Vanishing Votes

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Why?

I don't mean to be obnoxious about this, but why is it "manifestly wrong?" Surely the people who own the site, who give you and me and many other people the chance to post things for public exposure and comment, surely they can set whatever effing rules they want to set? I mean, you could start a blog for your poems, if you wanted. That wouldn't have the numbers of viewers Lit does, but it would give you complete control over things. Or you could find some other site to post at that might have rules and procedures you're happier with.

This isn't your site; it's their site. Shouldn't they be allowed to run it however they see fit?.

Ultimately, you are correct, but no doubt, a heady competitor will see the flaws at some point and business may move. It is good business for Lit to see the flaws in their product.

That being said, it is unlikely to happen anytime soon as long as there are a bevy of wannabees flocking to this site. Let us face it, there is not a single place where a noobie can get exposure like Lit. My work at other places gets perhaps a tenth of the views and maybe the same amount of reads. A hundred thousand views here is appt ten thousand reads, now, that is pretty damn good exposure.

Point being, quit my bitching and use Lit for what it is--just as Lit uses us to feed a reading public--we use lit to feed budding talent. For the writer, Lit should be a tool for crafting his or her art. If you begin to let the format bother you, then you may get off of the path you have set for yourself. Now, if I can just heed my own advice and quit looking at a score that means nothing but a stroke of ego.

And Lit, listen! You have a great product that can be better. I know you probably have more than one business interest, and you are appreciated. I would be nowhere without that first awful story I wrote a year and 1/2 ago now hidden on a hard drive. But listen! Loose the frickin model T mentality and update the systems at this site.

1) Make reading a story more user friendly (Look at storiesonline).
2) Make posting stories easier (OpenSalon).
3) Change the scoring system (storiesonline or eroticstories), or at least be transparent on the sweeps system.

And that, my friends is my opinion.

Praise the Goddess of Literotica, the Kittycat *smooch, smootch* gives me a forum to bitch on in my love/hate affair (I do love that enterprising woman who I do not know).

Hmmm, maybe I will be that competitor, tis a thought for a young and wily girl. I am not ever gonna get rich off of my dirty stories *Hmmm, scratches butt, breathes deeply--planning*

 

[fridayam]

Oh Espie, I do love your youthful passion and enthusiasm

At the risk of further inflamming other people's passions, I would just like to add this. When people like Espie or I come to Lit, our first thought is to publish on the site. There it is! New poems! Almost my first poem was recommended on the Forum by the sainted Chipbutty. Even in my 50's as I am this was so wonderful--someone other than myself liked the poem enough to write about it and give it a vote. Uncertain as I was (am) this was an encouragement to write more, publish more on a site where I might get a few hundred readers--a few hundred more than if I'd never published! Even though I am not a vote hound, those little tallies did have an effect in sharpening my pencil and my mind.

But what do newbie poets hear when things go wrong? Don't bother with the site, put your poems on the Forum--the reaction of your fellow writers is more relevant than scores. So I swap my few hundred readers for a handful:why? Are the comments (and yes, votes) of passing readers less important than the kudos of fellow writers? To me this feels like a defensive and defeatist argument, and rather de haut en bas. I really believe we don't fight our corner for poetry on the site because we've already admitted defeat about it.

I totally appreciate that this is Laurel and Manu's site, but I don't think for one moment that they see themselves as Dictators. I also agree with Espie that the site needs to adapt and modernise, and one way would be to reform the voting system. We can laugh it off as much as we like, but it is how new poets come in here and get appreciated enough to want to stay.

 

[champagne1982]

I am a scatter shot poster. I'll fling up a poem wherever and whenever I feel like it. That being said, the only poemies that I've posted which are still up for voting would be the ones from the Poetry Survivor 2009 contest. I'll likely turn those off soon too. Just because I use Lit as a repository, as I do a few other blogs, forums and posting sites, I don't care what the average voter says.

The popularity contest that is lit voting holds very little interest for me. So, post a poem to a thread and if I feel like it, I may critique it, if not, I won't say anything. I got tired of the new poems review after being told my opinion shattered some folks' self-esteem. My view is if it's that fragile, you'd better get another hobby...

