The MFA Discussion Thread

[Tzara]

Let me start commenting on the great responses to this thread with ninianne's. I hoped she would respond as she had mentioned previously that she was actually in an MFA writing program.

Well, I'm currently in an MFA program for fiction. I enjoy it--the classes, the friendships, and the opportunity to teach . . . sort of (I'm presently struggling through my first semester teaching Freshman composition).

But the main reason I went back to school is for the workshops. Everyone needs someone who they trust to run their writing by. Now, I'm not saying that everyone in the fiction workshop I'm part of this semester has the same skill level. But the same can be said for any other workshop I've ever been in.

What I've here highlighted is, I think, the real attraction of the MFA. It's what we all want here as well--thoughtful, competent, and honest feedback on our writing. Part of the value of an MFA program is the instruction by someone who has "been successful" (however that is defined) in the art, but a larger part is in interacting with other people who are equally serious about your art and who will (again, honestly) comment on one's work. A writer needs other people to tell him or her how he/she is doing in order to not simply be indulging in logomasturbation.

And I'm not saying that there are certain things I would never submit to workshop--I love fantasy but I wouldn't run it past my professor, who has a remarkably closed mind about some things. But again, the same can be said of any other workshop. There have been places I'd never take my erotica.

I've probably said this before (geez, I hope not in this thread--that would make my senior moments a bit too obvious), but I used to be a partner in a bookstore specializing in mystery fiction. At least two of the authors we hosted events for had MFAs from the Iowa Writer's Workshop, the crème de la crème of university writing programs. Both said that, while their interest was in detective fiction, they only wrote literary fiction in the program, as anything genre was, well, basically peed on.

And a million years from now, when I've turned completely grey from thesis stress and officially graduated, I will have the training to be a complete drain on society. My professors have postulated a glowing future which includes teaching 10 different sections of freshman composition at 4 different colleges/universities to make roughly $30000 a year (that's 10/semester, 20/year), and that's if I have transportation and a solid background in teaching.

I have heard that too.

I would not be looking at an MFA as career training.

If I want to be able to get a tenure track (before they throw that concept completely away sometime before I graduate) position, an MFA will work. It's considered a terminal degree (doesn't that sound disturbing? like terminal cancer) in academic circles--as long as it comes with significant, (by which we mean literary) publication credit. There is no way to get a job in an English department, MFA or PhD without publication credit.

What I've heard as well. You can get a job, just make sure you have a Pulitzer to show off to the selection committee.

More likely, when I graduate, I will resort to my background in technical writing, try to become an editor, or do the other thing I've been thinking of: go back to school and get a Master of Library Science. I think they're slightly more marketable.

Maybe.

Good luck to you, m'dear. Getting a job is always a crapshoot, especially for liberal arts majors. I admire you getting a degree you (well, I hope you) care about, even though its job prospects are a bit shaky.

May you do well.

 

[Tzara]

You inspire me always. I'd turn out all kinds of psuedo poemies. Just call me Rod McK.

I recently read an essay by Dana Gioia about the poet Robinson Jeffers. One of the things that really struck me was that Gioia said that of the major textbook surveys of "contemporary poetry" (I think by which he meant 20th-21st century poems) McKuen is in two of them and Jeffers only one.

When I was a junior in high school, one was considered a sophisticate if one carried a copy of Listen to the Warm over the top of your Physics text.

Meant you were sensitive, and arty.

Peace out.

 

[Tzara]

btw picked up a new book by Philip Schultz winner of the 2008 Pulitzer Prize $1.

Beats me. My copy cost me $3.00.

 

[greenmountaineer]

I recently read an essay by Dana Gioia about the poet Robinson Jeffers. One of the things that really struck me was that Gioia said that of the major textbook surveys of "contemporary poetry" (I think by which he meant 20th-21st century poems) McKuen is in two of them and Jeffers only one.

When I was a junior in high school, one was considered a sophisticate if one carried a copy of Listen to the Warm over the top of your Physics text.

Meant you were sensitive, and arty.

Peace out.

Run, if you will, to the top of the hill still upsets my stomach, and Bonnie Jean gives me a headache.

 

[bronzeage]

I recently read an essay by Dana Gioia about the poet Robinson Jeffers. One of the things that really struck me was that Gioia said that of the major textbook surveys of "contemporary poetry" (I think by which he meant 20th-21st century poems) McKuen is in two of them and Jeffers only one.

When I was a junior in high school, one was considered a sophisticate if one carried a copy of Listen to the Warm over the top of your Physics text.

Meant you were sensitive, and arty.

Peace out.

Popular poets always get the shaft from the academic world. If your 32 page illustrated book of poems appears in gift shops, don't even think about making it into the English Lit anthologies.

The great advantage of appearing sensitive and arty in high school, is it appeals to sensitive and arty girls.

 

[Tzara]

Run, if you will, to the top of the hill still upsets my stomach, and Bonnie Jean gives me a headache.

Probably made him buckets of money, though. Small buckets, anyway.

