Unfinished stories

[lovecraft68]

It's amazing how some people will pick one or two lines from something you said and make an issue of it out of context. I was NOT attacking PennLady or Elianna, who I think are good writers. I was using them as an example. It life gets in the way of them finishing a story I have absolutely no problem with that. Family first, work second and recreational writing is last or near to it.

What I am suggesting is that LITEROTICA do something about it. They have tagged me as "virgin" because I haven't posted a story yet and I assume after I post my first story Literotica's software will change that. Then why can't they modify the software so that when it is posted it automatically gets an unfinished tag attached to it. We don't want them to have to monitor the postings to find finished works ( this is a free site and they probably don't have the resource to do that) so when the author decides the work is complete they can remove the tag themselves. They might like it anyway because it gives them a kind of 'wow, I'm done' punctuation mark to thier creation kind of like a painter does when they sign thier painting.

P.S. Please do not pick apart my statements and make interpretations of thier meaning out of context. Like all good writing everything in a paragraph belongs together.

I never thought you were attacking anyone either.

But the point is for lack of a better way to say it, enough is enough. You're now apparently looking through lit for unfinished stories to mention here.

Also you are tagged a virgin because you have not reached a certain amount of posts on the boards that has nothing to do with writing stories.

 

[sunandshadow]

Jeeze, you all make it sound like part of a story is worse than no story. I'd rather have an unfinished story to read than nothing. The unfinished ones may not be as satisfying as the finished ones, but I find the unfinished ones to actually be more imagination-sparking.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What people? Are you, like other conflating two issues? One is not finishing what you started, and I can see that happening. The other is not saying up front that the work isn't finished when you start posting it. Although folks are weighing in on what they do/don't do about the first issue, the real issue here is the second one. And, yes, I say it's a self-centered sin not to disclose up front that the series isn't finished before starting to post it.

Incompleteness is just one of dozens of things that may annoy readers. Which of them is an author obliged to disclose at the start?

I seem to recall from previous discussions that you're strongly against warning at the start for content that's likely to upset/annoy readers, which seems at odds with what you're saying here. Assuming I recall correctly, what makes the difference?

 

[aim11]

I think one of the great unfinished stories has to be The Watching by Alan Mathews....maybe one day he will it finish it.

 

[lovecraft68]

I suggested in the post above this that the author could put a slug at the beginning of the first chapter explaining it was an ongoing chapter and asking for any help they wanted in directing where it goes. When the series is finished, they could always file an edit taking the note off.

So when you suggest a "slug" basically what you're saying is that the author should say what?

Hi, this is the first chapter of my series. It is currently incomplete, but my plan is to finish it, hopefully I will do so.

Or something like that. I would think that story would most likely get a lot of "click offs" and probably some just for the hell of it one bombs.

Here is a point I would like to make to you in all seriousness. There have been a lo9t of threads and posts by authors complaining that readers don't take the time to vote comment. Now I think that's an irritant to many authors(I'm one of them) but to varying degrees.

Your response to them is that this is a free site and the reader is under no obligation to do so. I agree in theory that you are correct.

Now let me make two points. One, if the reader is not obligated to show their appreciation for the authors work(which is what voting really is in essence) than what obligation does the writer have to finish? Works both ways.

Now moving it away from that fact. I feel the reader should take a couple of seconds to vote. They just read an entertaining story for free, you can't click a button? By the same token a writer should make every effort to finish a series with only illness or r/l drama being an excuse.

But the above is how it should be. A mutual obligation. I write to provide you some fun, you reward me with a vote or comment(or tell me I suck if I did not entertain you)

But should is not what really goes on, so what we simply have is mutual apathy.

 

[LuvinWritin]

I guess I shouldn't post anymore

I guess I shouldn't post anymore nor should I submit a story because it's obvious that I can't explain things well enough.

1st. My comment about being tagged was about Lit's software not about a story tag. I was trying to say that Lit already can tag things automatically so why can't they extend that to stories as well.

