This will be ugly

[Tsotha]

The Clothes Line - beautiful progression, it spins around through it and becomes (arguably) erotic. It is categorized as non-erotic, so it allows each reader to decide for himself what is being said here. If anything. An aloof reader could read it as a simple scene. That there is much to miss, here, is what makes it a good poem, for me.

Misogyny's Morning Wood, on the other hand, is placed as erotic, but is anything but from the very title. It does not allow the reader to decide, it has decided for the reader. It delivers its message with the subtlety and precision of a sledgehammer. Those who need the message avoid it.

 

[Tsotha]

Afterimage - a poem that does not demand the reader's empathy: unlike Misogyny's Morning Wood, it earns it. A poem that carries a message that reveals itself through the poem and becomes self-evident, unlike Misogyny's Morning Wood, above, which shouts: "MISOGYNY IS BAD!" with fingers stuck in its ears. "Afterimage" is the perfect word both to describe what is happening in the poem and the lasting effect on the reader.

 

[Tsotha]

twelveoone has said somewhere:

Poet > poem < reader

Which means, amongst other things, that the poem is both what you put in it and what the reader puts in it. If you are doing your job as a poet well, you're nudging the reader into putting certain things into the poem.

More generally:

Source > message < Receiver

What is it you hope to achieve with a protest poem that manages to earn the enmity of the target audience on the title?

 

[Trixareforkids]

Thank you Tsotha for taking the time to give me insights from your pov as a reader on multiple pieces, I really appreciate it.

Your reaction/thoughts on MMW was what my hubby expected most male readers to see/feel and why he thought I shouldn't make it obvious in the title. I explained that earlier, but I'd like to say further, that I'm glad I did. It's a piece that should elicit some heartfelt feeling, dislike, discomfort, disgust, disdain, they're as valid as any other feelings.

Most male readers will feel as if they're being dis'd by the piece and though I'm not actually dis'n anyone or the gender as a whole, it has a point. How a reader receives that point I can't control, and have no wish to, but to try to sneak the point in would be wrong. Subtly has a place but not when subtle and misogyny going hand in hand and being ignored is the point. You feel that people will roll right on past because of the title and I don't doubt some will, but if it makes even a few people think, it's done its job.

As to the pieces you enjoyed I'm not certain how to respond beyond saying thank you, but here goes anyway.

The end of The Clothes Line gives just the barest hint of the erotic and therefore felt more at home to me in non-erotic. It's a favorite of mine as well, I hope to emulate the feel of it in other pieces as I learn what I'm doing. That one was a gimme from my muse/whisperer, future ones will be earned.

Afterimage, is just brutal to me. It was written through tears and I've not been able to bring myself to edit it. That it has connected with others is both heartwarming and sad.

Terminal Girl's Last Words To Hope, is all about accepting loss and endings and I'm glad I said it well enough to connect with other people.

 

[Tsotha]

Your point was that misogyny is insidious. Instead of making me feel it through the poem, you're telling me it is. I feel your original instinct about the title was the correct one.

*shrugging* Opinions. Worth about as much as shit.

 

[Trixareforkids]

twelveoone has said somewhere:

Poet > poem < reader

Which means, amongst other things, that the poem is both what you put in it and what the reader puts in it. If you are doing your job as a poet well, you're nudging the reader into putting certain things into the poem.

More generally:

Source > message < Receiver

What is it you hope to achieve with a protest poem that manages to earn the enmity of the target audience on the title?

The answer to your question, is to provoke thought on a subject that gets ignored or vilified and therefore does not get dealt with. Some will ignore it because of the title, some will hunker down in the thought that it's an angry vagina piece, and some will stop
and think about it.
Misogyny is pervasive and ignored, so people passing it by, not a loss.
Those that become angry with me for voicing a view that is NOT an attack on anyone or the gender as a whole, but a call for thought, again, no loss, their opinions are firmly held and won't be changed.
Those few though, that do stop and think, THEY are the target audience.