I have mixed feelings about Rod. I'd probably have to read his poetry over again now to tell whether it is quite as awful as it is portrayed by contemporary critics. On the other hand, the guy made boatloads of money (well, at least significant money) in the 70s writing poetry.

That, right there, earns my respect.

 

[Tzara]

The great advantage of appearing sensitive and arty in high school, is it appeals to sensitive and arty girls.

One of the books I'm reading right now is Donald Hall's (onetime Poet Laureate of the USA) memoir of his life in poetry, Unpacking the Boxes. There is a line in this book (and I'm really sorry I can't find it right now) that basically says the same thing.

Didn't really work for me, though. But then I wasn't "serious" about being a poet in high school.

This book (and this conversation topic) makes me wish I was.

 

[champagne1982]

You inspire me always. I'd turn out all kinds of psuedo poemies. Just call me Rod McK.

I'll give ya yer psuedo poemey thing... C'mere Rod.. Oh ya! Limerick me!

 

[Tzara]

I'd love to get an MFA. I have a BA in English and a Master's in Education, the latter being a career choice motivated mainly by people telling me I'd never make any money if I went to grad school for English. Well hardy har har because most of my career has been all about my ability to write and fix other peoples' writing, so maybe the MFA would have been a fine move. Who knows?

If I did it now it would be totally a labor of love. I imagine I'd love it for the same reason I love hanging out here with so many of you: I'm a writer and I like being around other writers. I'm sure I'd be less enchanted with the cutthroat competitiveness at many of these places. As I've often said here, I never consider myself in competition with anyone but me, and I find all the drama related to some others' need to compete to be a distraction. Any of us will be published or we won't, right? I don't write because I'm motivated to be published and I don't understand people who do. I'm certainly not against conventional success, but this is poetry after all. Success in poetry for me means I wrote a good poem...

I did some teaching in Iowa City and worked with a lot of people who were (or had been) in the Writers Workshop there. They were all very nice and mostly really smart and funny, but I know from a lot of academic experience that when people feel pitted against one another it all gets a little too Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf for me.

I have toyed with the idea of an MFA from the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University in Colorado. They have a low-residence requirement MFA program in creative writing and I like the people associated with the school. I think you only have to actually live there for three months, parts of which you can complete by attending their summer writing festival. (See, I really have thought about this!) Also, they used to (maybe still do) offer a fellowship in Ted Berrigan's name and, being he is one of my poetry gods, I do like to fantasize about applying for and receiving that.

Until reality floods in again. Eagleyez and I have four kids between us, three of whom are currently in college. And the fourth will be there in another year. So I kinda need to win the lottery before I can go for another degree for myself.

Sorry for the rambling. One of those kind of days for me.

Geez.

You aren't alone, here, Angie. I've been thinking seriously about an MFA, especially at a low-residence program (though, sorry, not Naropa, though I might actually consider it if you and Foolie were there. We could drink together and cheat on tests. ).

I'd love to get an MFA because, first of all, I want a master's degree in something. (This is a personal hangup and not relevant to the value of MFAs in general.) I'd like to think that an MFA might ("might") make me a better writer. That's the object.

Low residency programs make the most sense. I mean, if I was lucky enough to get selected for the University of Washington MFA program, that's a two dollar bus ride from my house.

I might apply, but that isn't going to happen.

I'm looking at various low residency programs, ones that are kind of near me. Goddard, Pacific, Pacific Lutheran. I'm kind of curious about UTEP, which has no residency requirement.

I don't know. I sometimes think I should just save the cash and buy a Lexus. Probably would end up meaning the same thing.

Anyway. I hope what you want, somehow obtains.

 

[bronzeage]

One of the books I'm reading right now is Donald Hall's (onetime Poet Laureate of the USA) memoir of his life in poetry, Unpacking the Boxes. There is a line in this book (and I'm really sorry I can't find it right now) that basically says the same thing.

Didn't really work for me, though. But then I wasn't "serious" about being a poet in high school.

This book (and this conversation topic) makes me wish I was.

Anyone who thinks it's difficult to ask a girl to dance never gave a poem to a girl when she was standing with a group of her friends.

It's a very tricky maneuver.

 

[Angeline]

Geez.

You aren't alone, here, Angie. I've been thinking seriously about an MFA, especially at a low-residence program (though, sorry, not Naropa, though I might actually consider it if you and Foolie were there. We could drink together and cheat on tests. ).

I'd love to get an MFA because, first of all, I want a master's degree in something. (This is a personal hangup and not relevant to the value of MFAs in general.) I'd like to think that an MFA might ("might") make me a better writer. That's the object.

Low residency programs make the most sense. I mean, if I was lucky enough to get selected for the University of Washington MFA program, that's a two dollar bus ride from my house.

I might apply, but that isn't going to happen.

I'm looking at various low residency programs, ones that are kind of near me. Goddard, Pacific, Pacific Lutheran. I'm kind of curious about UTEP, which has no residency requirement.

I don't know. I sometimes think I should just save the cash and buy a Lexus. Probably would end up meaning the same thing.

Anyway. I hope what you want, somehow obtains.

