Story Ratings

[Virtuallee]

Sadsac wrote: "... Anyhow, I have taken all my stories off the voting feature, fuck all you ass-holes out there, who have probably never written an original piece of literature in your lives."

Pete, recognize that when the trolls force you to pull your stories, or take them down from voting and comments, THEY WIN!

Also remember that we're all equally susceptible to trolls. They're vermin, and we do our best to eradicate them... NEVER allow them to dictate the end results of our talents as writers. Stand up with us, Pete.

 

[sadsac]

Sadsac wrote: "... Anyhow, I have taken all my stories off the voting feature, fuck all you ass-holes out there, who have probably never written an original piece of literature in your lives."

Pete, recognize that when the trolls force you to pull your stories, or take them down from voting and comments, THEY WIN!

I appreciate your depth of feelings, but I sure don't agree with you, when you say these vermin win when I pull my stories off the voting feature... just that by the way... that they win.

How the hell can a rat win, when it's feeding on my questionables, if I remove them from it's filthy mouth?

Methinks that perhaps a little more objectivity on the part of the Administrators of this site, might be appreciated by one and all.

Just a thought...

pete.

 

[davidwatts]

I admit it.... I have finally succumbed to my innate resentment, against all these ass-holes who trash.

And this, after my high sounding pontification about ignoring these bastards.

One of my recent submissions - The Concubines - was running a perfect 5.0 after 10 votes, then slipped to a 4.7 after 17.

Tell me that isn't trashing!

Anyhow, I have taken all my stories off the voting feature, fuck all you ass-holes out there, who have probably never written an original piece of literature in your lives.

I did leave my poetry for you to trash.... go right ahead, you probably won't understand it anyway...

Authors.... UNITE!


Hello sadsac:

I believe that your comment is proof that this site should have some sort of grid that shows the authors the individual votes the stories get. How many 5's, 4's etc., so that you get a better idea of what constites trashing. Believe me, I had felt the same way you did in the beginning myself.

Allow me to show you why your trashing theory may not be correct.

You say your story got 10 five's to begin with.

After 17 votes, it had settled down to a 4.7 score.

What caused the decrease?

The lowest number of total points your story could have right now with a 4.7 score would be 80. (17 X 4.7=80)

That would mean that the next seven votes after your initial tally would have added up to 30 points at the least, since at 4.7 multiplied by 17 is 80 total out of a possible 85 maximum (17 X 5=85).

This means that the last seven votes could have been:

2 five votes
5 four votes

or:

4 five votes
2 four votes
1 three vote


or even:

5 five votes
1 four vote
1 one vote

All of those possiblities would have created the 4.7 score you ended up with.

The facts are these:

1. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a very high score.
2. It doesn't take much to knock a perfect score down when there aren't many votes in.
3. Scores do tend to go down after awhile, especially if readers see a 5.00 next to the title. The readers expectations are raised, probably unreasonably, and may be more apt to give out a four or less.


I have heard the thinly veiled accusations that other writers are sabotaging other authors scores. While I'm sure it has happened, and will happen, I think it happens less than thought. At least I hope so.


Is a four vote trashing? That's up to the individual author to decide.

Is a 4.7 a bad score? It is a score of 94% if you reduced it to a number grade, I believe. If we were giving numerical grades to our own work, would we score them as high as the readers do?

I have no idea if you were trolled or not. If you were, Laurel seems to be pretty good at weeding them out, and it's not uncommon to see vote totals lower and the score rise on occassion.

I hope you reconsider your decision, or at least ask the moderators to check out the numbers to see if any of my theories are plausible. They might not be, because I'm as full of it as the next guy. Good luck to you.

 

[Virtuallee]

Davidwatts wrote: "... The facts are these:

1. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a very high score.
2. It doesn't take much to knock a perfect score down when there aren't many votes in.
3. Scores do tend to go down after awhile, especially if readers see a 5.00 next to the title. The readers expectations are raised, probably unreasonably, and may be more apt to give out a four or less.


