the problem with D/s and free flowing conversation

[ataxia.girl]

Seriously though, is there like a take-away here?

Take away is u have made a little mess and now u are going to have to fix it and probably its going to take awhile.

People can still love, serve, and be completely devoted to you without agreeing with everything you say\think. If you want to know what they think you're going to have to learn to be okay with that.

 

[Netzach]

Devil's advocacy:

Can someone love and serve you without you having to know everything they think?

I'm totally assuming that there are things that H positively hates about me. I know I've had horrible moments of weakness for which he could legitimately take me to task any day. He knows I know. I know he knows.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Devil's advocacy:

Can someone love and serve you without you having to know everything they think?

I'm totally assuming that there are things that H positively hates about me. I know I've had horrible moments of weakness for which he could legitimately take me to task any day. He knows I know. I know he knows.

"Having" as in you as the D need it to know or "having" as in a burden to have to know?

i cannot speak from the D perspective but from my end i need to feel like what i think is accessible to Daddy, i do not need Him to know everything. i do need Him to be capable of carrying the burden when it arises yes.

In no way do i want to feel i am protecting Him from my thoughts. If my thoughts are going to cause him to get His feelings hurt or lose His temper i am not the right one for Him.

He can tell me to "be quiet" or "don't complain honey" and i have zero problem complying. There is an honesty and transparency there that is different from telling me never to say such and such or to punish me for disagreeing in a way that makes me fear expressing myself in the future.

Should a D need to know what a sub is thinking every minute. i don't think so unless that happens to be their thing.

i don't think a D HAS to know everything a sub thinks unless they want that type of dynamic and what goes with it. Its okay not to want that or need that.

 

[ataxia.girl]

For the record i don't think the OP's problem is specifically an M/s problem, its just a relationship problem. Some people can be really exhausting to talk to because they are so intense all the time. One defense mechanism is to stop caring about anything they care about to avoid conflict. My biological father and i are both like this. i have tempered as i have gotten older but he never has. i avoid most conversation with him because it just makes me too tired.

 

[Anne_Prospere]

I know he likes deep intimate long conversations as much as I do. One of the things that brought me to him was how satisfying our conversations were, a lot of our relationship was spent on the phone in the beginning.

I think yes, it is possible to love and serve someone without that level of intimacy and interaction.

I do not think it is possible for me.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I know I've had horrible moments of weakness for which he could legitimately take me to task any day. He knows I know. I know he knows.

Ahhh yes... i too have a very specific thing i choose to ignore and make no issue of. i will continue to do so.

 

[Netzach]

Don't most relationships talk themselves into a frenzy in the first months and then settle into "Hi. What's for dinner? Turn on Jon Stewart. I wanna screw, how's Thursday night for you?"

 

[ataxia.girl]

I know he likes deep intimate long conversations as much as I do. One of the things that brought me to him was how satisfying our conversations were, a lot of our relationship was spent on the phone in the beginning.

I think yes, it is possible to love and serve someone without that level of intimacy and interaction.

I do not think it is possible for me.

This sounds a lot like my husband and i. We talked for hours and hours the first few years. We then went through a long slump where it was just.... difficult to recapture the shared enthusiasm for a topic.

Be patient. It can help to try and find a new interest together. i've always been a reader and have often been the catalyst for us to reconnect intellectually by picking up a new book and telling him about it.

Don't give up and don't worry too much if it doesn't get fixed immediately.

 

[Netzach]

Ahhh yes... i too have a very specific thing i choose to ignore and make no issue of. i will continue to do so.

Right. It's a case of cost/benefit analysis I think. There are things I'd change in an ideal world about ALL my relationships. It's not, so I look at what I do get out of them and as long as it's a substantial enough list, some things just aren't worth nitpicking.

 

[Netzach]

This sounds a lot like my husband and i. We talked for hours and hours the first few years. We then went through a long slump where it was just.... difficult to recapture the shared enthusiasm for a topic.

Be patient. It can help to try and find a new interest together. i've always been a reader and have often been the catalyst for us to reconnect intellectually by picking up a new book and telling him about it.

Don't give up and don't worry too much if it doesn't get fixed immediately.

I find it's more sporadic. Sometimes we have these stretches of time where there's a lot of good conversation. Also sometimes lack of conversational fire means it's a great night to go do your own respective things altogether. Now that M has a boyfriend he stays with a night a week ususally I find that the day *after* that is very intense and connected. Obviously, it's not necessary that he go have a boyfriend, but it might be a good night to go out oneself or just be out of ear/eyeshot.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Don't most relationships talk themselves into a frenzy in the first months and then settle into "Hi. What's for dinner? Turn on Jon Stewart. I wanna screw, how's Thursday night for you?"

