The Red H Debate (yeah, i know, AGAIN)

[Smuttyandfun]

Normally, I don't rate a story. For a new author who has done really well, I'll make an exception and give them a 5 and leave a comment to encourage them to keep writing. I never give anyone a 4. And I would never think about one bombing a story, even if I hated it. Because if it was really that bad, I would have stopped reading it pretty early on.

I have to admit, I like getting a coveted red H on my stories, because I know the readers will be more likely to read them. I notice red H's when I'm looking for a story to read, because I assume it'll be good. I know there a lot of really good stories that don't make the cut, and if I read a comment praising something, even if it's scored low, I'll read that, too.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Think about it this way:

An author posts a story.

Nine of his buddies vote on it, and one stranger, it earns a Red H at 4.5.

But only ten people read the thing.

Does that make it "Hot?" Not really.

Now, another author posts a story.

A thousand people read it, and almost all of them rate it a 4.

To me, that's a HOT story. Getting a thousand people to say they at least liked it seems a pretty damn good achievement.
.

Almost afraid to ask, but who the hell is getting a thousand votes?

 

[Djmac1031]

Almost afraid to ask, but who the hell is getting a thousand votes?

Not me. I'm lucky to get 100.

And that's my point.

A thousand votes would be an actual accomplishment WORTHY of a Red H.

I know it seems counterproductive because I'm actually arguing for a change that would eliminate almost all my own personal Red H's.

All I'm really trying to point out is how subjective it all is, and not to take that HOT label too seriously, whether it's us as an author receiving them, or us as a reader looking for a story.

 

[Smuttyandfun]

Almost afraid to ask, but who the hell is getting a thousand votes?

I have 176 submissions over five years, and only about a dozen of them have over a thousand votes. I'm sure some of the more popular authors have more, but I don't think that many readers bother to vote, even if they really like a story.

 

[Euphony]

Think about it this way:

An author posts a story.

Nine of his buddies vote on it, and one stranger, it earns a Red H at 4.5.

But only ten people read the thing.

Does that make it "Hot?" Not really.

Now, another author posts a story.

A thousand people read it, and almost all of them rate it a 4.

To me, that's a HOT story. Getting a thousand people to say they at least liked it seems a pretty damn good achievement.
.

I see the logic but also those friends fluffing the score to a 4.5 gets A LOT more reads of the story as, even though most of us authors know better, many readers set the bar at Red H or above or not worth my time.

So that buoyed 4.5 could generate double or triple the reads and it's the same damn story it ever was.

Control what we can control, what we write. The readership is probably intractable even if someone were willing/able to devote the resources to a more representative overhaul.

Maybe it's my own nature which allows for my viewpoint but many of us have toiled away at our writing craziness for decades and having any light shone on it/interaction is well more than we are used to.

I've no qualms with those who write for scores/interaction but I simply cannot imagine how one makes that the motivation engine for all the effort and crafting it takes to materialize a work.

Add on you quickly learn how just how unsteady voting/reads end up being and you'd find you've build your foundation on unsuitable ground.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Anyone is free to ask Laural to remove the red Hs. But as to how the site is run, they don't seem that open to suggestions for change. Changing the voting systems is a coding issue.

 

[PrincessArianrhod]

To be honest, and I speak as a sensitive little flower who frets about low ratings, I'd rather have actual comments than votes; they're something of substance that has taken more time to post than a simple click. Be it good, bad or indifferent, it's a fragment of thought given as acknowledgement for your time and effort.

That said, red Hs exist and as long as they do, I'm going to covet the crap out of them.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I looked at AO3. That notwithstanding, I don't exactly know what the site is. It has videos, manga, cartoons, and some stories. But I get no sense poking my nose around what kind of site is. What is allowed there, and what is verboten?

AO3 has a rating system where you either leave kudos, reviews, or nothing. For reviews, the author can moderate the content- accept or reject it. There is no score system. I honestly think this system is better than Lit’s. I put a lot of work into my stories and it’s good not to get them one bombed or trolled (truth- I’ve only had to reject one review on AO3 so far and it pointed out an honest tagging mistake I corrected but it added nothing to the story so I still deleted the review).

