The Death Penalty

[Laurel]

For those that say the death penalty is not a deterrent or is not effective. I disagree. In my opinion the death penalty is 100% effective in keeping the persons that committed cold-blooded murder from ever killing again. That is my prime concern.

Numerous studies disagree with your opinion. It may stop that particular person from killing again, but it doesn't deter future criminals at all. And the risk of executing the wrong person far outweighs any "benefit" it has on society.

If you're going to argue that the death penalty is wrong because of the possibility of error, you have to argue that any sort of punishment at all is wrong. It's just less seriously wrong.

If you're sentenced to life imprisonment and then found to be not guilty, you can be set free. You cannot make someone undead - at least, not to my admittedly limited knowledge.

Lets get up tight and personal. Your 18 year old daughter is raped and killed. The police catch a man running from the scene.DNA matches the skin under your daughter's nails to the man, as well as his semen in her. Tell me that you would not pull the switch yourself.I would not care about anything else, except to extract my revenge.

The law is not meant to be an instrument with which you may live out your vengeful feelings - it's meant to keep order in society. This isn't ancient Rome. This isn't present day Iran. This is America. If you don't like the fact that all citizens are treated as human beings, you can always move to Turkey.

I've read the stories on this thread and my condolences go out to those who've lost an innocent relative/friend/wife/etc. to a criminal. What I don't understand us why you feel it's perfectly acceptable for the state to put to death someone else's innocent child, why you feel that's an "acceptable" risk. I wonder if you felt your loved one was just another "statistic" when you lost him or her. One would think that, having felt the pain you've felt, you'd not want the families of other innocent people to be deprived of a life.

Mark my words: as more studies are done, as more information gets out on the ineffectiveness of the death penalty, as more people realize just how many millions of our tax dollars are wasted so the family of the "victim" can get revenge, as more people see just how many men and women are on death row due to ridiculously false accusations, bogus evidence, and forced confessions, we will see the tide of public opinion turn against the death penalty.

Check out this website and tell me these three men deserve to die for what they're accused of and the "evidence" provided:
http://www.wm3.org/
And that's just a case that happened to go public because HBO made a documentary of it. Had those cameras not been there, those three boys would have been executed long ago, as so many are, and no one but their families would have cared. Meanwhile, the real killer is alive and well, and there's evidence to suggest he's killed again. Who could call that justice?

What makes me proud is when I see the family of the victim fight AGAINST death penalty for the criminal. Those are people who can see past their own blind anger and realize that killing another person will not bring their loved one back. We need to start thinking logically instead of emotionally. We need to stop blowing millions of tax dollars on a punishment that is racist, classist, and ineffective.

 

[Laurel]

Now, since this already throws the concept of 'time served and anonymously back to society' out the window, how about treating all ex-cons to this down home hospitality? Aren't you entitled to know if a convicted felon of any sort lives on your block?

Absolutely. I completely agree. If life sentence actually MEANT life sentence, and if we'd reserve prison sentences for actual violent criminals instead of people caught with a bag of pot or caught stealing cable or what have you, we might actually have the space to keep people in for life. And if we had programs for youth offenders which did more than lock them away - that actually changed their behavior patterns (programs like that do exist, and are very successful but costly - however, what's more costly? a few months of training up front, or years of incarcerating repeat offenders?), then I think we'd be headed in the right direction. Just my $0.02, which is worth half that.

 

[Magic Merlin]

Numerous studies disagree with your opinion. It may stop that particular person from killing again, but it doesn't deter future criminals at all. And the risk of executing the wrong person far outweighs any "benefit" it has on society.

Laurel, when I say I believe the death penalty is 100% effective, what I mean is the person that is executed will never kill again. That is my prime concern. Whether it deters other criminals, I don't know and don't really care. What I'm most concerned with is that it stops that one individual from ever murdering someone else. And in that sense, it is 100% effective in never allowing that one murderer to ever murder again.

I think to obtain the verdict of death should be very difficult, as I don't love the concept of the death penalty, but I fully support the use of it. There are to many people to whom life has no absolutely no value, and to whom killing soneone is way to easy.

You make some very good points Laurel, and I respect your position. Your opinions on topics such as this always seem to be well thought out and voiced by you.

I wish our human society had no need for the death penalty, but from my own personal experiences I have changed my opinion being against it to supporting it. I just believe there are some truly evil people in this world to whom life has no value.

 

[Laurel]

You make some very good points Laurel, and I respect your position. Your opinions on topics such as this always seem to be well thought out and voiced by you.

Ah, cmon! Tell me I'm full of shit! It's no fun if I'm not attacked..lol!

This is yet another interesting discussion, in which everyone here has weighed in with wonderfully insightful opinions. It's amazing the way everyone here manages to discuss such hot-button topics without resorting to cussing and name-calling. You people are a class act.

I wish our human society had no need for the death penalty, but from my own personal
experiences I have changed my opinion being against it to supporting it. I just believe there are
some truly evil people in this world to whom life has no value.

