Wassup with races?

[Jenny _S]

Re: "you'll never understand"

I am as white as the day is long, but I feel personaly insulted sometimes by things I hear and see. It shocks me even more when others refuse to see or deny that it is there. AND IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF WHEN I AM TOLD THAT I JUST HAVE SOME MISDIRECTED FEELINGS OF GUILT ABOUT BEING WHITE.

Sweet,

Beyond the racist humiliation poured out on the non-white communities, there is another kind of racism that only a white person can feel.

That is the humiliation for being white when you see these things are going on around you. It's only been a few years since this new racism has begun to be felt in the US. We can only hope more of it is felt in a much larger way in the future.

Why? Because all facets of white society feel into the racist trap, even the scientific community. In the nineteen and early twentieth centuries there were groups called "Anthropometrists" who ran all over the world with calipers measuring cranium sizes to prove whites had bigger brains. Genetic Anthropologists tried everything to prove that Blacks were closely related to old world monkeys. Blacks were not allowed to give blood to whites because it was "inferior". I could go on and on.

And isn't that what racism is all about? A miserable attempt to prove yourself better than some other group by lowering them in your own eyes?

I'm so glad we live in he 21st century when I can be proud to know fine people like Destinie and BlackSnake. And I didn't say "black people" because we are all one race.

 

[BlackSnake]

The little cutie on my AV came by my office today, so I can properly train her how to use the Mavica she got on loan from our Presentation Department. She told me that she had talked with her mother about spending some advisory time with me. She said that her mother dated a black man or two, but it wasn't serious. She told me that her mother warned her about getting to close to me, and I told her that it was good advice because if she sat her cute little ass in my lap one more time she might feel the snake...he he.

I did tell her that she shouldn't be ashame about the way she was raised, racist or not...she a sweet kid. I add that she might want to base her judgement on individuals and not race.

Question: How many of you would fuck the babes I have, if not only for the experience?

These babes deal with racism everyday. They have a mix of both white and black friends and as a group they all see and feel it.

Most of the time I say "it takes all kinds" other times I get pissed. My babe, bless her heart speaks out even though I try to calm her and advise her that it is a very hard job to try and change the world. I also tell her to let people see who she is, that way they are forced to deal with her as a person, and not as a white chick that's married to a black man.

She doesn't act like she is a part of my culture and I love that. She has this southern draw that is her. She also has a body that will stop a truck, that a plus also

I just think that we can develop even our redneck characters a little more.

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: Re: "you'll never understand"

Sweet,

Beyond the racist humiliation poured out on the non-white communities, there is another kind of racism that only a white person can feel.

That is the humiliation for being white when you see these things are going on around you. It's only been a few years since this new racism has begun to be felt in the US. We can only hope more of it is felt in a much larger way in the future.

Why? Because all facets of white society feel into the racist trap, even the scientific community. In the nineteen and early twentieth centuries there were groups called "Anthropometrists" who ran all over the world with calipers measuring cranium sizes to prove whites had bigger brains. Genetic Anthropologists tried everything to prove that Blacks were closely related to old world monkeys. Blacks were not allowed to give blood to whites because it was "inferior". I could go on and on.

And isn't that what racism is all about? A miserable attempt to prove yourself better than some other group by lowering them in your own eyes?

I'm so glad we live in he 21st century when I can be proud to know fine people like Destinie and BlackSnake. And I didn't say "black people" because we are all one race.

I'm sorry, I know that I promised myself I wouldn't dive into this debate. I'm too inarticulate for this, and what I say could come off as completely wrong, so I chose to stay away.

But I just have to raise my objection here. Are you saying that the whole "white guilt" thing is a good thing, and that you want to see more of it? Please, the last thing we need is for pepole to start to start hating themselves too.

There is enough blame in this world as it is. No more. I'm the first one to admit that there are structures in society that needs to be changed, and that it is my god damn responsibility as a citizen and human being to do what I can to change those.

But I'll never accept that I bear any extra guilt for the simple fact that I was pooped out white, male and straight (Well, I wasn't pooped out with a sexual preference, but you know what I mean, right?) I gladly do my part in cleaning up the sins of past generations. But they are not my sins. The only things I have in common with any white racist is my skin.