At the same time I do see some merits in Lit’s review system. I like knowing I could do better. I don’t like that only one of my stories has the H but it does give me an aspiration. I think the majority of my other stories have the potential to earn the same award if the right people read and review them. It just hasn’t happened yet. More than that, though, I don’t like the shifting dynamics of the system. When does a 4 become a 5? What would it take for you to change your vote and make it higher? So many people seem to just click a score and move on. They don’t tell me what they liked and what they didn’t.

Also- Writers who have been 1-bombed here need to ask themselves- what if you got the reverse? What if some serious fans of your stories- say some major person as obsessed with certain celebrities as I am in my case- came along and 5 bombed your stories? Is this likely to happen? I try to write for those fans if I can, hoping they’ll show. They haven’t yet. Except maybe for my one hit wonder first time effort femslash of characters based on ScarJo, Rachel McAdams, and Keira Knightley “Fear, Lust & Vanity”. And for my femslash of characters based on other actresses Keri Russell, Alicia Witt, Evan Rachel Wood, & Erika Christensen “The Rendezvous”- but they showed up on AO3, not here. Seriously the story has 6 great reviews and multiple kudos on AO3- no H there, but if the right fans came here… Other stories I’ve written have similar potential, I tell myself. A few of them have gotten great reviews on Lit and/or AO3 in small amount. I just need more good reviews. Come on, fans of the X-Men who want to see them in hot realistic sex situations, come read my X-Men story! Same for fans of the 2008 Olympic athletes and Dynasty Warriors characters I feature in “Beijing Streakers”, my Star Trek lesbian sex show story, or my other stories as applicable.

There’s always the chance, however, that the H can go away. Today’s crazy fan can be tomorrow’s troll. Ratings can rise and they can fall. Have I truly earned my H? What if the fans suddenly change their minds? What if anti fans come and bomb me again? And even worse… what if I haven’t actually earned my H and the fans who gave it to me were just fans of my subject and not me? That’s my biggest fear.

Solution? Make the H permanent once it reaches a certain number of votes is the one I see. Let’s say 10 votes to earn the H averaged a certain way as is the current state. But then if you get a certain number of additional “5” votes you get a permanent H. Say, 50 more. Too much? Make it 30.

You may argue the H is still meaningless. I do not. Now I know I did good and the trolls can’t get me. Phew!

Or like Djmac suggested, take away the H. I already act like it should be there with all my stories, honestly. I have to earn an H from myself and muses based on all my characters plus a senior muse as editor who is honestly crazy and always praises me, then shifts her mood and says fix X, Y, and Z before I post. I think if you haven’t done similarly as a writer, you shouldn’t be publishing.

Occasionally I have seen what I’ve judged to be such a writer. I never point the finger at them, though. Nor do I one bomb. I’m honestly not a hater. I just stop reading the work of people I don’t like. Same for those with whom I get bored. And I’m bored now, so I’m moving on and saying no more here.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It’s silly that a story with 10 votes and a rating of 4.5 is “hot”, but one with 1,000 votes and a rating of 4.49 is not.

It’s also silly that the H is redundant. It just means rating greater or equal to 4:5.

Increasing the quantity of votes required to get an H, might help. But, why not come up with a formula (I feel involving natural logarithms) that awards “hot” based on each of, views, votes, rating, comments (I think people use favorite as a bookmark - why if there is already a bookmark?). Plus, the median rating in a category.

Such a formula might require some tweaking. But it would at least be less of a blunderbuss.

Em

 

[lovecraft68]

Almost afraid to ask, but who the hell is getting a thousand votes?

Its not uncommon for an incest story(mom son or bro sis, dad daughter isn't as big of a draw) its also possible in LW. Difference is in LW a large percentage of the thousand votes could be bombs.

 

[djrip]

I looked at AO3. That notwithstanding, I don't exactly know what the site is. It has videos, manga, cartoons, and some stories. But I get no sense poking my nose around what kind of site is. What is allowed there, and what is verboten?

I thought it was primarily for fanfic.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I don't really do much of that.

I thought it was primarily for fanfic.

 

[MajorRewrite]

I would do away with the red H altogether. Would simplify the scoring system to thumbs up, thumbs down, and maybe thumbs sideways.

I mostly agree, except I’d only offer the thumbs up. There’s no real reason to give a negative option. A simple “like” option works fine for YouTube.

