The poetry way

[hmmnmm]

moonlit charcoal crow
jack frosted panties billow
window wide open

 

[lorencino]

Mirrored water -- a bit awkward English (to me); you are saying, I guess, that the water surface acts like a mirror. But we know it.

surface tension -- "tension" is rather abstract; I cannot see that "surface tension", how do I? It is not a vivid image to me at all. It rather sounds to me like... zillion of poems;

holds no reflection -- negation here is not something concrete; it's more vivid to give the specific things which do happen, which can be seen rather than what we do not see. It is not any iron rule, not at all, but this negative phrase doesn't sound poetic to me. And its English once again is strained, artificial (am I right?).

All together, this 3-liner seems to me forced. Despite an attempt at the image it still sounds to me like "talk". One should really provide a truly true scene, or you should fool me. But here I have a feeling that you are trying to be intellectual. The composition is not convincing: first you are saying "mirrored", and then that there is no reflection. You are trying to impose on us a view (tension kills the reflection?), instead of presenting raw image or scene, and let us (the readers) do the thinking on our own if we feel so inclined.

Please, do not feel that I am "attacking". I am grateful for your post. Best regards,

Strictly speaking mirrored water means water reflected in a mirror

surface tension creates a very vivid image in my head of crowds of molecules (with big heads) holding hands and pulling themselves towards each other to form a dense and determined skin. Besides the image I also experience the feeling of the pulling my hands in towards my chest as though I were a molecule on the imagined surface. (This may have something to do with the fact that I took physics and chemistry rather than biology.

So for me there is something meaningful in the first two lines and I just need a third line that clinches the deal. The current third line looks like an interloper that came to rest where it did not belong.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Strictly speaking mirrored water means water reflected in a mirror

Yes. However, how do you integrate the meaning of the whole poem in such a case? And there are other meanings which English wise are almost as good: water, which is adorned by mirror like a soldier who is given a medal (a decorated soldier).

surface tension creates a very vivid image in my head of crowds of molecules (with big heads) holding hands and pulling themselves towards each other to form a dense and determined skin.

You call it vivid, but it's not a real image, passed on to us by the author, but it is something, which you (not the author) quite arbitrarily made up (arbitrarily from the point of view of poetry). It's not a sensual image.

Besides the image I also experience the feeling of the pulling my hands in towards my chest as though I were a molecule on the imagined surface. (This may have something to do with the fact that I took physics and chemistry rather than biology).

I didn't take any extra courses in biology either (my ex is a biologist though, and we have authored one presentation at a research meeting together; also, when you work on image processing then you deal with biology again, especially in the case of environmental or military applications; I had only one or two semesters of physics at the university but I did research on statistical mechanics--google my name and ferromagnetic or "phase transition" or Slawny). Richard Feynman, in his famous lectures and elsewhere, opposes a simplistic view that a scientist doesn't see things around in a poetic way. Feynman's claim is that his knowledge of physics only enriches and enhances his artistic experience. But it's not that simple either. I would have to write a separate essay to give justice to this issue.

The image which you, lorencino (not the author), have presented would take some doing and talent to turn into an image which could match the nature images from good poetry.

So for me there is something meaningful in the first two lines and I just need a third line that clinches the deal. The current third line looks like an interloper that came to rest where it did not belong.

The author tried to tell us, I guess, that tension kills reflection. But it hangs arbitrarily in the thin air, it's not convincing. The text is pretty abstract, while, in poetry, the goal is to induce such abstractions in the reader by providing a concrete, symbolic non-abstract case. (The crow and the frog were not abstract, not at all, while tension, non-optical reflection, ... molecules, ... are abstract).

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

What makes it logic?

Oh, well, let's agree to disagree . Welcome back!

 

[champagne1982]

Oh, well, let's agree to disagree . Welcome back!

Ok and thanks for the halloooos <edited away>

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Oh no I don't think that at all I want to learn ... will have another go next week. Thankyou so much for showing me the way takes a while to sink in here !

 

[twelveoone]

When a poem admits multiple interpretations then, in the haiku world, we say that this poem is suggestive (which is a good think). It is worthwhile in such a context to consider the more detailed notions: interpretation, association, provocation.

Thank, you Senna.
1 question - what do you consider a hostile atmosphere?

questions?
Pointing out the possibility of flaws in some of your statements? Or some degree of disagreement?

 

[twelveoone]

Poetry requires a high ratio of artistic weight per word or per item

Would you elaborate? Saying artisitic weight in effect is saying nothing.
Lead.

Almost on a par with saying something is inspirational.

 

[twelveoone]

Mirrored water
surface tension
holds no reflection.

Am I doing this right?

Mirrored surface
tension
holds no reflection

not sure about holds or surface

let's try
surface mirrored
tension
holds no reflection.

not a concreate thing is sight (I love it), however, Senna would be right in that it leads the reader too quickly. (remember Senna, my statement about leading the reader, I meant leading the reader to possibilities, what was your term SJ, pathetic ? One of two or three cheap shots taken)

Otherwise a well written thread, with enough thoughtful caveats to please even me.
Welcome back!
Now let's clear up this hostile atmosphere thing. We all have a thing or two to learn, eh?

 

[Tathagata]

Mirrored surface
tension
holds no reflection

not sure about holds or surface

let's try
surface mirrored
tension
holds no reflection.

Otherwise a well written thread, with enough thoughtful caveats to please even me.
Welcome back!
Now let's clear up this hostile atmosphere thing. We all have a thing or two to learn, eh?

this is an old idea/ argument;




The body is the tree of enlightenment,
The mind like a clear mirror stand;
Time and gain wipe it diligently,
Don’t let it gather dust.

