The Way Less Than Perfect, drawn to the lifestyle

[Pure]

Francisco,


There is a risk to cheating you have already admitted that, which is in fact the only thing Catalina and me have said.

No, you suggested that risk was significant and a reason not to cheat and you, F, iirc, said the deaths from cheating were greater than from all plane and train crashes combined.

There is an additional risk if you cheat that is all there is to it, you are taking a change with your life, yes you also do that if you leave your partner, if you separate, I will gladly admit that. But not playing the simple game of adding those percentages which would be of course bullshit, you can see that at the minimum you are adding additional risk to the separation.

I thought I was clear in the posting. Partly tongue in cheek and partly to illustrate 'complexities', I was comparing the 'be honest, say you're not satisfied and leave' option you, Catalina, and Mayberry recommend, with the 'affair' option, meaning *have an affair, keep it quiet, and stay (if hubby agrees to that).* For the woman, I suggested, that might be safer.

And that is why one can minimize alleged 'additional risk'. For one thing, the affair may not be known, and for a second, when known it does not invariably cause separation (though it may do so a significant percentage of the time). I'm speculating, but might it not be the case that the guy who's 'freaking out' about a separation, terrified of 'losing' her, might listen to "I'm sorry about cheating but I want us to stay together"; then be inclined to say "OK, Let's put your affair behind us and get together again"?

Best,
J.

 

[Netzach]

Hi Netzach,

You bring up some interesting points; first I think we all have agreed that in DV circumstances there is a completely different set of guidelines. One that in my opinion is best left to professionals then well meaning amateurs.



The fact is that when you enter a relationship your partner expects honesty and truthfulness from you. If you have not made the agreement that your needs can be met outside the relationships, you are breaking the agreement, you are breaking the contract made between the parties involved.

If you break that part of the agreement most people will find it also very possible to break other parts. If your partner is such a wonderful understanding person then you have the fullest right to expect from them that your needs are answered or that you can come to a new agreement in which the needs of all parties involved can be met, and if not it is only fair to all parties involved that you find a new partner, one that is better suited to meet your needs.

Francisco.

The fact is one-size-fits-all and if->then thinking applied to problems concerning relationships and the human heart are about as appropriate as transporting a donkey in a Porsche.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No, you suggested that risk was significant and a reason not to cheat and you, F, iirc, said the deaths from cheating were greater than from all plane and train crashes combined.

Fine Pure, disagree with me on the numbers if that is what you want, it does not really matter that much, we can argue about percentages and say the number lies somewhere between 20 to 40 %. You know what we take the lowest possible number, 20 % of the intimate homicides are because of infidelity, which came down to 263 deaths in the USA, if I remember correctly.

That is 263 people too many, Pure if you want to hear me say that I have overestimated the equation between airplanes, trains and infidelity, I admit to it. It does not matter, not many people will find it interesting if there have been 263 women murdered or 513 because of infidelity what is important is that a significant percentage of the intimate homicides are directly related to infidelity, when you cheat you are taken an additional risk with your life and I find the lowest possible percentage that of 20% a very high percentage. But you may disagree of course that is your prerogative.

In any case for your information since you are so interested in the numbers in 1998 there where zero accidents in aviation in the USA.
Source:
http://aviation-safety.net/statistics/1998stat.htm

And that is why one can minimize alleged 'additional risk'. For one thing, the affair may not be known, and for a second, when known it does not invariably cause separation (though it may do so a significant percentage of the time). I'm speculating, but might it not be the case that the guy who's 'freaking out' about a separation, terrified of 'losing' her, might listen to "I'm sorry about cheating but I want us to stay together"; then be inclined to say "OK, Let's put your affair behind us and get together again"?

And yes Pure you can speculate and if that is your opinion fine, I think though it is coloured by what you want to hear of course. Of course those numbers are mixed with the infidelity numbers as you are very well aware off.

Linda Wolfe published in 1975 Playing around, in which she studied 27 women who where lying and keeping it a secret from their partner. The reasoning for many of these women was that if they could meet their own needs, their marriages would be more successful. Many said they were desperately lonely. Others were afraid, believing their husbands did not love them or were not committed to their marriage. Five years after the initial study, only three of the twenty-one women were still married. I think that says a lot does it not Pure about your ideas of keeping an extramarital affair hidden, the end result is pain, hurt and divorce.

In any case there is a very interesting report that has been done on why people cheat.

http://hometown.aol.com/AffairLady/affair.html

As you can see almost 90 % cheated when in reality their relationship was already over. So again I ask you the question which you have not answered, is it not better to talk it over, to finish the relationship then to cheat, especially if 90% of the persons that cheat do it because the relationship is already over. And especially if you keep it hidden the changes that the relationship is going to survive is minimal.