 

[Tzara]

At the risk of further inflaming other people's passions, I would just like to add this. When people like Espie or I come to Lit, our first thought is to publish on the site. There it is! New poems! Almost my first poem was recommended on the Forum by the sainted Chipbutty. Even in my 50's as I am this was so wonderful--someone other than myself liked the poem enough to write about it and give it a vote. Uncertain as I was (am) this was an encouragement to write more, publish more on a site where I might get a few hundred readers--a few hundred more than if I'd never published! Even though I am not a vote hound, those little tallies did have an effect in sharpening my pencil and my mind.

But what do newbie poets hear when things go wrong? Don't bother with the site, put your poems on the Forum--the reaction of your fellow writers is more relevant than scores. So I swap my few hundred readers for a handful:why? Are the comments (and yes, votes) of passing readers less important than the kudos of fellow writers? To me this feels like a defensive and defeatist argument, and rather de haut en bas. I really believe we don't fight our corner for poetry on the site because we've already admitted defeat about it.

First of all, it has never been my intent to discourage you from posting your poems through the "normal" Lit channel. My personal opinion (though, I think, not one shared by most of the other "regular" poets on the forum) is that the movement away from the general posting of poems on the Lit "New Poems" to posting them only on the forum has lead to fewer new poets being attracted to the forum.

That it was counter-productive, in fact.

What bothers me about your comment is that "when things go wrong" comment. Nothing has gone wrong. Some votes were removed from your poem by the daemon Lit uses to try and make things fairer in the voting and you're freaking out about that. They put that vote scrubbing process in to attempt to deal with Lit members whining about people one-bombing stories or "stuffing the ballot box" by voting their own stories high.

In other words, they are trying to fix a problem with the vote-removal process, not cause one.

At least, that is my interpretation. That it doesn't work well, or reliably, does not surprise me. Automating decision systems (or, more accurately, false vote detection systems) is extremely difficult.

You want to suggest a different way of handling votes to them--one that can be easily automated with the software the site is running--by all means, do so. Maybe they'll adopt it.

I am not an accomplished writer. What I personally am looking for is help in getting to be a better writer. Random readers leaving votes doesn't help me get better--at best, it gives me some feel as to whether a particular poem "works" or not, though as I've said, the sample size is so small that I don't think it really tells me anything.

What helps me be a better writer is having people whom I think are pretty good writers tell me what works or doesn't work or really, really sucks about my poem.

But, hey. Different strokes for different folks. Your goals are different from mine. But we (i.e., those who read the forum, those who administer the forum) can't change anything about how the site handles votes. Only the owners can do that, so you're complaining to the wrong people.

 

[fridayam]

Believe me, I had so much wanted to let this lie. I have said (until my ears bled) that I am not a vote-hound: what I am trying to bring to everyone's attention is that votes from legitimate people ( poets and writers on this site) are being systematically culled by some bizarre and unexplained programme. I have seen it on the votes for my poems again this week (and indeed for the past several weeks, but as I said I had intended to let it lie).

It is no good that we are fobbed off (as Esperanza Hidalgo was a few weeks ago: viz

"Thanks for the information. Per the vote issue: We have a script that tags fraudulent votes (fraud votes being anytime someone tries to vote for a story more than once by trying to get around our system). If you see a story - yours or anothers - that has suspicious-looking voting patterns, please do use the REPORT THIS STORY feature to bring it to our attention and we will run a manual check as well. In the OTHER field, tell us to check the voting. When you report suspicious voting this way, the system will send us a direct link to the story and make it much easier for us to check. Thanks again, and take care!)."


These are explanations that explain nothing. I know for a fact that the votes culled from my poems were NOT fraudulent. The weeding system on Lit stinks, and any attempt to obtain an explanation is met with obfuscation, and any pm to high command is ignored.

As I have said before, I try to put myself in the position of a newbie trying to get some feedback and morale-boosting votes. Are we serving them by ignoring this issue or do we just brush it aside with the placebo of putting one's poetry directly onto the Forum for the few and damn the multitude and damn voting?

 

[fridayam]

false post sorry

 

[YANKEE DAN]

IMO the voting is bullocks and I will tell you why. When I first started writing on here I wrote some pretty crappy stories. Well, recently I decided to put some more effort into some and make something better, and I did.

And you know what? Their scores are right around the same level of the older stories I wrote!

Now I'm attempting to not care about the votes, I request feedback in a brief Author's note and if people tell me they liked it I'm happy.

With regards to Poems, I just read the one in question and I liked it but I know why people disliked it, it doesn't rhyme. A lot of people think poems are supposed to be rap.