Tolerance Between Alternative Lifestyles

[VelvetDarkness]

Meh *shrugs*

There are always going to be intolerant people, wherever you go and whatever choices you make. L and I have never been into a public scene or community but even here on Lit I've had my share of Bible thumping naysayers and arrogant superdeviants.

When I came on here as a newbie, both to forums in general and kink in particular, I got all the usual crap about not being a 'true' sub because I didn't express myself with the right established forum jargon and wanted to explore gradually and set limits at first. I had a few pms from arrogant 'uberkinky' asshats deriding my BDSM Personals ad and questioning my motives.

As a LDR sub I got told by some that I was still in the shallow end of the kink pool and only cohabitation and 25/7 service was 'true' submission. I also got told that I was a walking insult to feminism and destined to burn in hell. I got told I validated abusers just by posting here about my own desires and consensual experiences. Utter unmitigated BS.

Now, as a TPE slave, people accuse me of being 'subbier than thou' for talking about my lifestyle choice. I get the usual crap from lurkers about there being no such thing as slavery in western society and that I could walk whenever I wanted with the backing of the police if necessary so who the fuck do I think I'm kidding? The fact that slavery is and will be my day to day reality and one that pervades every aspect of my relationship with L is a total irrelevance to these people. You can't reason with ignorance like that, so I don't try. I've had my SRP threads slammed as depraved and that I'm sick in the head by extension (so what else is new?) and it seems that no matter what I post or how carefully I word it, someone somewhere will take exception.

My only defence in the face of such unmitigated bigotry and ignorance is not to give a flying fuck. Nothing else is even halfway effective. I won't get into arguments with people who don't know me from adam and think deviation from 'the missionary position for no more than 5 minutes in a darkened room with one's legally married, hetero spouse' is nothing short of evil debauchery. Fuck 'em, cause I pity the poor sod who has to.

I love my life and embrace my choices. If I'm upsetting/offending nobody in the real world and breaking no laws then you can poke it up your ass sideways if you don't like it.

People like Gigi described get no hearing with me and I won't rise to the bait and get embroiled in a conflict not of my making. I'm vegan but I don't go picketing MacDonalds. Leave me the hell alone and I'll pay you the same courtesy.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It really has less to do with seeking their approval and more with them demanding tolerance of there rights/views and then refusing to extend the same courtesy to others.

double standards are the pits.

But why bother being bothered by it in the first place? I am assuming if they are intolerant of something you live, they are not an integral part of your life, so why does it matter that they aren't tolerant, or don't approve? If they are someone who is a part of your life, why even share these aspects with them unless you hope to involve them in it with you? I've got to a point in my life where I really don't care if someone thinks I am on the right track or not. Unless I see them actively attacking or making someone's life difficult in an important and seriously intrusive way, I just move on and have as little to do with them as possible, and if that is not possible, avoid topics which are going to end up in debates that go nowhere because they are not willing to be open to the choices of others. There are many more things worth using that energy on. Truth is I have yet to meet anyone who approves of or is tolerant of everything on the face of the earth as it is realistically impossible...we all make choices and have preferences based on our own sphere of reference and tastes.

Catalina

 

[Kikori]

My only defence in the face of such unmitigated bigotry and ignorance is not to give a flying fuck. Nothing else is even halfway effective. I won't get into arguments with people who don't know me from adam and think deviation from 'the missionary position for no more than 5 minutes in a darkened room with one's legally married, hetero spouse' is nothing short of evil debauchery. Fuck 'em, cause I pity the poor sod who has to.

Well, there are related alternatives I've tried with ignorant people.

Quote what Betticus quoted; a serious comment followed by a comic punch line. ("There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intollerant of other peoples' cultures, and the Dutch.")

When people become ignorant, just smile and nod or shake your head, no words. They get the self satisfaction while, through smiling and knowing you're just annoying them, you get the humor of watching them make an ass out of themselves.

Think, or if you prefer to get reactions, say something similar to: "Heh. I'd prefer a debate over an ignorant argument." Stay silent afterwards unless you like #1.

Speak in a different language, almost any phrases you can think of. I know this is entirely random, but any time you're being bashed by someone who's intolerant and ignorant, saying something so completely unrelated that goes over their heads just earns a

-class face, which is always priceless. Best done in person, I find.