As a matter of fact, my research indicates that extramarital affairs based solely on desire for new sexual partners is a very small percentage of the total number of affairs. Specifically, of the over 4,300 respondents that have completed my questionnaire, over 90% have reported that the affair is based on emotional needs not being met within the marital relationship, and not sexually motivated reasons. Therefore, it appears that the allure of extramarital affairs is not new sexual experiences, nor are they due to any biological inability to remain monogamous, but rather what drives many individuals to become involved in extramarital affairs is a lack of emotional fulfillment within the existing relationship.
The indication is that the desire for a new sexual experience is not the initial motive for looking outside the marriage, but rather comes after the breakdown of the emotional relationship. Only then, after there has been an eroding of the interpersonal relationship, including a loss of passion, lack of intimacy, and loss of emotional and sexual satisfaction, does the dissatisfied partner look for a new lover to fulfill their needs.

I find especially this except from the article extremely interesting.

Unlike Hollywood's portrayal of affairs, real "triangles" involve a great deal of guilt, confusion, anxiety, and pain. In the end all members of the triangle are affected, for better or worse. Whether the marriage survives or the lovers form a new couple, everyone involved in the "triangle" will have been dramatically and permanently affected by the extramarital experience.

So basicly we are speaking here about relationships that have ended, where the cheating has taken place and where the three people involved have taken a lot of guilt, confusion, anxiety, and pain.

So again I ask you Pure, taken all this into account is it not better to end the relationship then to continuo it under these circumstances.

If you take everything into account and we are not even speaking here about the moral justification or not, I really can only see negatives with cheating. If you have to cheat end it, it is cleaner and better for all parties involved.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi Francisco,

Thanks for your calm and rational comments.

Some of this reminds of me the 'anti drug' message for teens. First the anti folk say,
"Drugs can kill you." When the numbers come out small, they say,
"Drugs make you psychotic." When those number come out, they say, "Drugs are associated with low school performance."
"But Dad, I going to Princeton." In the end, it's "Taking drugs is bad, I don't care if you get away with it."

The anti-teen-sex arguments have a similar pattern. First, the deaths from abortion; afte that, then the VD. That lost clout, and the advice columnists said, "He'll fuck you and leave you". Finally the responsible teen hears, "OK, maybe you will be safe, but your Mom just doesn't think it's right."

Probably the stats issue is boring everyone, but one last time.
Francisco said in part


It does not matter, not many people will find it interesting if there have been 263 women murdered or 513 because of infidelity what is important is that a significant percentage of the intimate homicides are directly related to infidelity, when you cheat you are taken an additional risk with your life and I find the lowest possible percentage that of 20% a very high percentage. But you may disagree of course that is your prerogative.

Words like 'high percentage" have to be looked at in context. Affairs have a risk of about .6 per 100,000 the way I figure it.
Probably in the 300s somewhere for US women. Look at some other avoidable activity, besides car driving. Well, for 1990, there were about 5000 deaths from drowning in the US (The World Almanac, 1992). The rate a bit over 2 per 100,000. That's, I'd guess, about 600 married women. The advice, "Don't go swimming, stay off boats, esp. small ones" would save about twice as many lives as your advice.

You have to keep totals in mind. The married women number 55,000,000. If a third cheat, and a twentieth of those, in a given year, that's a bit over 900,000. In that year there were also over 1,000,000 divorces. So as some researchers have stated, 'intimate homicide' against women, while a terrible thing, occurs in a tiny fraction of separations and divorces. If all intimate homicides of women numbered about 1250, that means 1/1000 of all divorces.

Anyone bored yet?


As you can see almost 90 % cheated when in reality their relationship was already over. So again I ask you the question which you have not answered, is it not better to talk it over, to finish the relationship then to cheat, especially if 90% of the persons that cheat do it because the relationship is already over. And especially if you keep it hidden the changes that the relationship is going to survive is minimal.

I agree with the first sentence. Many relationships are 'already over' when affairs occur. That leads to a conclusion quite different from yours. You and Mayb are saying "dont cheat, it hurts the partner and perhaps fatally damages the relationship."

The import of your analysis is that the affair will make little difference to the outcome. Simply put, it's a symptom of a problem. Even were it not there, or removed, the problem remains. So it's odd to for you to get going again and say 'chances [or survival] [are] minimal.' They're minimal to begin with.