I have heard the thinly veiled accusations that other writers are sabotaging other authors scores. While I'm sure it has happened, and will happen, I think it happens less than thought. At least I hope so.


Is a four vote trashing? That's up to the individual author to decide.

Is a 4.7 a bad score? It is a score of 94% if you reduced it to a number grade, I believe. If we were giving numerical grades to our own work, would we score them as high as the readers do?

I have no idea if you were trolled or not. If you were, Laurel seems to be pretty good at weeding them out, and it's not uncommon to see vote totals lower and the score rise on occassion.

I hope you reconsider your decision, or at least ask the moderators to check out the numbers to see if any of my theories are plausible..."

APPLAUSE!!! Well said...

 

[sadsac]

Davidwatts wrote: "... The facts are these:

1. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a very high score.
2. It doesn't take much to knock a perfect score down when there aren't many votes in.
3. Scores do tend to go down after awhile, especially if readers see a 5.00 next to the title. The readers expectations are raised, probably unreasonably, and may be more apt to give out a four or less.


I have heard the thinly veiled accusations that other writers are sabotaging other authors scores. While I'm sure it has happened, and will happen, I think it happens less than thought. At least I hope so.


Is a four vote trashing? That's up to the individual author to decide.

Is a 4.7 a bad score? It is a score of 94% if you reduced it to a number grade, I believe. If we were giving numerical grades to our own work, would we score them as high as the readers do?

I have no idea if you were trolled or not. If you were, Laurel seems to be pretty good at weeding them out, and it's not uncommon to see vote totals lower and the score rise on occassion.

I hope you reconsider your decision, or at least ask the moderators to check out the numbers to see if any of my theories are plausible..."

APPLAUSE!!! Well said...

I wonder if perhaps you can believe that it isn't my ego that is bruised, just the damned unfairness of it all!

David has some good points, but I hope he will forgive me, if I say I do NOT expect to retain high scores, just because my little effort is the apple of my eye at the moment.

As a matter of interest, I consider my other recent submission - The Return - to be far superior in written skills and content, and that poor bugger dived real fast.

Anyhow.... kind of interested where this thread goes...

have a good one...

pete.

 

[davidwatts]

I wonder if perhaps you can believe that it isn't my ego that is bruised, just the damned unfairness of it all!

David has some good points, but I hope he will forgive me, if I say I do NOT expect to retain high scores, just because my little effort is the apple of my eye at the moment.

As a matter of interest, I consider my other recent submission - The Return - to be far superior in written skills and content, and that poor bugger dived real fast.

Anyhow.... kind of interested where this thread goes...

have a good one...

pete.

pete,

I think you'll find that many of us have experienced the feeling of having our own personal favorites wallow below others in our catalog. The story I consider at the bottom of my aromatic heap has the most reads of any of the other thirty. Go figure. Maybe sometimes we're too emotionally close to some of our work to look at it objectively.

 

[sadsac]

pete,

I think you'll find that many of us have experienced the feeling of having our own personal favorites wallow below others in our catalog. The story I consider at the bottom of my aromatic heap has the most reads of any of the other thirty. Go figure. Maybe sometimes we're too emotionally close to some of our work to look at it objectively.

Both pinkies...????

pete.

 

[sadsac]

Vermin

Why cannot any votes on submissions be authenticated by the critic?

I for one would have no problem with this, I'll stand up to any criticism of my criticism.

That's what 'Erotica' is all about, isn't it...?

Just another dumb thought!

pete.

 

[davidwatts]

Both pinkies...????

pete.

Depends on if I'm writing the good part or not.

 

[cloudy]

I'm sorry, I have to wade in here after reading some of the posts here....

How unrealistic is it to expect that any of our works will stay at a 5.0 indefinitely? It's not necessarily someone who "trolls" you who votes a four, or even a three. I've been trolled...my definition is someone who disagrees with you for whatever reason, and runs through your complete list of stories, giving each a one or a two vote without even bothering to read a single story.