2nd. I gave 2 examples of unfinished stories and now I'm being accused of looking for unfinished stories. That is absolutlely not true. I read Eliannas "Falling Into Darkness" (About 4 times I think. It's my favorite non-human story). She started to write a sequel but didn't finish. There was another story called Casey's Valentine which I like but the sequel to that seems unfinished.

I don't look for unfinished stories they're just so many out there.

But now I think the horse is dead. (Think about it. lol)

 

[lovecraft68]

I guess I shouldn't post anymore nor should I submit a story because it's obvious that I can't explain things well enough.

1st. My comment about being tagged was about Lit's software not about a story tag. I was trying to say that Lit already can tag things automatically so why can't they extend that to stories as well.

2nd. I gave 2 examples of unfinished stories and now I'm being accused of looking for unfinished stories. That is absolutlely not true. I read Eliannas "Falling Into Darkness" (About 4 times I think. It's my favorite non-human story). She started to write a sequel but didn't finish. There was another story called Casey's Valentine which I like but the sequel to that seems unfinished.

I don't look for unfinished stories they're just so many out there.

But now I think the horse is dead. (Think about it. lol)

Your suggestion about somehow tagging an unfinished story is not a bad on at all, but.....

The site sometimes ask for suggestions and people make them. Sometimes even start threads for them.

Then the site.....makes a bunch of changes no one ever asked for

 

[PennLady]

1st. My comment about being tagged was about Lit's software not about a story tag. I was trying to say that Lit already can tag things automatically so why can't they extend that to stories as well.

These are good ideas, but you have to take them to Manu or Laurel, who run the site. They don't necessarily see them in the forums.

2nd. I gave 2 examples of unfinished stories and now I'm being accused of looking for unfinished stories. That is absolutlely not true. I read Eliannas "Falling Into Darkness" (About 4 times I think. It's my favorite non-human story). She started to write a sequel but didn't finish. There was another story called Casey's Valentine which I like but the sequel to that seems unfinished.

I agree that there are lots of unfinished stories, so you don't have to look for them. But one of the two examples you gave was a story of mine, which was finished.

 

[sr71plt]

I seem to recall from previous discussions that you're strongly against warning at the start for content that's likely to upset/annoy readers, which seems at odds with what you're saying here. Assuming I recall correctly, what makes the difference?

Apples/oranges. There's a difference between defensiveness about content and not informing readers that the story isn't finished (and thus may never be--and even if it is may be a rambling mess) before it begins to post.

 

[sr71plt]

So when you suggest a "slug" basically what you're saying is that the author should say what?

Hi, this is the first chapter of my series. It is currently incomplete, but my plan is to finish it, hopefully I will do so.

Or something like that. I would think that story would most likely get a lot of "click offs" and probably some just for the hell of it one bombs.

Yes to the "it is currently incomplete"

And yes it will have many readers click off. Which is just fine if they came here to read stories and not just the beginning of stories. And, yes, I think authors don't want to do that because they don't care about the reader; they only care about the ratings/views they might lose from leading the reader along and then leaving the reader in the lurch. And yes I think that means that they don't understand that it isn't "all about them" which they choose to start including a reader in the activity.

 

[sr71plt]

1st. My comment about being tagged was about Lit's software not about a story tag. I was trying to say that Lit already can tag things automatically so why can't they extend that to stories as well.

I don't think the software exists that would be able to tell when a story either wasn't finished or wasn't ever going to be finished. And I don't think the Literotica editor could go back and make this determination either.

 

[BonnevilleFlats]

One thing that would help is an icon an author can click when he or she submits the final chapter of a multi-part story.

I think we should make a differentiation between a multi-part story or novella, a single story and a series. A series is several self-contained stories involving the same characters (or motel room). The are part of a larger unit but are not a continuous narrative.

 

[i_would]

One thing I am more and more wondering is: when is a story finished?