Between the three of us, I bet we could ace that program. Anyway I doubt your poetry would suffer a whit were a Lexus added to the equation.

Anyone who thinks it's difficult to ask a girl to dance never gave a poem to a girl when she was standing with a group of her friends.

It's a very tricky maneuver.

eagleyez wrote me poems and I've been with him almost nine years now as a result. But there weren't any other girls hanging around when he did.

 

[bronzeage]

eagleyez wrote me poems and I've been with him almost nine years now as a result. But there weren't any other girls hanging around when he did.

Every once in awhile, I open one of those old notebooks and thumb through the brittle pages. I am amazed at the crisp penmanship, but I cringe at the words.

 

[ninianne]

What I've here highlighted is, I think, the real attraction of the MFA. It's what we all want here as well--thoughtful, competent, and honest feedback on our writing. Part of the value of an MFA program is the instruction by someone who has "been successful" (however that is defined) in the art, but a larger part is in interacting with other people who are equally serious about your art and who will (again, honestly) comment on one's work. A writer needs other people to tell him or her how he/she is doing in order to not simply be indulging in logomasturbation.

When I first started writing seriously, the first thing I looked for was an audience. I have notebook upon notebook of crap I worked on as a teen, but I knew those weren't worth the paper and pencils they used up. What helped my writing was joining an online community of writers I trusted. When they liked my writing, it made me want to impress again. When they didn't and had a legitimate reason . . . it made me want to write better.

Because there was a mechanism for reviews, I learned how to look at my own and other people's writing analytically.

At the same time, I was working as a technical writer for the IT department at the university (yes, I've never had a real job that actually paid a salary except at the university). I discovered that when I got home at night, I was sick of writing--that I didn't want to set down at my computer and work on the fun stuff.

And so I decided to go back to school. Because I knew I loved writing, I decided that's what I wanted to do. It's been fun.

I'm actually on my second Master's program. When I was all but thesis at my first school, I started getting sick. I went home to finish my thesis, and let things lapse--and then, about four years ago, I contracted Type 1 diabetes--which was so tiring for a long time I didn't want to write. But after a year or so of getting my feet back under me, I went back.

New school, new program, new people--a long time later. But this time I need to finish. I'm tired of not being finished. I watched my little sister graduate with a MFA in piano performance (talk about useless degrees--but she actually makes good money playing weddings) while I was recovering from the diagnosis.

I've probably said this before (geez, I hope not in this thread--that would make my senior moments a bit too obvious), but I used to be a partner in a bookstore specializing in mystery fiction. At least two of the authors we hosted events for had MFAs from the Iowa Writer's Workshop, the crème de la crème of university writing programs. Both said that, while their interest was in detective fiction, they only wrote literary fiction in the program, as anything genre was, well, basically peed on.
I have heard that too.

I figure that if I learn to write literary fiction well, it can only help my writing of commercial fiction. In my program, the poets are the ones who insist it's all about the art--they would starve before writing something that appealed to the public. The fiction writers have a slightly better concept of reality (at least, I think so) acknowledging that they would rather make money than please the critics. At least, by an informal survey in the workshop at the beginning of the semester.

PS: don't give up on me. I actually am totally busy this semester. I'm teaching two sections of freshman comp and taking 12 graduate hours. Right now, I have a stack of about 18 rewrites of the first writing assignment, the second writing assignment (I have 47 students) is due Tuesday. I also have an 8-10 page paper due on Monday (office hours in the morning, and then class from 1-4) as well as a proposal for my second major project in that class. Tuesdays are my long days--I teach at 8 and 11:20, have office hours from 1:30 to 3:30, have a class from 4-5, a meeting 5-5:30, and workshop from 5:30-8:30pm. Thursdays, I have the two classes I teach, then I have a class from 1-4. I barely have time to sleep let alone get on the internet.

But I enjoy the discussions here--I like talking poetry, even when I half don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Tzara]

Anyone who thinks it's difficult to ask a girl to dance never gave a poem to a girl when she was standing with a group of her friends.

It's a very tricky maneuver.

Anyone who thinks it's difficult to ask a girl to dance doesn't get to the point of giving a poem to his chosen one while she's standing with a group of her friends.

He's lurking back in a corner trying to figure out why bronze is dancing with what he thinks of as "his" girl and cursing the fact he wears glasses.

 

[Tzara]

Between the three of us, I bet we could ace that program. Anyway I doubt your poetry would suffer a whit were a Lexus added to the equation.

Actually, I prefer my Volvo, even if it is now a Chinese company.

The thing's got air bags even under my butt, I think. I nick a parking meter and I'm cocooned.

eagleyez wrote me poems and I've been with him almost nine years now as a result. But there weren't any other girls hanging around when he did.

When your lover is staring only into your eyes, it doesn't matter if there is anyone else around.

 

[Angeline]

Actually, I prefer my Volvo, even if it is now a Chinese company.

The thing's got air bags even under my butt, I think. I nick a parking meter and I'm cocooned.

When your lover is staring only into your eyes, it doesn't matter if there is anyone else around.

Very true.