To me? It's similar to realizing "Heh, they're being ignorant. That's just stupid, and sad on their parts."
Or, to anyone who watches the Boondocks and has seen the episodes where Huey describes (and no racism intended, I'm quoting) Nigga Moments, it's actually quite easy to substitute the negros involved with the different parties described in this topic usually involved, or dragged into, ignorant arguments. The video has an example of a white man just scoffing and walking away from such an argument after two black men nearly shoot each other. Symbolicly, I see it as you can let yourself get dragged into a piece of ignorance, or you can just laugh at what's happening and move on.

 

[realcoolhand]

I love this

I love that this sort of discussion can happen here. I think most of it's way beyond me, but that doesn't mean its not edifying for me and the rest of yous.

 

[realcoolhand]

maybe

In response to Kikori, I think that actually discussing things (when its possible) can help. Sometimes folks are intolerant only because they've never really considered the consequences of tolerance versus intolerance. It's possible that, if a person comes to understand that their intolerance is as offensive to others as others' beliefs are to them, they could be persuaded that fundamental fairness requires at least a general tolerance, as distinct from approval, of others' lifestyles. Thats the only way to ensure freedom of conscience for everyone, even the bigots.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Well, there are related alternatives I've tried with ignorant people.

Quote what Betticus quoted; a serious comment followed by a comic punch line. ("There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intollerant of other peoples' cultures, and the Dutch.")

When people become ignorant, just smile and nod or shake your head, no words. They get the self satisfaction while, through smiling and knowing you're just annoying them, you get the humor of watching them make an ass out of themselves.

Think, or if you prefer to get reactions, say something similar to: "Heh. I'd prefer a debate over an ignorant argument." Stay silent afterwards unless you like #1.

Speak in a different language, almost any phrases you can think of. I know this is entirely random, but any time you're being bashed by someone who's intolerant and ignorant, saying something so completely unrelated that goes over their heads just earns a

-class face, which is always priceless. Best done in person, I find.

To me? It's similar to realizing "Heh, they're being ignorant. That's just stupid, and sad on their parts."
Or, to anyone who watches the Boondocks and has seen the episodes where Huey describes (and no racism intended, I'm quoting) Nigga Moments, it's actually quite easy to substitute the negros involved with the different parties described in this topic usually involved, or dragged into, ignorant arguments. The video has an example of a white man just scoffing and walking away from such an argument after two black men nearly shoot each other. Symbolicly, I see it as you can let yourself get dragged into a piece of ignorance, or you can just laugh at what's happening and move on.

See, however you splice these responses and make them humorous, to me they all amount to not giving a shit and not taking the bigoted dissenter seriously. To argue with people like that is to care about the debate and I don't. I'm agreeing with you here, which is why I was curious that you singled out my post for rebuttal.

 

[00Syd]

I think one of the main problems is all the "one-true-wayism" and "subbier then thou" crap, which, in my humble opinion, comes from insecurity. There will never be a community without insecurity and so this will never go away. I think, like VelvetDarkness, we all just need to perfect the art of not giving a flying fuck.

 

[satindesire]

hate stems from fear and ignorance. It's human nature, and inescapable.

I ignore these kinds of people, and pity them...it's their soul on the karmic chopping block, not mine.

 

[minx1]

I've been reading this thread with interest and its made me realise that to a degree on certain things anyway, I am able to adopt the 'not giving a flying fuck' mindset.
But then there are things that I do not tolerate myself. I not only, do not tolerate them....I actively challenge them. And in that respect I am glad to be intolerant.

The example Velvet gave made me laugh at myself actually....if I was vegan I would probably demonstrate outside Maccie D's.

I guess I am saying in a rather long winded way that when it comes to others ignorance or bashing or discrimination or hate, keeping your head down or not giving a damn what people think isn't always the best option....in my opinion anyway. Sometimes challenging beliefs is good.

We see that quote (Ghandi?) - ''be the change you want to see in the world'' referred to quite a bit here and I guess I want to try and live by that kind of philosophy, to the best of my ability.

Sorry for the mini hyjack lol....you all just made me think about when intolerance and challenging is a good thing; because I do believe that sometimes it is a good thing and when it is a very negative, destructive force or simply ignorant and how subjective it all is.

Thanks for the discussion and apologies for going off on a tangent!

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I've been reading this thread with interest and its made me realise that to a degree on certain things anyway, I am able to adopt the 'not giving a flying fuck' mindset.
But then there are things that I do not tolerate myself. I not only, do not tolerate them....I actively challenge them. And in that respect I am glad to be intolerant.