Should you be ashamed of being a woman? Should BS be ashamed of being black, or Destine of being gay? I am the utter demographic "majority" sterotype, for reasons way beyond my control and free will. Should I be ashamed of this? I'd feel shame and some sort of guilt if I didn't think I lived my life according to my firm belief that we are all equal. But honestly I think I do that.

Be proud of who you are, and what you are should not matter.

Btw. the anthropometrists were 1/4 racists and 3/4 just plain wrong. The church executed pepole for thinking that the world was round. Is that my fault too, as a christian?
(I know, I'm exaggerating. Don't hit me too hard. )

/Ice - pale and proud

 

[Guest]

Ice, very well said, my friend. I couldn't agree more.

Everybody, and I mean everybody, has got to let go of the past and look to the future. That future belongs to us all, and more importantly, to our children. The catastrophic mistakes in the past were not made by us, we should not feel responsible for them. However, as Ice said, we should do all we can to rectify those mistakes, in a positive, pro-active way.

None of it was my fault, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. But, I can help mould the adults of the future, and try to prevent them from making any mistakes.

Lou

 

[destinie21]

Ice, very well said, my friend. I couldn't agree more.

Everybody, and I mean everybody, has got to let go of the past and look to the future. That future belongs to us all, and more importantly, to our children. The catastrophic mistakes in the past were not made by us, we should not feel responsible for them. However, as Ice said, we should do all we can to rectify those mistakes, in a positive, pro-active way.

None of it was my fault, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. But, I can help mould the adults of the future, and try to prevent them from making any mistakes.

Lou

Well put Lou.I agree that everyone has to let go of the [ast and shape the future. Letting go doesn't mean forgetting it just means realeasing.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Guilt and shame are not the same, for one thing shame can be directed at others while guilt can not.

People can feel shame without guilt. (ie, they know they are not to blame, but are still ashamed.)

Some people revel in there guilt, it seems and some hide from there shame. neither is good.

But I think many who insist that they bear no guilt for there ancestors actions have a deeply repressed feeling of shame wich they will do anything to avoid, including an incessant insitance of their innocents. These are usually the people (IMO) telling others that they are acting out of guilt.

Also, I think shame comes from hiding and keeping the truth buried. We'd all have a lot less 'white guilt' and shame, if we could acknowlege the full extent of racism in this country, both past and present. And by this, I do mean far beyond the currently popular "Yes, slavery and segregation was horrible, but times have changed and no person is alive today that was a slave or slave owner so lets move on."

When you become knowlegable of the facts, of the details, of the nitty gritty, so often glossed over,you can't help but feel ashamed that humans are capable of such inhumanity. When it's a group that you identify with, it is natural to take on some of that guilt personally. In this instance, I think the best thing is not to react with a backlash- 'I had nothing to do with it so its' not my fault' but to accept those feelings and explore what they may be calling you to do.

We all have some prejudices, and we all could stand an occasional self-examination. Sometimes we really do have a big ass plank in our own eye as it were.

If you do feel guilt despite trying to convince yourself that you shouldn't feel that way, be true to yourself and clear your conscious (however you feel that to be necessary) rather than repressing your emotions. No one can tell you how you 'should' or 'shouldn't' feel, that only creates more shame! WE need to deal with the reality of our emotions, and racism is one of the most emotionally charged subjects there is! Almost everyone has a feelings about it, and it's just counterproductive to tell someone that those feelings are wrong.

I hope that doesn't sound like psyco-bable and made some kind of sence. It's not always easy to articulate all of the sometimes conflicting thougths about this complex topic.

 

[sweet T]

I also would like to post something interesting. My 2 new stories were submitted, approved and posted at the same time.

These are the descriptions:

Tales of a Freshman Phenom - Star football prospect meets sorority girl.
Submitted by XSchreiber (Interracial Love) 09/24/03

Confessions of a Model Ch. 01-02 - She decides to enter the world of internet porn.
Submitted by XSchreiber (Erotic Couplings) 09/24/03


The Interracial story has been viewed 8634 times.
The Erotic Couplings story has been viewed 310 times.

