T.S. Eliot: WTF?

[flyguy69]

Thank you - I'm most relieved.

I believe he went by the names Thomas Stearns - poor boy.

I'm no more familiar with Oasis than I am with old T.S. - sorry. I'll offer lyrics from Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell or Paul Simon but whethe they compare to Elliot is hard to say.

If we are brainwashed in school it has nothing to do with poetry - in my case any way.

Thank you for the PM.

The difference is that T.S. was busy writing poetry while we were gettin' high!

 

[bogusbrig]

I prefered that!

I do not think anyone answered - completely - why is TS better than an Oasis song? Is that NOT 21st century poetry? WHAT makes poetry great?

Time sifts out the good from the bad and the good lasts.

What is good? Consensus tells us what is good and quality can be seen and appreciated even if it is not to ones taste.

Despite many a superficial lecturer at inferior Universities wanting to dish the Dead White Males and replace them with a politically correct canon, the Dead White Males remain firmly in place because they are just so good!

If Oasis are around in another 100-150 years I will concede they are good but I doubt it. Noel Gallagher can create a hummable tune but he is so badly educated and badly read, he can't write decent lyrics.

 

[flyguy69]

Time sifts out the good from the bad and the good lasts.

What is good? Consensus tells us what is good and quality can be seen and appreciated even if it is not to ones taste.

Despite many a superficial lecturer at inferior Universities wanting to dish the Dead White Males and replace them with a politically correct canon, the Dead White Males remain firmly in place because they are just so good!

If Oasis are around in another 100-150 years I will concede they are good but I doubt it. Noel Gallagher can create a hummable tune but he is so badly educated and badly read, he can't write decent lyrics.

What? This isn't poetry?

We put this festival on you bastards
With a lot of love
We worked for one year for you pigs
And you want to break our walls down
Or you want fuckin’ to destroy us
Well you go to hell

Kids are running around naked fuckin’ in the bushes
Kids are running around naked fuckin’ in the bushes
Kids are running around naked fuckin’ in the bushes
Kids are running around naked fuckin’ in the bushes

I love it

Noel Gallagher, though a white male, remains alive.

 

[bogusbrig]

What? This isn't poetry?

Noel Gallagher, though a white male, remains alive.

I would say the lyrics are punkish and like most pop music, of the moment. Yep, good pop music.

It doesn't offer any revelation, transcendence nor anything to broaden or change ones perception of the world and existence. I also doubt there is any universal truth expressed in the lyrics. Time will tell but I could offer several years of charts full of what I would contend to be better lyrics by other pop stars.

My view is not one of snobbery as I come from a similar background to the Gallaghers, I'm just filled with dismay that working class people are always pictured as crude, nihilistic and ignorant and cannot aspire to anything better than what the Gallaghers have to offer.

That being said, I enjoy an Oasis tune when I'm out on the town having a beer.

 

[CharleyH]

Thank you - I'm most relieved.

I believe he went by the names Thomas Stearns - poor boy.

I'm no more familiar with Oasis than I am with old T.S. - sorry. I'll offer lyrics from Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell or Paul Simon but whethe they compare to Elliot is hard to say.

If we are brainwashed in school it has nothing to do with poetry - in my case any way.

Thank you for the PM.

Pleasure always. So, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell and Paul Simon. Are they poets in the same way?

 

[CharleyH]

The difference is that T.S. was busy writing poetry while we were gettin' high!

you were? :O

Well, lets say Jim Morrison is called a poet. I have read his book of poems (CRAP) does mescaline/opium make us poetic? WHAT IS poetry exactly? IS T.S better than the Rosetti's, Poe, Pope, Henry the 8th, Shaespeare, Carroll or Lear? (sp)

 

[CharleyH]

What? This isn't poetry?

Noel Gallagher, though a white male, remains alive.

GRANDE MUCHO BESOS!

 

[twelveoone]

Pleasure always. So, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell and Paul Simon. Are they poets in the same way?

Is this a serious question?
Are you making serious statements?
Have you read anything besides Prufrock by Eliot?

 

[CharleyH]

Is this a serious question?
Are you making serious statements?
Have you read anything besides Prufrock by Eliot?

Yep, but I have yet to see how we define Poetry Classics vs. Modern Poetry, which seems drenched in pop culture.

Have you read Oasis, or Madonna ?

Metaphor or iambs?

Poetry is diverse.

What makes it for you then?

 

[twelveoone]

Yep, but I have yet to see how we define Poetry Classics vs. Modern Poetry, which seems drenched in pop culture.

Have you read Oasis, or Madonna ?

Metaphor or iambs?

Poetry is diverse.

What makes it for you then?