To a degree i think this is true. my hubby and i are both thinkers though and so it does come back when we find something worth talking about. The hard times are when one or both of us really want that connection and for whatever reason we just can't get on the same wavelength. Its frustrating because you can remember when it was all so easy.

i think you can learn to appreciate it when its there and not sweat it too much when it isn't though if you are patient. It is important to continue to try and inject new content into that part of your dynamic but i also don't think you can force it to much.

 

[Netzach]

To a degree i think this is true. my hubby and i are both thinkers though and so it does come back when we find something worth talking about. The hard times are when one or both of us really want that connection and for whatever reason we just can't get on the same wavelength. Its frustrating because you can remember when it was all so easy.

i think you can learn to appreciate it when its there and not sweat it too much when it isn't though if you are patient. It is important to continue to try and inject new content into that part of your dynamic but i also don't think you can force it to much.

Sounds about right. We're both introverts, but M is much further on that spectrum than I am. The nights when I know my mere existence is annoying to him are tough, but I've learned not to take them personally. As annoying as I may be, anyone else would be more so.

 

[ataxia.girl]

The nights when I know my mere existence is annoying to him are tough, but I've learned not to take them personally.

And that is one of the things i look for in a Daddy. Because i am not my own person and my ego so tenuous and dependent on others i look for someone who is strong enough to take me at my worst without getting hurt and still love and care for me.

my Daddy is like this. He takes from me what He wants and is not hurt or angered that i sometimes don't even like him. i need that. Sometimes i need to say "i hate you" or "i don't like you" or 'go away" and be dealt with on that childish a level.

i think it hurts His feelings when i say those things about as much as it hurts my feelings when my five year old says them to me. That is how NOT seriously i need to be taken and yet still very valued and treasured just as a child should be.

 

[Zoots_owner]

i don't think a D HAS to know everything a sub thinks unless they want that type of dynamic and what goes with it. Its okay not to want that or need that.

Yeah, it all boils down to what the PYL wants, and what works for the parties concerned.

As for me, I consider anything less than full transparency to be tantamount to betrayal. Holding back on feelings or opinions would be a direct violation of a fundamental standing order. I DO want to know everything, unless it's trivial and unimportant. I can't love or trust people who I don't know, and find communication to be a much quicker route to knowledge than observation of behavior alone. But that's just me...

Having proclaimed my extreme bias on the subject, I'd add my opinion that, if open and honest communication is annoying, there are probably some angles that need work.

But, like I said, I take the most radical stance possible on this subject, so YMMV.

 

[ataxia.girl]

As for me, I consider anything less than full transparency to be tantamount to betrayal. Holding back on feelings or opinions would be a direct violation of a fundamental standing order. I DO want to know everything, unless it's trivial and unimportant. I can't love or trust people who I don't know, and find communication to be a much quicker route to knowledge than observation of behavior alone. But that's just me...

And that is great as long as you can handle whatever is expressed.

 

[kinkyknickers]

I talk too much. Got told that at the weekend lol.

We were talking at the local munch this weekend, and it was said that a Dom never wants a sub to be compliant to the point where they don't have their own mind. They're still their own person with feelings and attitudes, and they still want them to feel free to express that.

Yeah............ I wouldn't be so sure that's a blanket rule. Sounds like a bit of PC Dom bullshit to me.
When it comes down to it the Dom still has the power to veto any action which may come as a result of the sub's feelings or thoughts. So it stands to reason, some subs would give up expressing their opinions due to learned behavior patterns, especially if they have had negative repercussions in the past.

 

[Netzach]

And that is one of the things i look for in a Daddy. Because i am not my own person and my ego so tenuous and dependent on others i look for someone who is strong enough to take me at my worst without getting hurt and still love and care for me.

my Daddy is like this. He takes from me what He wants and is not hurt or angered that i sometimes don't even like him. i need that. Sometimes i need to say "i hate you" or "i don't like you" or 'go away" and be dealt with on that childish a level.

i think it hurts His feelings when i say those things about as much as it hurts my feelings when my five year old says them to me. That is how NOT seriously i need to be taken and yet still very valued and treasured just as a child should be.

I've kind of got a 15 year old in that sense.

 

[Zoots_owner]

And that is great as long as you can handle whatever is expressed.

Yeah, I can.

On the other hand, when a pyl once held back from me in a big way, and went secretive on me, I soon dragged her off to a desolate spot, carrying the first collar I'd given her, a lighter, and some gasoline. She could either get honest with me, or I was going to torch her collar and cut her loose.