I find this huge gap surprising. Now my curiousity as to what this thread originally addressed has been re-piqued. What gives?? One person preferring the first category while another prefers the second is one thing. But 27 people preferring the first while only one prefers the second is something else.

interesting, I have an interracial story and since Aug 30 it has been viewed 11575 times and only 79 votes, I have another story to post , but I'm not sure to put it under BDSM , Anal or Interracial... I think I will stick with interracial. or Anal.. only time will tell.

 

[Jenny _S]

Guilt and shame are not the same, for one thing shame can be directed at others while guilt can not.

People can feel shame without guilt. (ie, they know they are not to blame, but are still ashamed.)

That is correct, Sweet.
Looking back at my post I cannot find any where that I talked about guilt at all. I talked about the humilation of seeing racism as another kind of racism, which I believe it is.

And I will say, as time goes on more and more whites will feel the humiliation of that racism. And, Yes. That's a good thing.

 

[destinie21]

I'm happy to be part of a group who for the most part can discuss racial issues and "tensions" in a level headed manner and with for the most part well thought out posts. Even some thought provoking posts, which for me is great as I figured I wouldn't change my view on the subject. True to form I haven't changed what I know to be true in my reality however I have broadened my spectrum of thinking to try and encompass some of what I've read.
I still stand by my claim that I can understand why IR is erotic what I don't understand is the categorization.

 

[Icingsugar]

But I think many who insist that they bear no guilt for there ancestors actions have a deeply repressed feeling of shame wich they will do anything to avoid, including an incessant insitance of their innocents.

---

I hope that doesn't sound like psyco-bable and made some kind of sence. It's not always easy to articulate all of the sometimes conflicting thougths about this complex topic.

Nopes. I think it made perfect sense. And it's probably a very common behaviour.


But here's my philosophy regarding inherited shame:
I think the only thing one today should be ashamed of would be that they might be tasting the benefits of past injusticies. Injustices that you as a part of the spieces and global civilsation

There is no link between me as a person and my ancestors other than a dip in the gene pool. And many with me share that situation, I've been uprooted too many times. I started my life with a clean page. Clean, except for the fact that I lived in Sweden.

A country that built it's strong commonwealth and social welfare in such a way that a clean page like me could get the same solid education, healh care and chance in society as the people with wealth and name.

A country that built much of that greatness by being cowards and bowing down to Hitler to avoid being invaded during WW2. It gave us a great head start into the 50's when the rest of Europe was busy recovering.

So, my most recent heritage is that of Nazi-ass kissing cowards. Not something to be broud of, but I feel no kinship with these long since dead gentlemen. I just happen to be born into the society they built. Sorry 'bout that.

In the same way, however disgustingly wrong it was, all of today's America have benefitted from the slave trade. In almost every society on the planet, the welfare of today is the bittersweet fruit of the horrors of yesterday.

Btw, let me second what destitie said, It's great that we can talk so openly about thing like this here - and even disagree quite a but without starting to calw eachother's eyes out. That's kind of rare, when it comes to this.

/Ice - still not seeing who sex between different colors can be a specific turn-on, unless you have a visual contrast fetishism.

 

[Icingsugar]

Looking back at my post I cannot find any where that I talked about guilt at all. I talked about the humilation of seeing racism as another kind of racism, which I believe it is.

And I will say, as time goes on more and more whites will feel the humiliation of that racism. And, Yes. That's a good thing.

Ah. I might have misread you a bit. No worries. I'm glad I got to vent what I did anyway. Still standing by it.

What you call "another kind of racism" and humiliation, I'd call embarrassment for my fellow human beings. When in the presence of blatant racism, sexism, gaybashing and general dumb intolerance, I always tend to react in the same way. Embarrassment from the fact that there are human beings that can think in such dumbass ways.

And somewhat ashamed of that I don't have the guts to just walk up and punch them in the face.

 

[Lovepotion69]

I wrote a long post the other night...

...but of course Lit logged me off. I keep forgetting it does that when it's been inactive for a while.