The example Velvet gave made me laugh at myself actually....if I was vegan I would probably demonstrate outside Maccie D's.

I guess I am saying in a rather long winded way that when it comes to others ignorance or bashing or discrimination or hate, keeping your head down or not giving a damn what people think isn't always the best option....in my opinion anyway. Sometimes challenging beliefs is good.

We see that quote (Ghandi?) - ''be the change you want to see in the world'' referred to quite a bit here and I guess I want to try and live by that kind of philosophy, to the best of my ability.

Sorry for the mini hyjack lol....you all just made me think about when intolerance and challenging is a good thing; because I do believe that sometimes it is a good thing and when it is a very negative, destructive force or simply ignorant and how subjective it all is.

Thanks for the discussion and apologies for going off on a tangent!

There I agree with you. I have found out (the hard way) that bashing people over the head with your viewpoint it seldom, if ever, effective. My positive contribution to educating the omnivorous masses is to co-own a vegan cafe (soon to become a chain!!!) and offer people alternative choices, not holier than thou censure. It wouldn't work on me so I'm not going to pretend it'll work on anyone else. You won't get me eating pork chops by telling me that vegans are missing nutrients, that their farts are a dangerous biological weapon or that I look pasty and anaemic (I look pasty and anaemic cos my mother was a red head, not because I eschew steak). Why should I assume that wearing T shirts proclaiming that 'meat is murder' will instantly sway whoever sees them?

I'm not ranting at you, not at all and I'm sorry if it reads like that. JME and what I've learned through getting it wrong and alienating people.

 

[minx1]

There I agree with you. I have found out (the hard way) that bashing people over the head with your viewpoint it seldom, if ever, effective. My positive contribution to educating the omnivorous masses is to co-own a vegan cafe (soon to become a chain!!!) and offer people alternative choices, not holier than thou censure. It wouldn't work on me so I'm not going to pretend it'll work on anyone else. You won't get me eating pork chops by telling me that vegans are missing nutrients, that their farts are a dangerous biological weapon or that I look pasty and anaemic (I look pasty and anaemic cos my mother was a red head, not because I eschew steak). Why should I assume that wearing T shirts proclaiming that 'meat is murder' will instantly sway whoever sees them?

I'm not ranting at you, not at all and I'm sorry if it reads like that. JME and what I've learned through getting it wrong and alienating people.

Wow! Go you! I think thats amazing Velvet

and i agree with you too. I think so much about challenging is about educating. Knowing/understanding the audience you want to educate and modifying the message respectively.

I think there are occassions when educating works and I think there are circumstances that call for more direct action. Yeah...to me they all have their place. Horses for courses.
Like I said...I'm a bit off on a tangent lol I started to think about Emily Pankhurst and gay rights and the abolition of slavery and the challenges those people made to intolerence and hate.

Sorry! I think I have made the thread go off topic? My mini hyjack is over if so!

 

[Kikori]

See, however you splice these responses and make them humorous, to me they all amount to not giving a shit and not taking the bigoted dissenter seriously. To argue with people like that is to care about the debate and I don't. I'm agreeing with you here, which is why I was curious that you singled out my post for rebuttal.

I singled out your paragraph with the "not to give a flying fuck" quote because it was what I was following up with my methods such as shaking your head and laughing, or speaking in a different language. The entire post wasn't directed at you... We just have no Horizontal Rule option to divide a post neatly. >.>

 

[unfoundiamond]

I have been noticing a startling trend between alternative lifestyles. There seems to be a certain amount of hate between the groups that just baffles me. Kinksters judging other kinksters, homosexuals bashing lifestylers, fetishists bad mouthing leathers and any other combination of descent you can imagine. I really dont understand this mentality and it upsets me when I become a victim of such prejudice. We have enough hate in this world from "normal" people to turn on others within alternative lifestyles. Can someone help me understand why with all we have to endure, why must we endure hate from our brothers and sisters in freedom of lifestyle choice?

Will I make everyone make sense to you....? NO! Has this happened to me, YES!!!

So why does it happen,

People are rude and dont care for other ppls feelings
or people feel judged, and get defensive....

Being in the lifestyle doesnt imply you are polite, or that you care for others...

In fact id say this,

Being kinky is like anything else, takes all kinds.... and just because you are an outsider doesnt make you smart.... or self aware....