Wolfe:


The indication is that the desire for a new sexual experience is not the initial motive for looking outside the marriage, but rather comes after the breakdown of the emotional relationship. Only then, after there has been an eroding of the interpersonal relationship, including a loss of passion, lack of intimacy, and loss of emotional and sexual satisfaction, does the dissatisfied partner look for a new lover to fulfill their needs.

Same point. The emotional link is eroded. The affair is a *result*.
Her analysis also *diminishes* the importance of any *causal* effect of the affair-- rather, we might say it 'occasions' the breakup of the marriage.

Francisco:

So again I ask you Pure, taken all this into account is it not better to end the relationship then to continuo it under these circumstances.

If you take everything into account and we are not even speaking here about the moral justification or not, I really can only see negatives with cheating. If you have to cheat end it, it is cleaner and better for all parties involved.

Lots of things in life can be 'better done' in hindsight. One can say, "had i done choice A instead of B" much heartache would be avoided. There was a situation where I hid something from my second wife, that affair. Yes she was hurt. Yes we broke up.

Breakups are never 'clean' or perfectly executed. One has to make decisions on the fly, or one finds one has made them, without thinking --i.e., NOT telling about something.

Using your information as a example, if I may. You did not at first tell Catalina you'd formerly been cheated upon. Can't we say now, "It would have been better to."? Probably, but that's where you were then. Maybe embarrassed or afraid or whatever.
I could lecture you and say, "You had free will, you *could have* told, if you'd plucked up your courage." Fine. But you didn't use 'free will,' you followed your conditioning. What's done is done.

Again, if I may use your example. I gather you discovered the affair, then ended it. Correct? Can we say though, the discovery truly *caused* the end, in the sense that it wouldn't have happened anyway. No. Not according to my impression, if I may say, subject to correction.

So, with your case or many others, looking back we do see a 'precipitation' of the end; yes the affair was screamed about at the time of break up. But as Wolfe and you have said, the marriage was moribund. The end was pretty likely anyway. Maybe the affair made it a little nastier, but also it made it quicker. Indeed, a friend of mine blesses the day when she learned of her husband's affairs. It prodded her to end things, somewhat more on her schedule.

Best,

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi Pure,

Your calculation to the risk factor are very interesting.
Can I ask you a question if we go decide it is 20% of the intimate homicides do you not agree that there must also be a part of the intimate violence that is part of the same equation? Unfortunately I have found no statistics to proof it, but it is only a logical assumption.

But let say that 5 % which is only a quarter of the percentage of intimate homicide of the intimate violence is related to extramarital affairs. In 1998 there where about 80000 cases give or take a few that means 40000 women, and I am using very low percentages.

I think you must have mist a quote I made about hidden affairs, so I will put it to you again.
Linda Wolfe published in 1975 Playing around, in which she studied 27 women who where lying and keeping it a secret from their partner. The reasoning for many of these women was that if they could meet their own needs, their marriages would be more successful. Many said they were desperately lonely. Others were afraid, believing their husbands did not love them or were not committed to their marriage. Five years after the initial study, only three of the twenty-one women were still married. I think that says a lot does it not Pure about your ideas of keeping an extramarital affair hidden, the end result is pain, hurt and divorce.

As you can see exactly that kind of affair you are pointing to, cheating and keeping it hidden from your partner. The changes that you partner will not find out are 3 out of 27. Do not think it would be wise to play those odds.

Again, if I may use your example. I gather you discovered the affair, then ended it. Correct? Can we say though, the discovery truly *caused* the end, in the sense that it wouldn't have happened anyway. No. Not according to my impression, if I may say, subject to correction.

No Pure you have made the wrong assumption, I pointed out that the relationship was already over when I found out. But you are missing the point it is better to end it clean then end it with cheating, also cheating will not save your marriage, or will give you what you need without paying the price of your relationship.

So the question remains why do it in the first place?
There is nothing to gain with it, the change that your relationship will end anyway is huge.

Better is to try to deal with your needs inside the relationship, look for outside help if you need or end it to have both needs fulfilled.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Francisco:

But let say that 5 % which is only a quarter of the percentage of intimate homicide of the intimate violence is related to extramarital affairs. In 1998 there where about 80000 cases give or take a few that means 40000 women, and I am using very low percentages.

Damn decimal point gets ya every time.

{Added: the correct figure for this calculation is 4000.}

I weary of this. In absolute terms there lotsa domestic violence and even 5%--an arbitrary figure-- is still lotsa. OK? And it's deplorable too, OK? The actual figure, at least for one US urban area, is likely in the 25-35% area, just as for homicides.

J.