Was at the Gothenburg Book Fair today, and one publishing house has a book titled "Svartskallar - Sa funkar vi". Svartskalle = derogative word for people with dark hair. As one of the speakers later said; it can be seen as the Swedish equivalent for the N-word.
The book holds personal tales from various Svartskallar in Sweden. Known ones. I skimmed through the book and it's interesting, very personal from what the authors have experienced in daily life. Two of the authors, and one publishing representative later had a talk based on the book. They asked questions I've thought about myself lately. Quite a few things I could relate to. One author writes; "It's only in Sweden you will be referred to as second generation immigrant, and looked upon as a first generation one."
One of the authors told us how he was born and bread in Sweden, mom Swedish and dad Nigerian, but he never knew his dad until later on. He's pretty much like me, felt Swedish growing up. Then one day when going to the unemployment agency to talk about starting his own business, the contact person said;"Oh, great! We've just got extra resources for people like you!"
"People like me?"
"Yeah, the underprivileged. Women and immigrants, you know."
"But, I'm not an immigrant. I was born here. "
"Well, AMS has changed the regulations, you're now considered a second generation immigrant, and can get extra help blah blah."
He ended his story with the words;"For 35 years I've been Swedish. Then one day I woke up and had become an immigrant."

Questions thrown into the audience were; What is being Swedish? When are you an immigrant? How many generations back? When are you considered a Svartskalle? (they had a girl whose dad was from Chile, but she looked very Swedish) Are you automatically being attributed with certain labels due to your ethnicity? Is the only way to go against those labels by being "top of the class"? It was an interesting talk. Very casual too, but I recognised a lot.

We all have preconceptions against others. It may be the way they dress, their job, their social-economic status, how they talk, where they went to school, the colour of their skin, their nationality, their age, their gender etc. There's no way going around that. We can all dream about a perfect world - it won't happen.
Though I may find my mom being overprotective at times, I understand her reasoning, and fear, when she raised me to never get out of the house wearing "respectable clothes". She's experienced the looks, the disrespect and so on when arriving in Sweden. She learnt that if she spoke English and was well dressed, she was met differently. It's a game, and in a way it sucks to play buy the rules, but we all do it to an extent. You may dress in Prada because you want to be perceived as classy, rich whatever. I dress in Prada so that nobody will think I'm some uneducated, wellfare begging immigrant in the department store to steal.

/LP
P.S I don't own any Prada stuff. Just Kookaii blazers..

 

[XSchreiber]

I still stand by my claim that I can understand why IR is erotic what I don't understand is the categorization.

I follow you.
Why are stories of people of different races (same species, different looks) placed in their own categories? Here are some of my guesses:
1. The people who created this site knew that people would come looking specifically for stories where such people come together and have sex. The presence of this category would help draw these people to the website. This explanation, however, is just a dodge of the question.
2. Following the idea that two people of different races having sex is no big deal, and henceforth there is no reason for these stories not to be categorized in erotic couplings, anal or others, I can only think of one reason for the categorization: A seperation. Since Interracial Coupling is innudated (sp?) with bad stories (stereotypes) of the type mentioned earlier, perhaps the category is to keep such stories out of way, so we'll know where NOT to look for quality erotica.

Okay, that last one was a bit of a stretch, but maybe from now on I'll post any such story in whatever other category applies. Then again, considering how many more views my Interracial Coupling story is receiving (over my Erotic Coupling story), maybe I'll start posting ALL my stories there.

BTW, I'm posting a story in the Incest category now, and I'm betting it will quickly eclipse the views of the Interracial story (and I'm not trying to take credit for amount of views. Really, doesn't amount of views only reflect a combination of site traffic the day of posting, story title and description, and category?)

 

[Icingsugar]

Re: I wrote a long post the other night...

...but of course Lit logged me off. I keep forgetting it does that when it's been inactive for a while.

Hint: you chould be able to salvage lengthy texts. Hit the browser's back button until you are at the posting form again. Your text will be there. Copy, log in to post again, and paste the text right in. Post. Live happily ever after.

/Ice - works for me, at least

 

[Lovepotion69]

Ok, my 2 cents on the whole debate if there should be an interracial category.