If Lit wants rankings, it can compile a list of the most likes in the last 30 days or all-time. Simple, easy to understand, and no way to bomb stories.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I looked at AO3. That notwithstanding, I don't exactly know what the site is. It has videos, manga, cartoons, and some stories. But I get no sense poking my nose around what kind of site is. What is allowed there, and what is verboten?

ArchiveOfOurOwn? No, it's just a fanfiction site.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

I mostly agree, except I’d only offer the thumbs up. There’s no real reason to give a negative option. A simple “like” option works fine for YouTube.

If Lit wants rankings, it can compile a list of the most likes in the last 30 days or all-time. Simple, easy to understand, and no way to bomb stories.

That would create a system with three ways to give kudos and nothing else: thumbs up, favorite, and follow. Want to express a negative opinion, then you must comment. Works fine by me. Though as i said, Lit could incentivice favorites and follows by feeding readers with accounts stories or authors with overlaping favorites or follows. Then leave thumbs up only for the sake of those without accounts.

 

[MajorRewrite]

A thousand votes would be an actual accomplishment WORTHY of a Red H.

I know it seems counterproductive because I'm actually arguing for a change that would eliminate almost all my own personal Red H's.

Disagree. 8 of my 9 stories have over 1,000 votes, but that’s simply because they’re in the incest and loving wives categories. They aren’t more worthy than stories in other categories with low vote totals.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Not really into fan fiction other than ides for Stargate stories not featuring the SG1. Not sure that even counts, then. However, those characters would be in them now and again just to keep them rooted in the universe.

ArchiveOfOurOwn? No, it's just a fanfiction site.

 

[alohadave]

Not really into fan fiction other than ides for Stargate stories not featuring the SG1. Not sure that even counts, then. However, those characters would be in them now and again just to keep them rooted in the universe.

Indeed.

 

[AchtungNight]

That would create a system with three ways to give kudos and nothing else: thumbs up, favorite, and follow. Want to express a negative opinion, then you must comment. Works fine by me. Though as i said, Lit could incentivice favorites and follows by feeding readers with accounts stories or authors with overlaping favorites or follows. Then leave thumbs up only for the sake of those without accounts.

Yes, AO3 is a fanfic site. I was mainly mentioning it for the review system similar to what John describes above.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yes, Undomesticated equines could not remove me.

Indeed.

 

[mirafrida]

If each of us went and looked at the stories we've personally favorited over the years (or, you know, "really really liked"), it'd be interesting to know what the average score was.

My list is pretty short, and the average is 4.47. So, if I went by "H", I'd probably have missed half of them...

 

[Bamagan]

Such a formula might require some tweaking. But it would at least be less of a blunderbuss.

Em

Arr! A paleologism!

 

[FifthEstate]

One value I haven’t seen mentioned here—the red-H provides a quick method for potential readers to determine if they might elect to pursue an author’s work based on the quality of their story scoring. I rarely read a story before I’ve reviewed the author’s bio page and story list. When I click on their story list, if it’s “littered” with red-H’s across 50 stories, it piques my interest more than an author with zero across 100 stories (“LW only” stories not withstanding).

Lowering the red-H to 4.0 or eliminating it would lesson that value for me as a reader.

 

[Bamagan]

I'm more or less in the camp of @SimonDoom on this one. The tool of the red H is too simple to provide much, if any, value. A more sophisticated tool might be better, but the fancier you make it, the less comprehensible it's likely to be, although the ones who linger over their scores would likely be incentivized to learn how it works. And an even simpler version of it runs into the same problem of being a clunky guide to quality.
Authors who want to cater to specific audiences would probably be better served if readers were allowed to vote on the tags to indicate what kind of content they want more of or less of. But once you're into that territory you're basically turning yourself into a ChatBot.

 

[EmilyMiller]

One value I haven’t seen mentioned here—the red-H provides a quick method for potential readers to determine if they might elect to pursue an author’s work based on the quality of their story scoring. I rarely read a story before I’ve reviewed the author’s bio page and story list. When I click on their story list, if it’s “littered” with red-H’s across 50 stories, it piques my interest more than an author with zero across 100 stories (“LW only” stories not withstanding).

Lowering the red-H to 4.0 or eliminating it would lesson that value for me as a reader.

Yeah - me too.

Em