I think we are using different meanings for terms. I assume Oasis and Madonna are writing lyrics, (no I haven't read them). Lyrics are words intended for music, poetry was not written for music, but are words alone. (Although I have seen "poetry" without words, yes "poetry" is "diverse"). It strikes me as an unfair comparison to compare a part with a whole. I have yet to see a lyric that I thought was great poetry, good maybe, not great.

If you are asking me what makes a poet great. I guess my definition would be that he wrote some great poems, alot of good poems, and they changed the landscape of poetry. Eliot, Yeats, Frost and D. Thomas spring to (my) mind in the 20th century as great poets in English. (and I don't particularly like Yeats, Frost or Thomas). Each has written Great poems; because of the construction and consistency I cannot imagine changing any word without the poem suffering. I do not see the possibility of improvement. Their great poems can be read by a diverse group and have meaning, and if one reads them again and again, not only does the meaning shift but a process of discovery begins. i.e. seeing it as art first, then beginning to see it as the craft.

Pruefrock, I never regarded as a great poem, it did change the landscape, the web link I left explains how. Others he has written I regard as great. One can not read the Wasteland twice without that discoverry beginning.

Lest anyone think, I think only DWM qualify as "great", I regard Emily Dickinson as great also, rating her higher than Yeats, Frost and Thomas. These are just my opinions, but every one of them I regarded as good, and in the course of time, I began to see just how good they are. Give it ten-twenty years, see if your opinions change regarding Oasis and Madonna. If it escalates, great.
.

 

[bogusbrig]

I think we are using different meanings for terms. I assume Oasis and Madonna are writing lyrics, (no I haven't read them). Lyrics are words intended for music, poetry was not written for music, but are words alone. (Although I have seen "poetry" without words, yes "poetry" is "diverse"). It strikes me as an unfair comparison to compare a part with a whole. I have yet to see a lyric that I thought was great poetry, good maybe, not great.

I think you make an excellent point 1201. Some of the greatest songs ever written have ridiculous lyrics but the lyrics added to the music plus sung by a great artist and something of genius is produced i.e Edith Piaff singing Je ne regrette. However, it will never be poetry.

Pruefrock, I never regarded as a great poem, it did change the landscape, the web link I left explains how. Others he has written I regard as great. One can not read the Wasteland twice without that discoverry beginning.

.

Thank god I am not the only one who doesn't think Prufrock is not a great poem.

 

[ishtat]

]

What makes a poet GREAT? And was he a woman?

Someone and I cannot remember who siad that a great poet was "one who was sufficiently obscure and sufficiently dead for his incompetence and failures to be decently forgiven or better still, forgotten"

 

[tintarron]

Someone and I cannot remember who siad that a great poet was "one who was sufficiently obscure and sufficiently dead for his incompetence and failures to be decently forgiven or better still, forgotten"

Despite being a bit of a wanker, Eliot remains a great poet because his cadences are exquisite:

And the lost heart stiffens and rejoices
In the lost lilac and the lost sea voices
And the weak spirit quickens to rebel
For the bent golden-rod and the lost sea smell
Quickens to recover
The cry of quail and the whirling plover
And the blind eye creates
The empty forms between the ivory gates
And smell renews the salt savour of the sandy earth

-t

 

[CharleyH]

I think we are using different meanings for terms. I assume Oasis and Madonna are writing lyrics, (no I haven't read them). Lyrics are words intended for music, poetry was not written for music, but are words alone. (Although I have seen "poetry" without words, yes "poetry" is "diverse"). It strikes me as an unfair comparison to compare a part with a whole. I have yet to see a lyric that I thought was great poetry, good maybe, not great.

If you are asking me what makes a poet great. I guess my definition would be that he wrote some great poems, alot of good poems, and they changed the landscape of poetry. Eliot, Yeats, Frost and D. Thomas spring to (my) mind in the 20th century as great poets in English. (and I don't particularly like Yeats, Frost or Thomas). Each has written Great poems; because of the construction and consistency I cannot imagine changing any word without the poem suffering. I do not see the possibility of improvement. Their great poems can be read by a diverse group and have meaning, and if one reads them again and again, not only does the meaning shift but a process of discovery begins. i.e. seeing it as art first, then beginning to see it as the craft.

Pruefrock, I never regarded as a great poem, it did change the landscape, the web link I left explains how. Others he has written I regard as great. One can not read the Wasteland twice without that discoverry beginning.

Lest anyone think, I think only DWM qualify as "great", I regard Emily Dickinson as great also, rating her higher than Yeats, Frost and Thomas. These are just my opinions, but every one of them I regarded as good, and in the course of time, I began to see just how good they are. Give it ten-twenty years, see if your opinions change regarding Oasis and Madonna. If it escalates, great.
.

Hm. Well Lyrics are poetry. Can it be differentiated from something spoken word? Lyrics like poems are meant for cadence and sound - rhythm and beat of the words on your soul. Like poetry?