In a way it shouldn't, the same way there needn't be an anal, BDSM, Celebrities, gay, lesbian, group sex, etc category. After all, all stories could easily well fit into the Erotic Coupling. There are heaps of cross-overs.
I never read about any debates if there should be a gay/lesbian category. Does that not denote separation? The reason Lit does it? Because one doesn't want to upset all the people who aren't into it. Therefore creating a separate category, so the poor reader won't read an erotic coupling story, and suddenly realise it's two men/women shagging. The other reason could be because as an editor, Laurel probably realised many were writing stories with certain focuses, and then decided to come up with another category, just because it's easier to archive them then. That's usually how it goes when you've got too much stuff, right? I'm guessing that's what Laurel thought when considering the interracial category, as well as other ones. The Erotic Horror category probably came into play this way because a few people starting writing a different type of stories that were profiled a bit differently.

I'm personally getting a bit fed up with the whole discussion if there should be an interracial category or not. Believe me, I'm all for fucking whoever you want, no matter the ethnicity, colour of skin, nationality, age, or sex. It's just that I find too many on Lit are trashing the interracial category, with the comment "but there's nothing special about two races screwing", and then give the usual politically correct answers. And yes, it's the contrast of the skin that I find aesthetically pleasing.
Yes, there are a load of crap stories in the category. Yes, some are blatantly racist. Majority are sterotypes. But like so many people in this forum have said in regards to various categories; You make the category into what you want. We can't stop people from writing about black men with 12" cocks, the same way we can't stop them from writing whatever stereotypes and cliches there are within the gay/lesbain/BDSM/incest/celebrities/non-human etc categories. It may make it harder to find the quality stories, but they're there. And if you want something better, then write it yourself. What's the point in just complaining?
If you're not turned on by a certain category/fantasy for whatever reason, nobody's telling you to read it. Your choice. I won't trash you for it. The categories that are getting the most trashing on Lit are Incest and Interracial. Everyone seems to believe you'd actually commit incest, or are a racist because you read the categories. Some might, can't deny that, but hardly every reader! To me, it's all fiction. Imagination. Fantasies. Fiction. It's not real. It's a form of role playing. Every story I read is to me just a fantasy scenario.

Ok, I'm done.
/LP

 

[Karen Kraft]

Brazil Nuts

Eenie meenie miny mo
Grab a nigger by his toe
If he hollers let him go
Eenie meenie miny mo

Is how I've witness that particular rhyme being used in a racist fashion...

It's not about race at all. It's about instituting a proper protocol for random sampling and selection! It goes something like this:

Eenie Meenie Minee Mo
Catch a nigger by its toe
If it hollers make it pay
Fifty dollars every day;
My - mother - told - me - to - pick -
the - very - best - one, and ---
That one is.......... [at this point the selection is made]

The selection process cannot be done without sophisticated high-tech machinery, however. In this case, a jumping rope was required. The only kids I ever heard singing/chanting that were female and black (and REAL skinny -- from jumping rope not from malnutrition).

There is a difference between racism and racial / ethnic insults, don't you think?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

And if you want something better, then write it yourself.

And that answers the question why I'm writing...

 

[cahab]

Svenskaflicka: Seriously, I like the Interracial section, because I prefer black men.

I'm sure you've already said somewhere, but why? Isn't that a racist statement, being as all-encompassing as it is?

BlackSnake: The fact is, a lot of white kids are tought that black people are scrum.

Sorry, BS, but that typing error made me giggle. You have to be english. Ask Ogg. Are the white kids also taught that they play with odd-shaped balls?

I'm sorry, I'll stop now.

Seriously, i just wrote a story with sex between my main character and a semi-regular character, who happens to be black. Because i like to spread the wealth, I submitted it to interracial rather than loving couples. I don't actually call him black, though I do describe the colour of his skin. I do find it a little, no, a lot bizarre that there is a category for it. After all, how far down do you subdivide?

Black or white?

East or west?

English as first or second language?

First or second generation?

Jewish or muslim?

Stupid or clever?

Evolutionist or creationist?

Rich or poor?

Sensible or just downright fucking silly?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm sure you've already said somewhere, but why? Isn't that a racist statement, being as all-encompassing as it is?

What's encompassing? *too lazy to open dictionary*

Anything can be INTERPRETED racistically, if you want. I spent last night pointing out the racistic messages hidden in "Babe - Pig In the City" to my mum. She didn't see them.