Yes, we're proud of our work. That stands to reason. It also makes absolute sense that we are NOT perfect, no matter how hard we try, and so we're not going to please everyone.

A 4.70 on a story is nothing to bitch about....how sad.

There are authors here that I greatly respect, that I feel should be publishing what they write instead of offering it for free here, and if you would bother to ask them, you'll find that they all have stories that are rated less than 4.7, yet they don't pitch a prima donna fit, and remove the voting.

I watch my scores as well, and I don't like them going down anymore than anyone else does, but I'm also under no illusions as to my perfection.

Get over it.

 

[Virtuallee]

Cloud writes, among other things... "I've been trolled...my definition is someone who disagrees with you for whatever reason, and runs through your complete list of stories, giving each a one or a two vote without even bothering to read a single story."

I agree with a lot of what you had to say, but my definition of a troll is someone who disapproves with the story premise because it is outside of their personal comfort zone, (Interracial Love, Lesbian Sex, Transgendered, Gay, etc), and they summarily reject or lowball the story. And they could have a number of other attributes: they get 'kicks' from lowballing select stories; they low-ball others stories to (falsely) make their own seem more favorable; any number of things could be attributed to trolls. I don't see it being confined to the sabotaging of another persons complete works.

I don't think that a 3 or a 4 rating does constitute 'being trolled.' Other writers may feel that way though, and I see that as their prerogative. This tread was initiated to address the issue of trolling, and that is happening, although it is apparent that some subject 'bleed' has occurred.

Trolling is an element which we all have to contend with on public sites. To pretend it does not exist, or to ignore it doesn't work for everyone. And, since this is a forum for discussion of issues, we choose to address/discuss and confront it.

 

[espeteroh]

I've had a few negative comments but that's okay. I write to please myself, always have, and and I keep that in mind. I think there are just some people who get off on being negative. If I don't like a story and a request for negative comments, as well as positive, has not been put out I'll say nothing at all but then that's just the way I was brought up. The most negative comment I got was relative to an actually experience. I suppose I could embellish what actually happened but to what point?

 

[BALUS]

Extreme

This may not be the correct threat to direct this question to... but you may be able to answer it for me....
What happened to the great "Extreme"story section we used to have here?

 

[davidwatts]

I've had a few negative comments but that's okay. I write to please myself, always have, and and I keep that in mind. I think there are just some people who get off on being negative. If I don't like a story and a request for negative comments, as well as positive, has not been put out I'll say nothing at all but then that's just the way I was brought up. The most negative comment I got was relative to an actually experience. I suppose I could embellish what actually happened but to what point?

That's the price we pay for leaving readers the option of offering feedback, or voting for that matter. The writers that don't leave themselves open to the occassional sniper also miss out on a lot of incredible messages from people that are actually moved by what we write.

If I was getting 4.7 ratings for everything I wrote I would be elated, but would also be kidding myself into thinking I was something that I was not, as well as leaving me no motivation to improve either.

As Cloudy said, there are real writers here (like her) that don't get scores like that but are more deserving than some of those that do. Henry Miller would probably not get H's consistently either.

 

[cloudy]

That's the price we pay for leaving readers the option of offering feedback, or voting for that matter. The writers that don't leave themselves open to the occassional sniper also miss out on a lot of incredible messages from people that are actually moved by what we write.

If I was getting 4.7 ratings for everything I wrote I would be elated, but would also be kidding myself into thinking I was something that I was not, as well as leaving me no motivation to improve either.

As Cloudy said, there are real writers here (like her) that don't get scores like that but are more deserving than some of those that do. Henry Miller would probably not get H's consistently either.

I wasn't counting myself among those that should be published - not yet, but I'm grateful that you think so.

I understand that what I said above may sound unbelievably harsh to some, but if you're going to be an author, you have to develop some toughness of spirit, or you won't last. On top of that, I would consider myself horribly arrogant if I thought that every one of my stories deserved a perfect 5.0 rating. As a matter of fact, there are a couple, my first few, that I don't think deserve as high a rating as they have - being totally honest here.