If there's anything I've learned from talking to other BDSM people, it's that we're all different.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Yeah............ I wouldn't be so sure that's a blanket rule. Sounds like a bit of PC Dom bullshit to me.
When it comes down to it the Dom still has the power to veto any action which may come as a result of the sub's feelings or thoughts. So it stands to reason, some subs would give up expressing their opinions due to learned behavior patterns, especially if they have had negative repercussions in the past.

Exactly and i think this can happen in basically any relationship where one person is just more Dominant. Out there IRL i can be a real scary little bitch. Lots of people at work are afraid to talk to me or ask me questions even because i have such a reputation for making people feel stupid. i have to be really careful and watch how i react and when i do react strongly make sure to let the other person know i am not upset with them but with the situation in general and am just reacting a bit strongly to it and make sure they know they can always come to me for help in the future.

my first love was very domineering. He felt so strongly about everything and made me feel so awful and exhausted when i didn't agree with him that i just stopped disagreeing. It was easier. But then he would say he didn't want a doormat, he wanted someone who could hold there own

Well.... i could hold my own with everyone but him. Did that make me an uninteresting doormat? i don't think so.

Also i was just so in love with him that really was the only thing on my mind all the time. It was difficult to engage and get excited about much else. He's trying to talk to me about politics and whatever and i just couldn't care less.

i wanted to please him but because i was so wrapped up in him i couldn't actually do that. If you want to please someone more than anything else in the world at that point you really aren't very independent. If to please them they need you to be independent a disconnect can grow. You are so oriented to them that they can barely see where they end and you begin but what they want is something wholly other than themselves (or what they think they want).

i dunno... its a tricky problem.

Reminds me of one of the stories in "The Joy Luck Club". The independent college girl falls in love with rich prep guy. He likes her for her independence. She loves him so much she loses her independence in trying to please him. Her love transforms her into exactly the opposite of what he fell in love with.

 

[Sqoodd]

naturally, i have no desire to ever argue with my Master. but his idea of an argument, and my idea of an argument, are quite different. what he means when he says he does not wish for me to argue with him, is that he does not wish to hear any disagreement or opposing viewpoint on any topic, unless he has directly asked for said opinion. sounds simple enough, but by nature i am what he calls a "contrary" person. so we could be having the most meaningless and casual of conversations, he might look up at the sky and mention how it's going to storm soon and before even thinking about it i'll mention how i heard it's going to be calm weather all day. this is being contrary, argumentative, and he hates it. but for whatever reason, while it has been stifled quite a bit, i have been unable to completely do away with this particular habit..

As a Dom, I would see it as a chance to be proven right again in front of my femsub. After a few times of being right, she hopefully would get the hint to trust me and the things I say.
I will repeat from earlier in this thread, I do not want a mindless piece of sexy meat. I want a sub that has opinions, but knows the place and time to express them openly.
I have told my sub to tell me how she is feeling so I can plan accordingly. Several times, she said she was tired, she went to bed (with my permission) and I stayed online.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Though I'm afraid I'm getting tangential to the topic here, I had a question. I find the concept of "obedience vs. transparency" both useful and precise. Thanks for that differentiation.

Do y'all feel that some of it is a factor of the length of relationship? When I'm first familiarizing myself with someone, particularly a sub, I DO want to know exactly where their head is, especially during play. How can I drive the car effectively if I can't feel its responses or don't have accurate feedback?

But then perhaps later, once you know the machinery pretty well, obedience becomes more appropriate. Since you know then what the REAL feedback would be, hearing "if it pleases you" at that point becomes more appealing.

Just a theory. What are your thoughts?

bj

 

[ecstaticsub]

Though I'm afraid I'm getting tangential to the topic here, I had a question. I find the concept of "obedience vs. transparency" both useful and precise. Thanks for that differentiation.

Do y'all feel that some of it is a factor of the length of relationship? When I'm first familiarizing myself with someone, particularly a sub, I DO want to know exactly where their head is, especially during play. How can I drive the car effectively if I can't feel its responses or don't have accurate feedback?

But then perhaps later, once you know the machinery pretty well, obedience becomes more appropriate. Since you know then what the REAL feedback would be, hearing "if it pleases you" at that point becomes more appealing.

Just a theory. What are your thoughts?

bj

Interesting question. In the beginning of our relationship I tended to be rather intimidated, sort of a healthy fear of diappointing him so I kept things to myself. I could ask his premission to speak freely and in that allotted time I could say anything I wanted (respectfully of course) but say it without fear of saying something wrong or the wrong way. This is my first and only D/s relationship while he has had many subs before me. I always felt better writing it in IM or email then speaking out loud to him.