- Shenxiu


Enlightenment is basically not a tree,
And the clear mirror is not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing -
Where can dust collect.

- Huineng, Sixth Zen Patriarch in China


bad poetry i'm sure
but honest and cutting to the bone

 

[twelveoone]

this is an old idea/ argument;





Enlightenment is basically not a tree,
And the clear mirror is not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing -
Where can dust collect.

- Huineng, Sixth Zen Patriarch in China


bad poetry i'm sure
but honest and cutting to the bone

looks like an arguement for abstraction

hiho silver and away
leaves in a cloud of dust

What does he mean by leaves

 

[twelveoone]

if the world is an illusion
my brick is not really here

- (Zen master)Krazy Kat

 

[UnderYourSpell]

What I was trying to convey was that although there is surface tension it's not strong enough to hold a reflection as when the frog jumps in you get a reflection broken into circles

 

[Tathagata]

looks like an arguement for abstraction

hiho silver and away
leaves in a cloud of dust

What does he mean by leaves

the pages of his bartenders guide were scattered in the wind?

what is meant by he?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

the pages of his bartenders guide were scattered in the wind?

what is meant by he?

Or he he?

 

[Tathagata]

if the world is an illusion
my brick is not really here

- (Zen master)Krazy Kat

if the world is an illusion
there are no bricks to be had

Gung Dar Hoi - Drunken Monkey Gung Fu

 

[wildsweetone]

What I was trying to convey was that although there is surface tension it's not strong enough to hold a reflection as when the frog jumps in you get a reflection broken into circles

how about something like


frog dives
corrugated reflection




the reflection is still there, but it's not the expected 'mirror' reflection.

i don't think it is haiku to have 'mirrored' and 'reflection' in the same ku.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Less is more I have to take out rather than put in. It's very tempting to put in too much and not leave it to the imagination so afraid that nobody will see what I am trying to say! I mean like is 'Rainbowed droplets' too much?

 

[wildsweetone]

Less is more I have to take out rather than put in. It's very tempting to put in too much and not leave it to the imagination so afraid that nobody will see what I am trying to say! I mean like is 'Rainbowed droplets' too much?

if you want to write Haiku in the traditional way then check out any of the How to Haiku submissions by jthserra
if you want to write Haiku in the modern way, then i think pretty much anything goes so long as the 5-7-5 syllable count is kept.


Senna, i apologise for my diversion of your thread.

let's see... 'let go' [of the rules?] you say...

on humid summer days
silent birds sit
in shadowless trees


hmm not sure i managed that one.

 

[Senna Jawa]

if you want to write Haiku in the modern way, then i think pretty much anything goes so long as the 5-7-5 syllable count is kept.

Amazing how untrue this is, absolutely false, each part of it.

Senna, i apologise for my diversion of your thread.

(Why?!). Not at all! This is a discussion forum and a discussion thread.

on humid summer days
silent birds sit
in shadowless trees


​

Pretty good but it doesn't feel quite right:

... adjective adjective ... ....
adjective ... ...
... adjective ...
​

Forget 5-7-5, it's not important in English.

Your haiku will gain if you remove "on" at the start. With "on" it sounds like a general rule. Without "on" it's not a generalization anymore but a simple statement of the circumstances.

Variation:

humid --
birds hide in the trees
a cloud crowds another
​

(I have here anthropomorphisms: hide and crowds -- anthropomorphisms, preferably, should be avoided, as a general rule).

Best regards,

 

[wildsweetone]

Amazing how untrue this is, absolutely false, each part of it. i have so much to learn!
(Why?!). Not at all! This is a discussion forum and a discussion thread. good point. again.



Pretty good but it doesn't feel quite right:

... adjective adjective ... ....
adjective ... ...
... adjective ...
​

Forget 5-7-5, it's not important in English.

Your haiku will gain if you remove "on" at the start. With "on" it sounds like a general rule. Without "on" it's not a generalization anymore but a simple statement of the circumstances.

Variation:

humid --
birds hide in the trees
a cloud crowds another
​

(I have here anthropomorphisms: hide and crowds -- anthropomorphisms, preferably, should be avoided, as a general rule).

Best regards,

'on humid summer days
silent birds sit
in shadowless trees'


humidity
silent birds sit
in a shadowless tree

humidity
birds sit
in a shadowless tree.

ho hum. i need years of practising this.

humidity -
birds in a shadowless tree

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

'on humid summer days
silent birds sit
in shadowless trees'


humidity
silent birds sit
in a shadowless tree

humidity
birds sit
in a shadowless tree.

ho hum. i need years of practising this.

humidity -
birds in a shadowless tree

Humid summer
birds sit
shadowless

Oy - it goes on and on...................

 

[wildsweetone]

Humid summer
birds sit
shadowless

Oy - it goes on and on...................

is 'sit' an anthropomorphism? birds don't 'sit' per se, they stand, i think.

and is 'humid' and 'summer' using two words for the same season?

see i don't know... just asking.

i like the switch from the tree being shadowless to the birds being shadowless.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

is 'sit' an anthropomorphism? birds don't 'sit' per se, they stand, i think.

and is 'humid' and 'summer' using two words for the same season?

see i don't know... just asking.

i like the switch from the tree being shadowless to the birds being shadowless.

(............anthropomorphisms, preferably, should be avoided, as a general rule).

Why? Aren't they frequently used in, what is generally accepted, as good poetry?

 

[Angeline]

Humid summer
birds sit
shadowless

Oy - it goes on and on...................

I think as long as the birds aren't humid, it's all good. That's maybe too much personification.