My point is that those who think they deserve a perfect score must also believe that they have no room for improvement. If that's so, then why aren't they taking their work to an agent, and in turn, a publisher, instead of posting it here?

I have tons and tons of room for improvement, and I have been published, just not in the venue I'd like (and, no, it's not technical writing, either).

It also struck me as beyond arrogant to gripe about a score of 4.7. I have a story that won third in the Halloween Contest, and it barely hangs in there right around 4.5. Could be a jealousy thing, or it could be that it just isn't as good a story as I thought it was. *shrug*

Thinking that you're so elevated as to deserve a perfect rating on anything you write is just beyond me.

 

[davidwatts]

I wasn't counting myself among those that should be published - not yet, but I'm grateful that you think so.

I understand that what I said above may sound unbelievably harsh to some, but if you're going to be an author, you have to develop some toughness of spirit, or you won't last. On top of that, I would consider myself horribly arrogant if I thought that every one of my stories deserved a perfect 5.0 rating. As a matter of fact, there are a couple, my first few, that I don't think deserve as high a rating as they have - being totally honest here.

My point is that those who think they deserve a perfect score must also believe that they have no room for improvement. If that's so, then why aren't they taking their work to an agent, and in turn, a publisher, instead of posting it here?

I have tons and tons of room for improvement, and I have been published, just not in the venue I'd like (and, no, it's not technical writing, either).

It also struck me as beyond arrogant to gripe about a score of 4.7. I have a story that won third in the Halloween Contest, and it barely hangs in there right around 4.5. Could be a jealousy thing, or it could be that it just isn't as good a story as I thought it was. *shrug*

Thinking that you're so elevated as to deserve a perfect rating on anything you write is just beyond me.

That was why I attempted to show with the numbers that there are plausible reasons why scores change so dramatically when the votes are just starting to come in. It seemed just like when someone else on another thread you may remember, who thought they were being trolled when people voted a four on their stories. There is always a lot of talk about how we wish more people would vote after they read, but does that translate into just wanting readers to vote 5's? Would we rather get a four vote than not having them vote at all?

I always mention during discussions like this what a good idea it would be to have a record available to the writers that would give a breakdown of the voting on your stories. Nothing elaborate, just a little grid that showed how many 5's, 4's etc. the story got, which explains where the overall rating came from.

Because this same topic comes up so frequently on various threads, I think that feature might be a helpful addition for writers, as it would allieviate a lot of misplaced anger and general confusion regarding voting. If you do the numbers, no story that has a 4.7 rating is truly getting trolled.

 

[sadsac]

I'm sorry, I have to wade in here after reading some of the posts here....

How unrealistic is it to expect that any of our works will stay at a 5.0 indefinitely? It's not necessarily someone who "trolls" you who votes a four, or even a three. I've been trolled...my definition is someone who disagrees with you for whatever reason, and runs through your complete list of stories, giving each a one or a two vote without even bothering to read a single story.

Yes, we're proud of our work. That stands to reason. It also makes absolute sense that we are NOT perfect, no matter how hard we try, and so we're not going to please everyone.

A 4.70 on a story is nothing to bitch about....how sad.

There are authors here that I greatly respect, that I feel should be publishing what they write instead of offering it for free here, and if you would bother to ask them, you'll find that they all have stories that are rated less than 4.7, yet they don't pitch a prima donna fit, and remove the voting.

I watch my scores as well, and I don't like them going down anymore than anyone else does, but I'm also under no illusions as to my perfection.

Get over it.

Wow... I really pushed your button. AND I don't feel sorry for myself, or expect to maintain high scores. Give it a rest mate!

pete

 

[cloudy]

Wow... I really pushed your button. AND I don't feel sorry for myself, or expect to maintain high scores. Give it a rest mate!

pete

No, you didn't push my button, "mate", you just came off as sounding like an arrogant ass, that's all.

 

[sadsac]

No, you didn't push my button, "mate", you just came off as sounding like an arrogant ass, that's all.

my.. my. such depth of feeling... or is it vitriol?

pete.