It's not a piece to change people's minds, it's about awareness, sparking conversation. I've had two discussions with Lit poets on the topic. That's two more than I would have had. One is still in progress, the other concluded and the gent had some new insights to give me and took some new insights away. I can't say that about any of my other pieces, therefore I'd class it as my most effective poem to date.

 

[Tsotha]

Your reaction/thoughts on MMW was what my hubby expected most male readers to see/feel

He expected most male readers to feel the metaphor is inadequate for the message you're trying to convey?

I am making no comment on the content of your message.

 

[Tsotha]

Those few though, that do stop and think, THEY are the target audience.

It's not a piece to change people's minds, it's about awareness, sparking conversation.

Very well. In that case, my point about the title and the metaphor being inadequate aren't valid, since your target for the message isn't what I thought it was.

 

[Trixareforkids]

He expected most male readers to feel the metaphor is inadequate for the message you're trying to convey?

I am making no comment on the content of your message.

No, he expected the topic to get me lambasted on an erotic site and that without using the word misogyny directly that it would be missed by most, thus his advice to not use it in the title.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Sorry for the hi-jack 1201

 

[twelveoone]

Sorry for the hi-jack 1201

the intent of the thread, both you and Tsotha did admirably. And I advise not fucking around with the ending on it, that takes it out of the cunt rant and into the identification as a greater problem.
transference of the antagonist from him to misogyny itself

Now what was GM's antagonist? In his list of victims in Broken Villanelle? Unfair question it is not in the list of victims, but he did give it a passing mention.

...nor will they until
a year from now when her welfare will manage

 

[twelveoone]

OK the other two I consider works of art. This is a piece of work. It is my own, so I can't judge it.

Joke

Trix's is a modified rant, as is this. However, you can't figure out what the rant is. There is a protagonist and a silent antagonist. Ah, yeah it don't look right. There is a Joke, that doesn't seem to be funny. And every so many lines it shifts. Take a closer look, whereas GM has a setting and Trix has an easily imagined one, there is no setting. With me, the text refers to two solid things only, a cigarette and a tissue.
There are no sympathy ploys, it does little for the audience to hold on to.The antagonist is identified as "you", unlike Trix's you that is responsible (at least partly) and alleviated by the collective "we" at the end. This doesn't even allow that.
For Tso, a tag Nothing? WTF Seinfeld got rich on nothing, and this offers nothing.
just you and it
you and it
but only for 11 lines. That was a self imposed constraint, 7-4 for a total of 11
would probably mean nothing to you and as it doesn't infer, it means lucky and death. The other constraint was the 12 syllable line. Here is the original:

What a joke, lighting votive candles at your Church
of Smoke and Shitful Sorrows. Pitiful, endless
parades of chimeras issue like froth.. Aye, tis harder, harder
for a camel - a cheap cigarette, perhaps, do you want one?
You can surround yourself with smoke like a cancer
and eat at all that surrounds us. A tissue? Wipe
your ass, wipe your eyes, dainty gloved buttplug.

Want a punchline? We all wind up in a bigger hole
than you've ever been dear; we'll make it a contest,.
run, baby, run. Run, it's crush time, I'm laughing.
And we all know how lucky I am. When laughing.

tag: A premonition of an ash tray?

 

[twelveoone]

Now, I'm going to show you two things, a reading and a compositional technique. And then you can all sit back and mumble about how full of shit I am, which I know you will. I got the PM.

What a joke, lighting votive candles at your Church
of Smoke and Shitful Sorrows. Pitiful, endless
parades of chimeras issue like froth.. Aye, tis harder, harder
for a camel - a cheap cigarette, perhaps, do you want one?
You can surround yourself with smoke like a cancer
and eat at all that surrounds us. A tissue? Wipe
your ass, wipe your eyes, dainty gloved buttplug.