There are these never-ending soap operas on TV. Arguably the story is never finished, new story lines appear time and again. Some TV serials (the CSI franchise comes to mind) pretty much present complete stories in each episode, yet this seems also a never-ending series.

In books the same. Harry Potter's first book sold really well, even though there were six more to come - I don't remember whether that was announced at the first release or not. Was that story finished? Finished enough to make a book (his first year in magic school). Not completely finished (another six followed). Not many complaints from readers for it not being finished, instead rising demand for the next instalment. Now it's said to be completely finished.

Back to Lit, there are here also plenty of serials which are marked chaptered but are really independent stories following the same characters, sometimes building on top of the previous stories.

Also I have encountered stories here that were such serials, but not chaptered. That's at least as irritating, because when I like the one that I just read (or started reading) I'd like to start the series at the beginning and read them one by one, in order. That's usually most enjoyable: characters get introduced in one, and re-appear without much introduction in the next. It'd be great for that author to ask TPTB to organise them as series.

 

[Bramblethorn]

A professional writer occasionally fails to come through, but he/she is unlikely to stay a professional writers if they miss a deadline (especially a deadline for work they've been paid an advance for).

That really depends on the author. Neil Gaiman mentioned in a recent commencement speech that "People keep working, in a freelance world... because their work is good, and because they are easy to get along with, and because they deliver the work on time. And you don't even need all three. Two out of three is fine." Douglas Adams famously said "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DA's editor took to moving into his house near deadline time, to oversee his work...) And there are plenty of other big-name authors who are notorious for missing deadlines by months or years.

Still, that tolerance is very much at the discretion of the publisher, and publishers aren't always lenient - even with BNAs.

That said: Lit authors don't contract to deliver a story and they don't receive any sort of advance, so I don't think the parallel really applies.

But look at all the series products on TV. All of the episodes of a season series are not filmed or even written (or even necessarily imagined in any real detail) before the series starts airing for the season. But the episodes have to be written, completed, and delivered.

Plenty of TV series get axed mid-season, if the network decides it's not worth their while - look at 'Firefly' or 'Father of the Pride', to name but two. The network and its writers may well be contractually obliged to one another, but there's no such obligation to the viewers.

But saying "Well, I've reached a 'lag' while I work out this character/motivation/back story/plot issue in writing this story that I otherwise know the arc and end to." is a great deal different than saying "I think I'll start into some sort of story that I'm thinking maybe I'll go on and on with, and I'll just somehow pull whatever is supposed to happen next out of my ass when the time comes. Or then again maybe not." are two very different things.

They sure are, and if this thread prompts would-be authors to be more realistic about their plans to write a series I'd be delighted. (I can't say I like our chances, but we can hope ;-)

 

[geronimo_appleby]

guilty.

got one or three out there that fizzled out. might be time to yank them in.

 

[PennLady]

I don't think the software exists that would be able to tell when a story either wasn't finished or wasn't ever going to be finished. And I don't think the Literotica editor could go back and make this determination either.

This is true. This would have to be something the author does when submitting a story, such as is done at StoriesOnline.net. When you upload there, you click a button for a finished story, another for one that is not. As you upload chapters for a continuing story, you again click a button to say whether it is finished or not. With the last chapter, you click on "story is finished." So it is something provided by the site, but it's up to the author to do it, but you have to do it. You can't skip the step.

One thing I am more and more wondering is: when is a story finished?

In my mind, it's when the author decides it's finished.

In books the same. Harry Potter's first book sold really well, even though there were six more to come - I don't remember whether that was announced at the first release or not. Was that story finished?

Yes, that story was finished. If it hadn't sold, it could have stood alone, although with the reader wondering what happened next. I've read all the HPs and found them pretty self-contained (although it's been a while, maybe I'm wrong), although they were obviously all part of a larger story and reading each part made following parts make more sense.