Sexual Jealousy, Violence, and Embeddedness in Intimate Relations:
A Social Structural and Cultural Explanation*
Anthony Paik, Edward O. Laumann, and Martha Van Haitsma
University of Chicago
[2000]

http://www.src.uchicago.edu/prc/pdfs/paik02.pdf




TABLE 3
AND THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE
Source of Conflict
Cook County L-Side Southtown
SOURCES OF CONFLICTS BETWEEN CURRENT SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS






Cook County L-Side Southtown

Percent Odds Ratio Percent Odds Ratio Percent Odds Ratio

Reporting Severe Violence
(N=651) (N=644) (N=273) (N=269) (N=232) (N=231)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jealousy 27.2% 6.21 *** 34.1% 3.39 *** 36.6% 4.74 ***
Sex 11.4% 0.72 16.1% 2.16 † 15.1% 1.02
Money 37.6% 1.61 38.1% 1.12 36.4% 1.16
Children 22.0% 1.06 21.3% 1.20 19.4% 1.53
Drink or drugs 16.4% 3.29 * 30.4% 3.23 *** 16.0% 1.85
Relatives 24.4% 1.20 23.8% 1.62 16.0% 2.15 *
Friends 16.8% 3.60 ** 24.2% 1.88 † 25.4% 2.24 *
H' hold chores 32.4% 0.73 22.3% 1.31 18.1% 1.09
Something else 9.0% 2.08 6.6% 1.28 6.0% 1.41
------------
Note: Odds ratios are bivariate estimates of the increased odds of any intimate partner violence.
† P <= .10
* P <= .05
** P <= .01
*** P <= .001
=========

The table has six columns, two for each geographic subarea. The percentage figure is for causes of incidents of severe violence in relationships. sorry the formatting is lost.

 

[catalina_francisco]

OK Pure It seems we have reach agreement on something.

So the question remains why do it in the first place?

There is nothing to gain with it, the change that your relationship will end anyway is huge.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

Why do people eat butter, steal money, smoke cigarettes and shoot up?

SM itself fits into my own "no, it's not a good idea but I like it" file.

SSC and we-are-ok me all you like, I don't think this is on par with eating wheat germ, but I crave it like I crave food.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You have made a good point Netzach, people will do things because they are people be it right or wrong.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have just been told by someone that I have hurt severely people’s feelings and that they consider themselves to be severely insulted by my words.

I think this whole discussion about infidelity has taken a course of its own and there has been a lot said which I think most people would like to retract on both sides.

Let me say that I never indented to insult or hurt anyone. Yes I have strong feelings about the issue, and I stand behind my words put I apologize for becoming personal or giving the impression of becoming personal.

Francisco.

 

[SexyChele]

These threads need some witty and entertaining comments.

Thank you. I was beginning to get a severe headache from all of this.

Is it just me, or have some of you felt like you are posting in circles?

Haven't posted, as I know I will automatically be judged as one of the "superiors". But, yes. To an outsider, it's like being at a party where everyone is so busy shouting out their opinions and stances, that no one is listening anymore.

Issues of morality on a porn board seldom see any resolution. I speak from experience in that I have been involved or observed a number of threads on this topic and others.

As well, me too.

First, our motivation for posting is to be considered. Are any of you posting in hopes of changing another's mind? educating the "cheater" or the "non cheater" as the case may be? If you are, I have to say, it isn't likely to happen.

Ding, ding, ding! I think Miss T gets the prize! All too often in these "debates" (using term very loosely here), it seems people want to try to change other's thinking. Get over it. It's a freakin' porn board. Exactly what kind of "debate" do you think is going to really occur?

Second, are you seeking support and justification for your views? Well, you all have found at least some of that. Cool.

Is this what most folks are seeking? Truly? Validation, support, justification, "I'm okay as long as 3 other people on a porn board agree with me"?

Third, do you find this sort of debate entertaining? If so, enjoy.

It was entertaining on the first page. After that, who really really reads posts that are 3 computer screens long? And why would they?

For me, I just find it sad to see people I respect attacking one another in text over an issue that can only lead to more hard feelings and attacks.

Exactly. This leads nowhere - except to hard feelings all the way round.

*sigh*

I just wish we could move on with the understanding that there are no right or wrong answers, only what is right or wrong for each one of us in our own personal lives.

Me, too, Miss T. Me too.

 

[Pure]

Note to All,

There is a 'ceasefire' in effect between me and Francisco. We both regret some of the excesses of wording inflicted on one another. And on others trying to participate in a fruitful way.

We hope for good and spirited debate in this and other threads, based on respect for persons, even when *their views* are strongly disagreed with.

J. (with agreement of F)

 

[Pure]

Sexy C --


Do stick around. This seedy place needs your 'class.'--or is it your ass?



PS, How's your porn writing busines going?