Want a punchline? We all wind up in a bigger hole
than you've ever been dear; we'll make it a contest,.
run, baby, run. Run, it's crush time, I'm laughing.
And we all know how lucky I am. When laughing.


Aye, tis harder, harder for a camel (to get through the eye of a needle?)
- a cheap cigarette, perhaps, do you want one?
but the thought changed. This is the most anomalous line, and the most surprising. This probably is the "key".
Look what surrounds it, and even says it, Smoke.
TAG: Camel, cigarette, smoke, Joe, buttplug

Now if I didn't know better I'd suspect the writer was familiar with the technique of Raymond Roussel

http://www.literotica.com/p/au-to-de-foe

Nah, I doubt it.
So that's the Joke, a butt plug?
I doubt that too.

 

[Trixareforkids]

OK the other two I consider works of art. This is a piece of work. It is my own, so I can't judge it.

Joke

Trix's is a modified rant, as is this. However, you can't figure out what the rant is. There is a protagonist and a silent antagonist. Ah, yeah it don't look right. There is a Joke, that doesn't seem to be funny. And every so many lines it shifts. Take a closer look, whereas GM has a setting and Trix has an easily imagined one, there is no setting. With me, the text refers to two solid things only, a cigarette and a tissue.
There are no sympathy ploys, it does little for the audience to hold on to.The antagonist is identified as "you", unlike Trix's you that is responsible (at least partly) and alleviated by the collective "we" at the end. This doesn't even allow that.
For Tso, a tag Nothing? WTF Seinfeld got rich on nothing, and this offers nothing.
just you and it
you and it
but only for 11 lines. That was a self imposed constraint, 7-4 for a total of 11
would probably mean nothing to you and as it doesn't infer, it means lucky and death. The other constraint was the 12 syllable line. Here is the original:

What a joke, lighting votive candles at your Church
of Smoke and Shitful Sorrows. Pitiful, endless
parades of chimeras issue like froth.. Aye, tis harder, harder
for a camel - a cheap cigarette, perhaps, do you want one?
You can surround yourself with smoke like a cancer
and eat at all that surrounds us. A tissue? Wipe
your ass, wipe your eyes, dainty gloved buttplug.

Want a punchline? We all wind up in a bigger hole
than you've ever been dear; we'll make it a contest,.
run, baby, run. Run, it's crush time, I'm laughing.
And we all know how lucky I am. When laughing.

tag: A premonition of an ash tray?

Ok, what's coming through to me here is
It's all a crap shoot
7 is a win, 4 is a come, 11 is a win
Twelve is craps, you lose

 

[twelveoone]

Ok, what's coming through to me here is
It's all a crap shoot
7 is a win, 4 is a come, 11 is a win
Twelve is craps, you lose

is as good as any, but I am good at what I do...

 

[Trixareforkids]

is as good as any, but I am good at what I do...

got interrupted mid-comment.

that's what I got, plus a little more but only once you pointed out the 7-4-11-12, which I never would have noticed on my own

I don't analyze poems for form, syllables, word count, meter
I "hear" them as I read so I notice sounds but not in an analytical way, I've never questioned why some sound smoother than others, though thanks to y'all I am going back over favorites and looking at that now.

What I'm hearing, or trying to hear, is whatever the message is whispering/singing/screaming in my ear.

Before you pointed out the numbers what I got was: religion is BS, we're already in hell.

If I can't understand the message, if it's garbled by bad language, or buried too deep beneath layers of language, I generally just move on. The exception to that would be if the language itself is either very beautiful or so ugly as to be interesting, then I will re-read it again and again for the words alone, not looking for meaning but sometimes finding it anyway.

The things I'm interested in learning all have to do with being able to convey whatever the message of the piece I'm writing is. Keeping the reader with me to the end so that they have a chance of receiving whatever it is I'm sending.

Sometimes it is just about the language, playing with it and there's no message just images that may or may not have meaning to the reader. So there are things I need to learn to better convey images as well, but I don't know if they can actually be taught.