 

[cloudy]

my.. my. such depth of feeling... or is it vitriol?

pete.

No, no....sorry, you misunderstand me, I'm afraid.

I'm very well-known for calling things the way I see them, that's all. Ask David Watts, he knows. I just thought it was arrogant to 1) gripe about a score of 4.70, because it implies that you assume your work to be above reproach, and 2) pitch a junior high-sized hissy fit, and turn the voting off.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. Some have more fragile egos than others. *shrug*

 

[sadsac]

My last word.

No, no....sorry, you misunderstand me, I'm afraid.

I'm very well-known for calling things the way I see them, that's all. Ask David Watts, he knows. I just thought it was arrogant to 1) gripe about a score of 4.70, because it implies that you assume your work to be above reproach, and 2) pitch a junior high-sized hissy fit, and turn the voting off.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. Some have more fragile egos than others. *shrug*

"SHRUG".

 

[Virtuallee]

Okay... Hopefully we've exhausted THAT exchange, and can go back to discussing the focus of this thread, which I understood to be 'Story Ratings.'

That trolling occurs and is a valid problem is not denied. Some of us choose to ignore that problem, and that is your right. I don't think it very mature that you choose to berate authors/writers who wish to discuss the problem.. And, especially to attempt to make the authors/writers who talk about the problem the object of scorn or ridicule.

I see no need to berate others as arrogant, prima donnas, or get into a name calling hissy-fit because you disagree, even while acknowledging that other see you as sound(ing) unbelievably harsh (your words, not mine)... Some of us are PPP's (newbie terminology for Pretty Prolific Posters)... I'd have expected a more polished tone.

And, it is difficult to expect a significant level of sympathy from others when one 'sports' a 4.70 rating. Let's try to avoid personal experiences focusing on your pet writing. The issue remains how to address true trolling.

The validity of the trolling problem is evidenced by the fact that the 'Poetry Feedback and Discussion' side of this forum has a very similar (and very active--94 comments) thread (Troll Discussion) on the issue. I think it would be very interesting to read some of those comments. They have some rather interesting proposals not yet discussed here. Incidently, they also have some of the same kinds of distractions as we.

 

[sadsac]

Okay... Hopefully we've exhausted THAT exchange, and can go back to discussing the focus of this thread, which I understood to be 'Story Ratings.'

That trolling occurs and is a valid problem is not denied. Some of us choose to ignore that problem, and that is your right. I don't think it very mature that you choose to berate authors/writers who wish to discuss the problem.. And, especially to attempt to make the authors/writers who talk about the problem the object of scorn or ridicule.

I see no need to berate others as arrogant, prima donnas, or get into a name calling hissy-fit because you disagree, even while acknowledging that other see you as sound(ing) unbelievably harsh (your words, not mine)... Some of us are PPP's (newbie terminology for Pretty Prolific Posters)... I'd have expected a more polished tone.

And, it is difficult to expect a significant level of sympathy from others when one 'sports' a 4.70 rating. Let's try to avoid personal experiences focusing on your pet writing. The issue remains how to address true trolling.

The validity of the trolling problem is evidenced by the fact that the 'Poetry Feedback and Discussion' side of this forum has a very similar (and very active--94 comments) thread (Troll Discussion) on the issue. I think it would be very interesting to read some of those comments. They have some rather interesting proposals not yet discussed here. Incidently, they also have some of the same kinds of distractions as we.

I heartily agree, except for the sympathy bit... that was uncalled for. I bitched about something... I DID NOT ASK FOR SYMPATHY!

And I read some of the 'Poetry Feedback' and was interested to find similar re-actions to mine.

They pulled their stuff off the voting list.

What a simple world we live in!

And who was the famous author, who when asked his opinion of the well known saying -- "You are what you write!" -- answered with a pungent:
"Jesus H C..., I hope so.. otherwise I'm really f****d up!"

The point I am trying to make, is that pretentious twits write pretentious stuff. I'm not including you in that category by the way!

And it ain't me buster!

pete.