It's a bit like Star Wars. I've read that Ep IV ended as it did because Lucas wasn't sure he'd be able to make sequels. So the story in Ep IV is self-contained, and had V and VI not been made, that story would have been complete.

 

[laffalot]

Let's not forget The Lord of the Rings movies, where you had to view all three to see the whole story.

 

[sr71plt]

There are these never-ending soap operas on TV. Arguably the story is never finished, new story lines appear time and again. Some TV serials (the CSI franchise comes to mind) pretty much present complete stories in each episode, yet this seems also a never-ending series.

In books the same. Harry Potter's first book sold really well, even though there were six more to come - I don't remember whether that was announced at the first release or not. Was that story finished? Finished enough to make a book (his first year in magic school). Not completely finished (another six followed).

I think the Soap Opera mode is a legitimate one. Soap operas are identified as such, though. The viewer (if she/he has half a brain) knows it's never going to end (except maybe in a fast wrapup when the show is canceled) and is buying into it on that understanding. As there are different forms of chaptered stories here, one being the soap opera variety (which no doubt has readers), there just should be a differentiation of them up front, I think (and is what I'm contending here), because not every reader is buying into a soap opera mode (which is obvious from the frequent complaining on the forum about neverending chaptered stories). The only reasons for there not being such differentiation would be ignorance that it would be a reader-friendly (and reader-retention) measure or just not giving a damn about the reader. I get a lot of sense of "the reader be damned, it's free and it's all about me" out of some of the responders to this thread.

On the Harry Potter books, Rowlings has said they are were all sketched out and contracted with the publisher before the first one hit the bookstores. But this doesn't really apply to this thread. The first one (and each succeeding one) was released as a complete book, with an ending. I have series of books posted here too (my "death on/in . . .) series. Each book in the series is a standalone with an ending. (and there are more in the series, both ongoing books, a prequell, and one in the middle of what is posted here that haven't been posted to Literotica). The first of these chaptered books, Death on the Rhine is the only one that was added to after I began posting it to Literotica.It had an original end before posting was started, though. It was one where a commenter said they knew how it would end (and were right), so I added two more chapter subsequently to make them wrong.

 

[sr71plt]

Let's not forget The Lord of the Rings movies, where you had to view all three to see the whole story.

Not really relevant to this thread. The Hobbit was a standalone (first published in 1937) to give geography and society to an academic study of developing a separate language from Middle English to illustrate possible progressions and redevelopment of language bases (A Middle English Vocabulary, 1922). The Lord of the Rings was an expansion on this and was completely written before any of it was published. (And it was identified as a triology from first publication.)

 

[laffalot]

Not really relevant to this thread. The Hobbit was a standalone (first published in 1937) to give geography and society to an academic study of developing a separate language from Middle English to illustrate possible progressions and redevelopment of language bases (A Middle English Vocabulary, 1922). The Lord of the Rings was an expansion on this and was completely written before any of it was published. (And it was identified as a triology from first publication.)

I was referencing the Peter Jackson movies. Someone else brought up the Harry Potter series as each individual book or movie was complete in and of itself, but the whole saga was told over a series of seven books or eight movies. With LOTR, you really needed to see all three of Jackson's movies in order to get the story. Of course, he filmed all three back to back to back, but one has to wonder if parts two and three would have been theatrically released if part one had tanked at the box office. The studio would have most likely shelved the two sequels, and the audience that did pay to see the first one would have been left hanging.

 

[sr71plt]

I was referencing the Peter Jackson movies.

Umm, OK, that's even more irrelevant to this thread.

 

[PennLady]

I was referencing the Peter Jackson movies. Someone else brought up the Harry Potter series as each individual book or movie was complete in and of itself, but the whole saga was told over a series of seven books or eight movies. With LOTR, you really needed to see all three of Jackson's movies in order to get the story. Of course, he filmed all three back to back to back, but one has to wonder if parts two and three would have been theatrically released if part one had tanked at the box office. The studio would have most likely shelved the two sequels, and the audience that did pay to see the first one would have been left hanging.