You keep saying your pieces (the ones you've posted on the threads since I've been here) are "a joke" and that may be, but I agree, you are good at what you do, you invoke clear images, even if they're not the ones you intended. I have respect for that.

 

[Tsotha]

Take a closer look, whereas GM has a setting and Trix has an easily imagined one, there is no setting. With me, the text refers to two solid things only, a cigarette and a tissue.

Are you serious? I can see perfectly a "setting". The "characters" and "relationships" here are much clearer than in other poems by you.

For Tso, a tag Nothing? WTF Seinfeld got rich on nothing, and this offers nothing.

Ha, ha. Now, why would you tell me it is about nothing, when it clearly isn't?

but only for 11 lines. That was a self imposed constraint, 7-4 for a total of 11
would probably mean nothing to you and as it doesn't infer, it means lucky and death.

How delightfully obscure. Lucky number, number that sounds like death, in another language. What purpose does that serve? Or are you practicing some strange form of pome-voodoo?

The other constraint was the 12 syllable line.

What, a reference to yourself? Also, not all lines are 12 syllables.

Here is the original:

What about it? You removed some unneeded words. So?

tag: A premonition of an ash tray?

but the thought changed. This is the most anomalous line, and the most surprising. This probably is the "key".
Look what surrounds it, and even says it, Smoke.
TAG: Camel, cigarette, smoke, Joe, buttplug

I thought shitful was the key.

Now if I didn't know better I'd suspect the writer was familiar with the technique of Raymond Roussel

Just hope the reader is, too.

 

[Trixareforkids]

Craps. God.

God does not play dice. ~A. Einstein
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~A. Einstein

Hmm. Re-reading...

 

[ishtat]

Are you serious? I can see perfectly a "setting". The "characters" and "relationships" here are much clearer than in other poems by you.

I had no sense of place at all and took the "church" to mean a sort of imagined edifice in the mind of self delusion/deception.

 

[twelveoone]

How delightfully obscure. Lucky number, number that sounds like death, in another language. What purpose does that serve? Or are you practicing some strange form of pome-voodoo?




What, a reference to yourself? Also, not all lines are 12 syllables.








.

no. a constraint, merely a constraint, a form.
12 syllable lines are inherently unstable, been experimenting with them for years,
this was an experiment, and now the reader is aware of Raymond Roussel, demo of compositional technique. And yes "shitful" was a secondary key. I had a good line, I wrote around it. In au to de fa, the first parallels the last.

So where is it set? You have to supply it. As far as the "characters" and "relationships" here are much clearer than in other poems by you. They have to be, don't they, as there really is nothing to grab on to.
By all rights it should have failed, shouldn't it? It really is an oppressive poem and so far inverted.
It is held together by paced shifts and alignment, much the way Seinfeld is.

Whatever can be done with words will be done with words, and generally for nefarious reasons. Here you merely have to suffer for 11 lines, and it cost you nothing, nothing expected from you, no sales, no ploys.

 

[Tsotha]

I had no sense of place at all and took the "church" to mean a sort of imagined edifice in the mind of self delusion/deception.

In a poem like this, some words are blank spaces you have to fill (with meaning), and some words establish a relationship between those blank spaces, serving as hints / sign posts. It's not a trail of bread crumbs, though - it's unlikely that any person will reconstruct exactly the original meaning, but by respecting the rules set down in the poem itself, you can come up with something that the author kinda intended. At least, that's my understanding of it.

I could tell someone else what I've read, but I wonder if there is any point. There is no truth, only interpretation. Though I see a setting, I suppose it's "fine" to not see one, too.

It's a type of writing where the author puts in something, and the reader puts in a whole lot - as long as the author manages to keep the reader's attention. Which is what I think twelve was saying, about his job being making the reader get to the end. It seems (to me) that he does not consider it his job to make the subject comprehensible, which is fine.