As for my attraction to black men... I get atracted to most sorts of men, really. White, black, Asian, Kurds... You name it. I simply like black men BEST, because I like the way they look.
Some gals go wet when they see tall, blond vikings with broad shoulders. Some gals swoon when a guy adjust his intellectual-looking glasses and reads Kafka to them. Me, I turn around in the street when I see big, full lips, a wide, round nose, and a glittering white smile in a chocolate-colored face.

It's not a matter of race, just a matter of looks. To me, that's about as racistic as someone having a fetish for freckles.

 

[OldnotDead]

. . .
As for my attraction to black men... I get atracted to most sorts of men, really. White, black, Asian, Kurds... You name it. I simply like black men BEST, because I like the way they look.
Some gals go wet when they see tall, blond vikings with broad shoulders. Some gals swoon when a guy adjust his intellectual-looking glasses and reads Kafka to them. Me, I turn around in the street when I see big, full lips, a wide, round nose, and a glittering white smile in a chocolate-colored face.
. . .

OK, Svenskaflicka, since you seem to have a handle on some of the 'swoony' facets or male attractiveness to females, perhaps you can make a suggestion where one goes to find the list of females that swoon over older, inept, average size, average looks, average sorts?

OnD

 

[Belegon]

I just read all six pages...

I just wanted to make some general observations. I'd like to think that racism was a dead issue but I know that it is not.

When my buddy Jamie invited me to be one of his groomsmen a couple of years ago I was thrilled to accept. I did not know he was going to take so much flack about it and am even more proud to have him as a friend now than I was then. He responded to the comments of "What is HE doing in the wedding party?" with a solid "The same damn thing I did in his, you got an issue?". My skin color made me stand out at first but thru J's insistence that I be accepted that color became less of an issue over the two days we were in Vegas for the wedding and by the time of the reception had ceased to be commented upon. Only a few of the older generation continued to resist the idea, although the brides father felt I should have paid for my own room in Vegas. Tavaaka and J would not hear of that of course.

Look, almost any door swings in both directions. When I married into a Filipino family, my whiteness was an issue. Iwas lucky enough to be raised in such a way that it was never an issue to my parents what the heritage of my friends or family. I will do the same with my kids. THAT IS OUR ONLY LONGTERM SOLUTION!

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm happy to be part of a group who for the most part can discuss racial issues and "tensions" in a level headed manner and with for the most part well thought out posts. Even some thought provoking posts, which for me is great as I figured I wouldn't change my view on the subject. True to form I haven't changed what I know to be true in my reality however I have broadened my spectrum of thinking to try and encompass some of what I've read.
I still stand by my claim that I can understand why IR is erotic what I don't understand is the categorization.

without the categorization, without there being a specific section on lit. for IR stories, how would people who are specifically looking for such stories find what they seek, without getting a whole bunch of other "stuff" in the process?

IR is a section i like, although there are few stories of the kind that interest me....as a young black submissive woman who grew up in the rural southern u.s., the aggressive white man forcing himself on or completely degrading the younger, meek, shy, powerless black girl type stories are my fave...but, those are VERY few and far between. the most prevalent seem to be the big black mandingo with lil miss innocent and married lily white. it's a more acceptable reality. but why do the IR stories i do like appeal to me? not because of any physical differences...black people in america come in all colors, from barely vanilla to ebony black, so if i want a color contrast, or a hair texture contrast, i don't have to go outside my own race. for me it's the cultural stigma still alive and well in the majority of the u.s. towards white male/black female sexual or romantic relationships. in many places, if a black woman will be so bold as to be involved with a white man, well then he better treat her like a princess and basically worship the ground she walks on...erasing all the mistreatment and abuse of generations past. what is definitely NOT accepted and NOT tolerated outside of perhaps southern cali, is a black woman being submissive to a white man, a white man Dominating a black female. i have the very tame fantasy of one day being led throughout various shops and down streets in a particularly nice area of washington, d.c., by collar and leash by a white man. no revealing clothing, no fondling in public, just being led by him, walking behind him, etc. but i doubt this fantasy will ever be safe to make reality...why? because the man would likely be beaten within an inch of his life by those seeing us and feeling he's racist and "abusing" me. so...i cling to that taboo, and i for one am glad there's an IR section...if anything, i think the IR section should have sub categories, with particular races and genders (like a black girl/white man section...*grin*)