As for changing poetry? How can it be changed if people expect it to compare to anyone past? Name someone since Dylan Thomas? Is poetry a dying art? Or maybe we as people are dying from beauty of use of changing language? BECAUSE we expect poetry to adhere to us and expectations of past forms?

Madonna cannot be taken out of her texts, and I know that and that includes everything she has ever done.

But a poet, 1201, now - a real poet? Is great poetry ever present? Or is a great poet always dead?

 

[twelveoone]

Hm. Well Lyrics are poetry. Can it be differentiated from something spoken word? Lyrics like poems are meant for cadence and sound - rhythm and beat of the words on your soul. Like poetry?

As for changing poetry? How can it be changed if people expect it to compare to anyone past? Name someone since Dylan Thomas? Is poetry a dying art? Or maybe we as people are dying from beauty of use of changing language? BECAUSE we expect poetry to adhere to us and expectations of past forms?

Madonna cannot be taken out of her texts, and I know that and that includes everything she has ever done.

But a poet, 1201, now - a real poet? Is great poetry ever present? Or is a great poet always dead?

Terribly sorry, Charlie, link I left seems to be down. In it Majorie Perloff agues that Prufrock was a complete break from the past, and certainly was one of the first "modernist" poems.
I remember reading that "The Waste Land" was not considered poetry, in alot of quarters.
Neither adhered to the then current expectations of what poetry was all about.
an example from 1915 or about the same time Prufrock was written, and may have been the time the Waste Land was started (unproven theory)

I Shall Not Care - Sara Teasdale

When I am dead and over me bright April
Shakes out her rain-drenched hair,
Though you shall lean above me broken-hearted,
I shall not care.

I shall have peace, as leafy trees are peaceful
When rain bends down the bough;
And I shall be more silent and cold-hearted
Than you are now.

This, I believe was turned into a lyric.
"Lyrics are poetry. Can it be differentiated from something spoken word?" Yes, by the addition of music, becoming the sung word.

the above a bit different than:

April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers....

April, spring, rain, death, a grouse against...quite different

So did Eliot change the landscape? Ginsberg? The landscape changes all the time, some just change it more.

I could name you 1,000 poets after Dylan Thomas, but I think your statement implies are any as great as..., I don't know, I like others better, but what does that say? Greatness is a bit of a concensus, perhaps a concensus of generations. I do not wish to explore the dynamics of the perception of greatness much further here.

I believe great poetry, certainly good poetry has, is and will be always written, you may be right in that we may not see it as such, if we close our minds.

 

[CharleyH]

no prob 1201. I will read tommorow or next, next, day

Terribly sorry, Charlie, link I left seems to be down. In it Majorie Perloff agues that Prufrock was a complete break from the past, and certainly was one of the first "modernist" poems.
I remember reading that "The Waste Land" was not considered poetry, in alot of quarters.
Neither adhered to the then current expectations of what poetry was all about.
an example from 1915 or about the same time Prufrock was written, and may have been the time the Waste Land was started (unproven theory)

I Shall Not Care - Sara Teasdale

When I am dead and over me bright April
Shakes out her rain-drenched hair,
Though you shall lean above me broken-hearted,
I shall not care.

I shall have peace, as leafy trees are peaceful
When rain bends down the bough;
And I shall be more silent and cold-hearted
Than you are now.

This, I believe was turned into a lyric.
"Lyrics are poetry. Can it be differentiated from something spoken word?" Yes, by the addition of music, becoming the sung word.

the above a bit different than:

April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers....

April, spring, rain, death, a grouse against...quite different

So did Eliot change the landscape? Ginsberg? The landscape changes all the time, some just change it more.

I could name you 1,000 poets after Dylan Thomas, but I think your statement implies are any as great as..., I don't know, I like others better, but what does that say? Greatness is a bit of a concensus, perhaps a concensus of generations. I do not wish to explore the dynamics of the perception of greatness much further here.

I believe great poetry, certainly good poetry has, is and will be always written, you may be right in that we may not see it as such, if we close our minds.

 

[bogusbrig]

Is poetry a dying art?

It's certainly low profile because like much contemporary visual art it tends to be rarefied and only understood by insiders and the initiated. The big name poets like Seamus Heany still sell a lot of books but I wonder how many really get read. However, apparently in Russia where poetry still speaks to the masses, poetry is still a mass art form. Somehow western poetry needs to speak and communicate with the masses without diluting its quality.

There are so many poets that seem to believe that obscurantism gives a poem quality and shows themselves to be interesting. That being said, after a quick think of the poems I like, I could be accused of being a disciple of obscurantism. But I contend there is justifiable obscurantism that exudes quality and obscurantism that trys to hide lack of talent.