Here is something:

What a joke, lighting votive candles at your Church
of Smoke and Shitful Sorrows. Pitiful, endless
parades of chimeras issue like froth.. Aye, tis harder,
for a camel - a cheap cigarette, perhaps, want one?
You can surround yourself with smoke like a cancer
and eat at all that surrounds us. A tissue? Wipe
your ass, wipe your eyes, dainty gloved assplug.

Want a punchline? We all wind up in a bigger hole
than you've ever been dear; we'll make it a contest,.
run, baby, run. Run, it's crush time, I'm laughing.
And we all know how lucky I am. When laughing.

Smoke and mirrors...

 

[twelveoone]

In a poem like this, some words are blank spaces you have to fill (with meaning), and some words establish a relationship between those blank spaces, serving as hints / sign posts. It's not a trail of bread crumbs, though - it's unlikely that any person will reconstruct exactly the original meaning, but by respecting the rules set down in the poem itself, you can come up with something that the author kinda intended. At least, that's my understanding of it.

I could tell someone else what I've read, but I wonder if there is any point. There is no truth, only interpretation. Though I see a setting, I suppose it's "fine" to not see one, too.

It's a type of writing where the author puts in something, and the reader puts in a whole lot - as long as the author manages to keep the reader's attention. Which is what I think twelve was saying, about his job being making the reader get to the end. It seems (to me) that he does not consider it his job to make the subject comprehensible, which is fine.

Here is something:

What a joke, lighting votive candles at your Church
of Smoke and Shitful Sorrows. Pitiful, endless
parades of chimeras issue like froth.. Aye, tis harder,
for a camel - a cheap cigarette, perhaps, want one?
You can surround yourself with smoke like a cancer
and eat at all that surrounds us. A tissue? Wipe
your ass, wipe your eyes, dainty gloved assplug.

Want a punchline? We all wind up in a bigger hole
than you've ever been dear; we'll make it a contest,.
run, baby, run. Run, it's crush time, I'm laughing.
And we all know how lucky I am. When laughing.

Smoke and mirrors...

rolls on floor...smoke and mirrors. If I wanted to do smoke and mirrors, I would done smoke and mirrors, I've do so, rather nicely in the past. There is no attempt at comprehension that would run counter to the dislocation, I removed everything except a cigarette and a tissue, both offered by the protagonist.
It is all turned on its head, there is no meaning in the poem, per se, but more the effect and thus it is something and somewhere else.
Where is the setting?
Now let's get to something else, poetry is:
Top level: A story? A description? (dislocated)
2nd level: an emotional effect? (dislocation?)
If there is a reason there is something to hold on too, the man in Kafka's trial, goes to prepare a defense, but he never finds out what he is charged with, Der Prozess.

Don't you find it funny?
That may be the 3rd level, another reversal.

 

[Tsotha]

rolls on floor...smoke and mirrors. If I wanted to do smoke and mirrors, I would done smoke and mirrors, I've do so, rather nicely in the past. There is no attempt at comprehension that would run counter to the dislocation, I removed everything except a cigarette and a tissue, both offered by the protagonist.
It is all turned on its head, there is no meaning in the poem, per se, but more the effect and thus it is something and somewhere else.
Where is the setting?
Now let's get to something else, poetry is:
Top level: A story? A description? (dislocated)
2nd level: an emotional effect? (dislocation?)
If there is a reason there is something to hold on too, the man in Kafka's trial, goes to prepare a defense, but he never finds out what he is charged with, Der Prozess.

Don't you find it funny?
That may be the 3rd level, another reversal.

At this point I have no idea what you're going on about. I wonder if we are even talking about the same smoke and mirrors. Which is a parallel to poetry itself, I guess. Depressing. Now I remember why I don't write this crap anymore.

 

[twelveoone]

At this point I have no idea what you're going on about. I wonder if we are even talking about the same smoke and mirrors. Which is a parallel to poetry itself, I guess. Depressing. Now I remember why I don't write this crap anymore.

Smoke and mirrors
no, not here