I agree. I think that there are people out there who are completely incapable of living in society - the Ted Bundys, Jeffrey Daumers, and Richard Ramirezes of the world. These are people with no empathy for others, who enjoy killing and hurting, and should be removed permanently from society.

There's also a different type of violent criminal - the one borne of environment. The gangster, the thief... I truly believe that this type of person CAN be turned around if caught young enough. This person has a conscience, but it's twisted by his environment. There's a difference between a guy who fucks up & shoots a convenience store clerk in a robbery and a Robert Alton Harris. Neither act is justifiable or defensible, but I'm not sure that a death sentence is appropriate in the former situation.

Here's something to REALLY piss you all offf... I think OJ is guilty as hell. It's pretty obvious. However, I don't think he's a danger to society. I seriously doubt he'll kill again. Had they convicted him, though his crime was sheer evil, I think life in prison would have been a more appropriate than a death sentence.

If the court system wasn't completely fouled, if the death sentence was assigned equally based on the crime committed and not on race or sex or income, and if it was only prescribed for those who have proven that they cannot live productively in society - serial killers and the pathologically violent - then I may be able to support the death penalty. When all these conditions come together, pigs will fly and I'll eat cheese on the moon.

Stitchface made an interesting point when he talked about whether an "eye for an eye" approach to crime was necessary or appropriate. As a "civilized" society, I think we need to decide whether we want a system that dispenses revenge or whether we want a system that eliminates crime. If we truly want the latter, we need to start looking at crime and criminals with a more detached eye and focus on why they do what they do instead of how to punish them once they do it.

Frankly, I don't really care if a guy gets the chair after he shoots me in the head - I'm already dead! It's too late! I'd rather he was caught early, taught how to handle his anger, and becomes a productive member of society, thus saving me a bullet in the head. Some may say this is "coddling criminals", but the plain fact is that violent behavior has physiological and psychological roots, and thus CAN be detected and treated.

And the teeny fraction of criminals that were born evil? THAT'S what jail's for. If we spent half the money that we put into housing these people on preemptive measures, we'd live in a much safer world. That's my $0.02 - as Phantom once said, can I have my change back?

 

[Bliss]

Blame it on the salad...

You make some very good points Laurel, and I respect your position. Your opinions on topics such as this always seem to be well thought out and voiced by you.

Ah, cmon! Tell me I'm full of shit! It's no fun if I'm not attacked..lol!

This is yet another interesting discussion, in which everyone here has weighed in with wonderfully insightful opinions. It's amazing the way everyone here manages to discuss such hot-button topics without resorting to cussing and name-calling. You people are a class act.

You're full of shit! There, now can I have another french fry? I'm sick of these freaking cucumber salads!

And back to the topic, we are amazingly polite, aren't we? heehee. Well, other than a few tiffs here and there and some off the cuff psychological diagnoses now and again, er, but you didn't hear it from me!

Sometimes you just have to take a break from all the 'who's cybering who's cyberpartner' and discuss things that really matter, like who has the best fast food taco.

 

[Earthgoddess]

more radical than usual...hhmm could be pms

A long time ago my father and I discussed this topic and he felt that the victim's family should decide and act upon their decision only after the law and science had proven the person guilty. They are truly the one's living daily with the aftermath, and are best qualified to decide the punishment...my Mom was terrorized by a sick and twisted man who happened to be a neighbor,one we did not know-he would watch us walking to school then call her and tell her all the terrible things he was going to do to us-of course he was able to describe what we were wearing so my mother was panicking...luckily a family friend was an FBI agent and after the police informed my mother that prank(what they termed these hideous calls to be)calls are not illegal and besides the man was the son of a judge-he decided to act.
One day I stopped to play and he called my mom and told her he had me and went into lurid detail-I was simply playing at the top of our street. Luckily both my dad and the fbi agent were home and they came up the street-sent me packing, and proceeded to let the man know in lurid detail exactly what was going to happen if he ever even had those thoughts...it was all punctuated by the agent's gentle tapping on his weapon...the man never called again but when his file was pulled by the agent it turned out he was a convicted molester, and that his last victim barely survived the attack-she was 7...he had recieved a shorter sentence and come home to be watched by Dad(a judge).
So as mother I do believe in capital punishment-but I also think as a country we are far too lenient on sex offender's and molesters-we have an offender in our neighborhood-I found this out at a meeting the other night. Do i feel that this pdophile has been rehabilitated enough to be in a neighborhood with hundreds of children? Should I bank on our legal and penal system's evaluation of this man-I think not. Does he deserve to live his live?Yes, as long as he harms none-but if he lays even a finger on one child I personally will make his existence hell on earth...and God forbid if he were to harm my little one-I would demand my pound of flesh...no it would never undo the harm but I would feel satisfied knowing that the criminal would never experience any joy again...sorry to sound like a primitive, but we are so close to that edge when one of our loved ones is harmed...my uncle is a judge in Va and was involved in some of the war crimes trials in Vietnam-he also believes in the death sentence,and actually off the record supports public trials,stonings and the stocks....I feel lucky he doesn't see dunking ponds as a viable test of witchcraft...but seriously I hope I have not offended anyone..I respect both sides-I can not imagine what it must be like to live as an innocent sentenced to die for a crime you did ot commit-but I still maintain that those are far and few between.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Every society no matter what the legal system or punishment has had its killers and psychopaths. They do not care about the consequences or else they crave the attention.