Fast forward over 3 yrs to now. We had a discussion about 3 months ago about a topic that really upset me and which he and I disagreed completely. Actually it wasn't the topic itself that upset me it was his opinion of it. I wanted to totally drop the subject and never discuss it again but he insisted on going on. I ended up using my safeword, which didn't really apply to the situation but was the only way I could think to convey to him how serious I took our difference of opinion. He said fine, but that I would after a few days of cooling down need to explain to him why it bothered me so much. I figured out that what upset me the most was the simple fact that I so disagreed with him. Up to that point we would agree on everything except maybe very minor issues. He didn't insist that I agree with him, but every once in a while the topic comes up in bits and pieces again to be discussed. He in very interested in why I think what I do about any topic.

So I guess that was a long way of saying that the way we handle conversation--whether minor or major disagreements have changed over the years. I am still respectful but I have learned that he really does want my opinion when he gets into certain moods. Though he really wants me to honestly change my opinion to agree with him...but I won't do that unless I really have changed my mind. I know he wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[Sir Victor]

"you never talk to me"


I hear various versions of this statement often. It is not untrue, and I feel badly about it but I can not seem to get over this inability to have a lot of free flow conversation with my Dom.

I do not like to tell him what I am thinking, I tend to keep our conversations to his job, sex, and whatever happens to be on his mind at the time.

It wasnt always this way, but the better we got to know one another, the more we struggled to just talk. He has become aware of my idiosyncrasies in our time together and often our conversations are peppered with criticisms of the way I speak to him, what I talk about, my sincerity.. among many.. many other things.

It is hard to imagine over coming this, it seems as though we are destined to communicate less and less with our interaction consisting of his wishes, and my agreement.

what do you want for dinner?
whatever you want Sir.

What do you want to do this weekend?
whatever you want Sir.

Do you like the color green?
I dont know, what do you think of green, Sir?

Is this just something I should accept and seek out back and forth conversation with outside people instead?

I feel as though he wants to hear my thoughts.. but only if I am thinking what he is thinking.. what do you think?

Does your Dom not use a protocol? Something like this for example:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=18395676&postcount=2

This is close to what I find works best.

 

[Adakgirl]

"you never talk to me"


I hear various versions of this statement often. It is not untrue, and I feel badly about it but I can not seem to get over this inability to have a lot of free flow conversation with my Dom.

I do not like to tell him what I am thinking, I tend to keep our conversations to his job, sex, and whatever happens to be on his mind at the time.

It wasnt always this way, but the better we got to know one another, the more we struggled to just talk. He has become aware of my idiosyncrasies in our time together and often our conversations are peppered with criticisms of the way I speak to him, what I talk about, my sincerity.. among many.. many other things.

Not all of us have the ability to have a lot of conversation...of any type, free flowing or not. As others here have said, when a relationship is new, you don't know very much about each other, so likes, dislikes, opinions, ideas are easily expressed by both parties and a lot of free flowing convo will naturally arise from that kind of expression. It doesn't have the boundaries put in place yet, that might develop later on in the relationship, and it lacks the comfortable familiarity of a long time relationship.

So it is a special kind of communication it's new, its fresh... holds excitement, anticipation, fun, wonderment, satisfaction and acceptance. You really only get that once, at the very beginning, in the original discovery phase. It's like a secret treasure hunt within each others minds.
Expecting to get that unique kind of communication after you come to know each other is setting yourself up for disappointment, it will only happen in the first months/yr of a relationship. Then it will settle in to either good or bad communication, or a combo of the two.

You do not LIKE to tell him what you are thinking because he criticizes your thoughts, questions why you even thinking the way you think and does not even like the way you express what you are thinking. On top of all that, (which in my opinion is not acceptable behavior on his part at all) when you do tell him what you are thinking, he doubts your sincerity, in other words, he thinks your not telling him what you REALLy think, but what you want him to hear. That you don't mean what you say, you are not saying what you think.

No wonder you don't want to tell him what you think anymore, for cripes sakes, when facing such criticisms... who would? I would struggle to talk to him as well if he constantly put me down like that. I can understand why your communication has broken down like it has. In my opinion he has inadvertently negatively "trained" you to react to this by clamming up. He has caused you to keep your thoughts to yourself because whenever you express them you are bombarded with negativity and nonacceptance from him. We all need acceptance, we have to have it from our partners in order to feel loved and maintain intimacy.

Your relationship is breaking down simultaneously with your communication break down. I suggest you both get counseling on couple communication asap before this situation becomes unresolvable. I can tell it is already becoming almost unbearable for you both. D/s M/s no matter what kind of relationship you have, if you can't communicate freely and have lost the ability to express your thoughts to your loved one...everything else, the sex, the work, your everyday lives together will lose all meaning and end up empty.