This isn't comparable to stories on Lit, though. I don't think much with movies or TV shows is, because the decisions to release or not, to cancel are not, are made by people higher up the chain and not the people who actually develop the show.

As for LOTR, I think New Line would have at least released the sequels to DVD if not the theaters. The first movie would have to have bombed to a huge degree for them not to be released at all, I think. He didn't just film them back-to-back-to-back, as I understand it; he filmed them at the same time. So one day, they might shoot scenes for Fellowship, the next for Return of the King.

That's a fun conversation, but it's not what's going on here. No one's getting paid, and it's the author who decides whether a story will be finished or not, regardless of the story's reception.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons people don't finish stories. They start and don't realize how much work goes into writing a complete story; they plan to finish but can't because they get sick, or need to take care of someone else; they might lose their job -- or get one -- and that takes time away from writing. It's also possible that (a bit like a movie or TV show) an author may complete a story, start posting, get negative feedback, and not post the rest.

I don't think it would hurt an author to inform readers of a story's status. But OTOH, as I've said, I think on a site like this you just take your chances.

 

[SecondCircle]

One thing I am more and more wondering is: when is a story finished?

There are these never-ending soap operas on TV. Arguably the story is never finished, new story lines appear time and again. Some TV serials (the CSI franchise comes to mind) pretty much present complete stories in each episode, yet this seems also a never-ending series.

In books the same. Harry Potter's first book sold really well, even though there were six more to come - I don't remember whether that was announced at the first release or not. Was that story finished? Finished enough to make a book (his first year in magic school). Not completely finished (another six followed). Not many complaints from readers for it not being finished, instead rising demand for the next instalment. Now it's said to be completely finished.

Back to Lit, there are here also plenty of serials which are marked chaptered but are really independent stories following the same characters, sometimes building on top of the previous stories.

Also I have encountered stories here that were such serials, but not chaptered. That's at least as irritating, because when I like the one that I just read (or started reading) I'd like to start the series at the beginning and read them one by one, in order. That's usually most enjoyable: characters get introduced in one, and re-appear without much introduction in the next. It'd be great for that author to ask TPTB to organise them as series.

This is pretty much the way I view it, too. I have one series that is being written now, and will definitely have a solid conclusion. Another is a "serial" as you mentioned. It is intended to follow the escapades of a certain character in the story, and for this reason, I break the individual scenes or short stories into what is perceived as chapters here on lit. Therefore, it's not a story I've "abandoned," but I write a short story in the series, then set it aside and write something fresh. Then I return to add another section, involving said character.

While it may be a different method to many here, the series I'm writing now is written and posted one chapter at a time. Don't ask how I can do this and stay on track. I simply can. I wrote the "Sex or Suicide" series this way, and it came together nicely and was well received. And finished. Never had to add the "this isn't finished" plug. I have had people say they are eager for the next chapter, and it does get posted... just not all at one time. The readers still stick around if they like the story anyway. They aren't cheated out of anything.

Just my way. In other words, everyone operates different. Some authors use outlines, for example. I read an article of Stephen King's a while back in which he states that he doesn't believe in outlines, that the story should just flow. To each their own in other words.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

I was referencing the Peter Jackson movies. Someone else brought up the Harry Potter series as each individual book or movie was complete in and of itself, but the whole saga was told over a series of seven books or eight movies. With LOTR, you really needed to see all three of Jackson's movies in order to get the story. Of course, he filmed all three back to back to back, but one has to wonder if parts two and three would have been theatrically released if part one had tanked at the box office. The studio would have most likely shelved the two sequels, and the audience that did pay to see the first one would have been left hanging.

Jackson made the three LOTR movies simultaneously.

 

[SecondCircle]

Jackson made the three LOTR movies simultaneously.

I think what he was trying to say was "would the other two films have been RELEASED if the first one had tanked," even though they were all completed. I don't think it would have been that simple though.