netzach]

Same here. I'm too stream-of-consciousness, too. Imagine a cross between Flannery O'Connor and Virginia Woolf writing porn.

"And then Sue kissed Jack on his nose, a nose which, incidentally, had been broken at least three times in various barfights. Unfortunately for Jack, each break actually improved the appearance of his schnozz, which, of course, could explain why Sue refused to fuck him with the lights on. Poor guy.

Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah, Sue kissed Jack on his nose. Then, Jack kissed her chin, which kind of resembled a bulldog's, given Sue's terrible underbite. She'd never gotten corrected as a kid. Now that she can afford it, she figures what the hell? Might as well keep it, since she's been stuck with it so long, and no woman in her mid-30s wants braces, anyhow.

Jack took off her shirt. She took off his shirt. They stared at each other for a moment, thanking whichever Deities were looking over them that the damned lights were out, and got back down to business."

I'd read this and like it actually.

O is ok, as a metaphor, which it was. I know the SM crowd doesn't like to think of it as a metaphor, because that's a cop out, saying this kind of sexy torment isn't really possible, but she wrote it because she was in a lifelong affair with a man she would never marry and who would never marry her. Even the "I was challenged because someone said women can't write porn, so I showed them" story is hyperbole - she finally came out and talked about the story and the man who inspired it shortly before her death.

In light of this biographical detail I think O ends appropriately, O doing anything and everything she *could*. And the level of suffering is entirely appropriate.

That said, I find it unappetizing, and kind of extended wank. If she is writing for a male audience they don't get much credit.

If you want to read something in French to upset whatever your sensibilities are and do it in a much *sexier* way, L'Histoire de L'Oeil by Bataille is possibly my favorite intellectual one-handed read.

Masoch made suffering appetizing. Very appetizing. I don't think that's just my FemDom bias sounding off, I'd MUCH rather read that than most other things. He's a do-me bottom and he didn't challenge the state like Sade did, but I think he's woefully underrated in the lushness and observation of his writing and the open discussion of fetishes.

I'm more of a tattooing girl than a branding girl. And I'm not DIY - if I want my animal branded I'll take them to the body modifier. If I want "get it here" above their ass, I'll take them to the tattoo place.

ETA - weird, I didn't read chauderlos' post I admit, before writing this. Seems we like the same highminded smut.

If people are looking for some fun that smacks of the modern world and don't mind erotica that is comic gentle and not shot through with a million kinds of tragedy, I like The Leatherdaddy and the Femme by Carol Queen, and Carrie's Story / Safe Word. Personally, I like erotica to function for me like romance functions for other people. I want maybe some warts on the characters, but nothing too stress inducing, and I want them to have the kind of life I'd *like* to have with fewer downs and better more frequent fucking.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Since when do we have to have written a book, a piece of music or created a work of art in general to be allowed to raise an opinion?

An opinion is never an issue, but there is a tendency for people to often judge and form an opinion in hindsight, and this is often the case when people critique O based on their knowledge and experience of 21st century literature and art...as a student and lover of history, I don't find that a good basis for an opinion. My point was not so much about opinion as such as that so many seem to dismiss the writing as rubbish, which to me is not often how a book which has been discussed for over half a century and is still being discussed is viewed. To me, if a book is that badly written, it may sell well initially on word alone, but not for this long as word soon gets out about how bad it is. I am sorry if you were not critiquing in hindsight, but it seemed many were/are.

By the way, Histoire d'O was not banned when it was published in 1954. However, it was forbidden to display it on the shopwindow of bookshops, to sell it to minors and to advertise for it - just like any other "porn" material today. But this is different from being banned

It is different to being banned outright, but it did have a publicity ban placed upon the book which I imagine would have seriously impacted on sales of a lesser piece of writing. It also was not published in the UK until 1965 simply because they knew it would not pass censorship laws in either the UK or USA beforehand and would subsequently be banned. The UK also initially banned the film when it was released.

Come on, there is a whole lotta lot of subjects you can challenge me, but literature... especially French literature...

Contrary to what some would like to believe, I am not that into challenging anyone, or looking for something to challenge anyone on, but yes, I do have opinions. As to French literature not being worthy, I guess it depends on how you view it, in particular the book being discussed. Perhaps there is something else I could have challenged you on, but given I was told today I looked like a ghost and that was a reflection of how I have felt for the last few days, I might have missed it. Hmmm, maybe I should check once I am up and about again.

The fact that you're branded, and that you've enjoyed that moment, and that you longed for that moment for a long time does not shock me. But I trust this was discussed with F, that you knew eachother long enough before you took that step.

Wasn't that much discussion between us except him telling me he intended doing it, and yes, we had been together and married a couple of years. As I have said countless times before, it is not something I recommend for anyone who is only in a casual or possibly not-ever-after type relationship. For me, the branding in O was fitting with a committed relationship in that she had consented to accept whatever was decided on her behalf...works for me.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

An opinion is never an issue, but there is a tendency for people to often judge and form an opinion in hindsight, and this is often the case when people critique O based on their knowledge and experience of 21st century literature and art...as a student and lover of history, I don't find that a good basis for an opinion. My point was not so much about opinion as such as that so many seem to dismiss the writing as rubbish, which to me is not often how a book which has been discussed for over half a century and is still being discussed is viewed. To me, if a book is that badly written, it may sell well initially on word alone, but not for this long as word soon gets out about how bad it is. I am sorry if you were not critiquing in hindsight, but it seemed many were/are.