Laurel I throughly agree with the fact that more money should be spent trying to rehab criminals in the beginning, but that isn't the way it works. Each trip to jail means more contacts, more ideas on bigger crimes and learning new ways to beat the legal system. There really isn't much that can be done about the black mark left on your record when it comes to getting a job either. When the states and feds both try and screen out any felons just who is supposed to give them an honest job that will support them on the outside?

Maybe the death penalty doesn't stop crime but you should watch them fight extradition back to Texas. Till there is a better system that doesn't allow the release of future murders and killers back into society I will support the death penalty.

Here is one ya'll can fuss at me for. I kind of like the fact that you can buy justice ie a really good lawyer. Is it fair? No, but the system isn't fair anyway so it kind of evens the playing field.

 

[Maniac]

Laurel, you are full of shit!!

You say that the death penalty costs the tax payers millions of dollars. Well, what the hell do you think it cost for that same shit head to sit in a prison for the rest of his life? Millions of dollars. Tax payers have to pay for his food, medical care, the cost of running a prison(electricity, beds, correctional officers, counselors etc..) and his education. The whole thought that prisons can reform these individuals is a load of shit.
I worked for the Texas prison system for five years, and I can tell you from personall experience that only a handfull of the inmates want to be reformed. The rest of them don't give a shit about you, me or anybody else.
You claimed that the death penalty does not deter criminals. That is only because the criminals know that they can spend anywhere from 1 year to 30 years on death row before they are put to death. If criminals were dealt with in a more speedy fashion they would then begin to fear getting the death penalty.

I understand that you have your stance and opinion on this matter and that you will stand by it no matter what. I respect that. However, I'm all for the death penalty and I will stand by it.

 

[Laurel]

You're full of shit! There, now can I have another french fry? I'm sick of these freaking cucumber salads!

So you know, Payne, your mention of McDonalds prompted a trip out for Filet O Fishes combos, big-sized, with root beer last night.

Laurel, you are full of shit!!

Hallelujah! Now, that's the stuff I expect to hear!

You say that the death penalty costs the tax payers millions of dollars. Well, what the hell do you think it cost for that same shit head to sit in a prison for the rest of his life? Millions of dollars. Tax payers have to pay for his food, medical care, the cost of running a prison(electricity, beds, correctional officers, counselors etc..) and his education.

I'll have to dig up my sources, but you're incorrect on this count. It actually does cost less to put a man in prison for life than to execute him. I swear! I'll find my source after I finish posting tonight's update...

The whole thought that prisons can reform these individuals is a load of shit.

I agree. Prisons are holding pens. However, there are programs set up for youth offenders that have had exceptionally good results. As I said in my previous post, we need to quit concentrating so much on punishment (va prisons, the death penalty, whatever) and concentrate more on prevention (via reform programs for youth offenders, pinpointing and correcting biological causes of pathological violence, etc.)

That is only because the criminals know that they can spend anywhere from 1 year to 30 years on death row before they are put to death. If criminals were dealt with in a more speedy fashion they would then begin to fear getting the death penalty.

That is how it is here in America. You can go live in Turkey, where anyone can be put into jail for any reason. You can live in Japan, where a cop was recently executed less than 2 months after he allegedly shot a citizen.

You think appeals aren't necessary? Read these pages and then tell me with a straight face that every person convicted in a capital case is actually guilty:

http://207.153.244.129/

http://www.amnestyusa.org/rightsforall/dp/race/index.html

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/links/dplinks.htm#ng

 

[Bliss]

So you know, Payne, your mention of McDonalds prompted a trip out for Filet O Fishes combos, big-sized, with root beer last night.

I was good and had a raw vege plate for dinner, but that was to make up for the hump day Big Mac Meals we had for lunch. Tell me you didn't really eat a Filet O Fish! Well, at least ya didn't say BK and the Whaler.

You really have to start watching A&E! They had these specials on tonight on American Justice about the new "Super Maximum Security" prisons throughout our lovely land and when the lucky inmates there get accused of gang association (no proof necessary apparently, other than the word of another inmate, hoping to get out), they get sent to complete solitary confinement units, dubbed "The Shoe", for an indefinite sentence. One guy they featured had been locked away there for 10 years! They ought to show these films to the little badasses in elementary school, all of them except for the future Ted Bundy's would be deterred from a life of crime.



[Edited by Payne on 08-02-2000 at 10:26 PM]