 

[cloudy]

Okay... Hopefully we've exhausted THAT exchange, and can go back to discussing the focus of this thread, which I understood to be 'Story Ratings.'

That trolling occurs and is a valid problem is not denied. Some of us choose to ignore that problem, and that is your right. I don't think it very mature that you choose to berate authors/writers who wish to discuss the problem.. And, especially to attempt to make the authors/writers who talk about the problem the object of scorn or ridicule.

I see no need to berate others as arrogant, prima donnas, or get into a name calling hissy-fit because you disagree, even while acknowledging that other see you as sound(ing) unbelievably harsh (your words, not mine)... Some of us are PPP's (newbie terminology for Pretty Prolific Posters)... I'd have expected a more polished tone.

And, it is difficult to expect a significant level of sympathy from others when one 'sports' a 4.70 rating. Let's try to avoid personal experiences focusing on your pet writing. The issue remains how to address true trolling.

The validity of the trolling problem is evidenced by the fact that the 'Poetry Feedback and Discussion' side of this forum has a very similar (and very active--94 comments) thread (Troll Discussion) on the issue. I think it would be very interesting to read some of those comments. They have some rather interesting proposals not yet discussed here. Incidently, they also have some of the same kinds of distractions as we.

I was harsh, I meant to be.

As long as I've been posting here, this same discussion has been going on, and the same things have been said, over and over and over again.

The system is what it is. It's not mine, I have no choice other than to accept it, or not post my stories here. Period.

What gets to me, I think, is that the resources offered here, for those who choose to avail themselves of them, are incredible. You can interact with other authers (the Authors Hangout), get a very balanced critique from some accomplished writers (the Story Discussion Forum), get ideas tossed out at you (the Story Ideas Forum), and of course, see what the Lit population thinks of your stories.....good or bad.

We are offered something here that I have yet to find other places - for free! People bitch and moan and carry on almost interminably (or for as long as I've been posting here) about something that's free.

I think that Laurel and Manu do a tremendous job of keeping up with things as well as they do, to be honest, and although I don't like the trolling anymore than anyone else does, I take it for what it is: someplace I can learn, improve my writing, or just have fun with a couple of friends....doesn't cost me a dime.

Do I wish the trolling would stop? Sure, of course I do. Laurel does her sweeps at least once a month, more often during contests, and she does an admirable job of it. She's also wonderful about checking voting patterns if you use the "report this story" option at the end of a story.

There are people who give undeserved votes of 1, just as there are people who give undeserved votes of 5. It happens. It's a fact of life, and I don't see it changing, just like it hasn't since I've been here.....no matter how much we "discuss" it.

Isn't it rather biased to think that every 5 vote we receive is deserved, but no one has the right to vote a 1?

 

[Virtuallee]

I love this site, and I applaud everyone for expressing their views, as encouraged on the Top Banner: 'FREE SPEECH.' Even harsh speech.

I especially send a hearty 'THANK YOU' to Laurel and Manu for their untiring efforts to make the site a free and wholesome place for all to enjoy.

That said, this is a discussion forum, and even though the 'veterans' may have heard this discussion and the same things 'over and over and over again,' they need to note that most of discussion in this thread is by relative newbies, who haven't. If this is boring to you, why inflict yourself (and some of us) with the pain that comes from reading/participating in the discussion?

Everyone has an opinion, and not everyone else will agree with those opinions. Do we just keep our opinions to ourselves in this forum because someone else does not like what they (chose to) read? Of course not!!
Who should dictate the rules? I think they've been laid down effectively, and with clarity. Most of us try to live within those rules. And the most visible and appreciated rule here that I see, is FREE SPEECH. Don't try to stifle others right to free speech, and an active discussion by people who wish to address issues.

I don't choose to continue to dialogue with close-minded people who would deny my right to address what I see as an issue in forums. I don't have over 9800 posts (over 26.5 per day for over a year), so I don't presume the luxury of talking down at those who don't share my views. However, I will continue to address the issue of trolling, with those who want to address that issue.