It is different to being banned outright, but it did have a publicity ban placed upon the book which I imagine would have seriously impacted on sales of a lesser piece of writing. It also was not published in the UK until 1965 simply because they knew it would not pass censorship laws in either the UK or USA beforehand and would subsequently be banned. The UK also initially banned the film when it was released.



Contrary to what some would like to believe, I am not that into challenging anyone, or looking for something to challenge anyone on, but yes, I do have opinions. As to French literature not being worthy, I guess it depends on how you view it, in particular the book being discussed. Perhaps there is something else I could have challenged you on, but given I was told today I looked like a ghost and that was a reflection of how I have felt for the last few days, I might have missed it. Hmmm, maybe I should check once I am up and about again.




Wasn't that much discussion between us except him telling me he intended doing it, and yes, we had been together and married a couple of years. As I have said countless times before, it is not something I recommend for anyone who is only in a casual or possibly not-ever-after type relationship. For me, the branding in O was fitting with a committed relationship in that she had consented to accept whatever was decided on her behalf...works for me.

Catalina

Would it make you feel a little better that I think the entire catalog of Dickens is crap that has no place in the canon? It may be a writing thing, not a girl thing.

 

[chauderlos]

Hmmm...while I agree with my friend Chauderlos that Histoire d'O was a puerile wanker book in many ways, if I could get my hands on a copy in the original French that would be an interesting way to rebuild my French literacy. I wonder if Amazon...

Amazon has it, as well as many used books sites. AbeBooks for instance.

I'd read this and like it actually.

O is ok, as a metaphor, which it was. I know the SM crowd doesn't like to think of it as a metaphor, because that's a cop out, saying this kind of sexy torment isn't really possible, but she wrote it because she was in a lifelong affair with a man she would never marry and who would never marry her. Even the "I was challenged because someone said women can't write porn, so I showed them" story is hyperbole - she finally came out and talked about the story and the man who inspired it shortly before her death.

In light of this biographical detail I think O ends appropriately, O doing anything and everything she *could*. And the level of suffering is entirely appropriate.

That said, I find it unappetizing, and kind of extended wank. If she is writing for a male audience they don't get much credit.

If you want to read something in French to upset whatever your sensibilities are and do it in a much *sexier* way, L'Histoire de L'Oeil by Bataille is possibly my favorite intellectual one-handed read.
Masoch made suffering appetizing. Very appetizing. I don't think that's just my FemDom bias sounding off, I'd MUCH rather read that than most other things. He's a do-me bottom and he didn't challenge the state like Sade did, but I think he's woefully underrated in the lushness and observation of his writing and the open discussion of fetishes.

I'm more of a tattooing girl than a branding girl. And I'm not DIY - if I want my animal branded I'll take them to the body modifier. If I want "get it here" above their ass, I'll take them to the tattoo place.

ETA - weird, I didn't read chauderlos' post I admit, before writing this. Seems we like the same highminded smut.
If people are looking for some fun that smacks of the modern world and don't mind erotica that is comic gentle and not shot through with a million kinds of tragedy, I like The Leatherdaddy and the Femme by Carol Queen, and Carrie's Story / Safe Word. Personally, I like erotica to function for me like romance functions for other people. I want maybe some warts on the characters, but nothing too stress inducing, and I want them to have the kind of life I'd *like* to have with fewer downs and better more frequent fucking.

The bolded parts:

 

[Homburg]

Would it make you feel a little better that I think the entire catalog of Dickens is crap that has no place in the canon? It may be a writing thing, not a girl thing.

Thank you. Dickens is tripe.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Would it make you feel a little better that I think the entire catalog of Dickens is crap that has no place in the canon? It may be a writing thing, not a girl thing.

Not really concerned one way or the other...and what do you know...also seems like you and I have some of the same books, or at least similar taste in some, prehaps not in all...but that is what I like about individuality, it is open to similarities and differences.Now I am back to bed where I belong and feel most comfortable right now.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

note to seth p

yes, i think Story of O is online.

i found it and posted the URL a while back; perhaps it's still 'up.'

==

note to midwest yank; "O" is available in french and english; i obtained a french copy, orderin online, probalby through amazon.
i don't think it puerile, though it's a bit too Sadeian to be realistic, as to its core.

 

[midwestyankee]

yes, i think Story of O is online.

i found it and posted the URL a while back; perhaps it's still 'up.'

==

note to midwest yank; "O" is available in french and english; i obtained a french copy, orderin online, probalby through amazon.
i don't think it puerile, though it's a bit too Sadeian to be realistic, as to its core.

Thanks. I may not have been as clear in my critique as I could have been. I find the writing to be quite good; the characters are considerably more fully drawn than those in the Beauty series, for example; and there is something quite satisfying about the way it ends. That said, on the whole it seems to work better as a wanking stimulant than as a novel, and so it's more in tune with a puerile audience than I would prefer.

 

[notalwaysweak]

These books have been the best for me that I've read fiction wise on BDSM!

I LURVE them!

I love that the whole world is so richly detailed, with the politics and the intrigue and all the beautifully fleshed out characters who grow and change so much. The fact that the sex scenes reduce me to blibbering jelly is nice as well, but it's at least partly due to the fact that there's a whole world there that they fit into and it makes sense, it's not just porn without plot.

 

[FurryFury]

I love that the whole world is so richly detailed, with the politics and the intrigue and all the beautifully fleshed out characters who grow and change so much. The fact that the sex scenes reduce me to blibbering jelly is nice as well, but it's at least partly due to the fact that there's a whole world there that they fit into and it makes sense, it's not just porn without plot.

Agreed. It has some character you care about and a real story. If only all BDSM fiction had those elements.